CFW

"Hearing that soap and water is best, is a meaningless statement." Geeez, Spygirl, why do you have to get so nasty with your comments. As it happens, Kathie is a nurse. Can't you accept another's suggestion without getting into a tiff? Some of your posts are helpful and pleasant & then you go off on these tirades. So unnecessary. What do you do for a living? Perhaps that colors your attitude....

Kathie

Aloha! It's good to see the Hawaii enclave out in full force tonight.

laurieco

You're asking for it Kathie ;-)

laurieco

I should add, that one of the doctors I "heard" it from was at the ritzy travelers medical doctors clinic I go to in midtown Manhattan. I would trust their opinion as just a wee bit more knowledgeable.

glorialf

Laurie -- if it's the same ritzy clinic I went to in midtown NY I wouldn't believe anything they said. They tried to put me on larium although I told them I had a condition that would have made it dangerous. And they were 100% wrong. Fortunately before I took the drug I checked with my internest and a specialist who were both horrified.

laurieco

I doubt it's the same place. They've nevr even suggested Lariam to me. My husband takes it but he goes to a different place for his pre-trip consultations. How long ago were you in NY?

glorialf

I lived in NY from 168-1997. They gave me this advice in 1992 when I was going to Vietnam.

TexasSlim

Couldn’t agree more regarding washing hands, but I’m totally unconvinced about cooked poultry. So I ask: what if someone produced a sick chicken that tested positive for H5N1 avian flu and killed the sucker and chopped it up and deep fried some of it, and stir-fried some of it, and boiled some of it, and all of it was well cooked, then served up. Would you eat it? Hell No! Only a lunatic would take a risk eating that foul fowl. Why take a risk?

laurieco

Gloria, even if it wee the same place, I'm sure the personnel has changed. The place I go to has always given me very good advice and I've never had any problems with them. They do a lot of research and are very well informed and always pass that info on.

TexasSlim, you're correct, I would not knowlingly eat a bird I knew was infected, even well cooked. I don't think I would enjoy it. But on the other hand, I was just in Malaysia and ate a lot of chicken. From what is known, if it's cooked well, there is no danger and I'll continue to eat it until/unless something to the contrary comes out. But, if you aren't comfortable eating poultry, then by all means, you shouldn't. Nobody should do anything they aren't comfortable with.

easytraveler

TexasSlim: from the Newsweek article mentioned by Janedee above:

"...a family in Vietname whose flock was ordered destroyed when it showed signs of avian flu - so they frugally slaughtered and ate the birds that didn't seem sick. Within a week they were violently ill. (They survived)."

The article doesn't mention how the chickens were cooked, but it really doesn't seem to matter. The family could have gotten sick from handling the birds or they could have gotten sick from eating the birds. It's not clear. This flu is such a will-o-the-wisp, so hard to grab ahold.

The article also says: "After incubating for eight years in East Asia....the H5N1 variant of avian flu suddenly and mysteriously expanded its range this year."

Well, I had a confab with my travelling companions and we've decided to err on the side of caution and postpone the trip until further information is forthcoming.

To all you living in or travelling to Asia, we will pray that the flu gives you a wide berth.

glorialf

Well the flu is now in Europe and I suspect will be in the U.S. soon so from my perspective it won't much matter where you live. And Thailand at least has plenty of the tamiflu which the U.S. does not have. Based on how the thai government responded to the tsunami and how the US government responded to katrinia, I figure I'm probably better off in thailand if there is a pandemic. Or at least I'll worry if and when this turns into something that is spread from human to human. Before then I'll go by the CDC and eat well cooked eggs and poultry and won't worry about it. In a world where there are so many things to fear (I mean the US has mad cow disease but people are still eating meat) I just won;t give in to those fears. As I have often said -- I'm not afraid of dying but I am afraid of not living because of fear.

But as we have all said everyone has to know their comfort zone. Just base it on facts -- not a hysterical media.

laurieco

Well said Gloria. Maybe the answer to the flu/mad cow/terorism problem is to go live in a cave and only eat what you grow. I can't live in such fear. I understand taking precautions and I do so, but I can't take it to such extremes that it impinges on my daily living.

Kathie

A very good article from the NYT on travel and the avian flu.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/30/travel/30prac.html

glorialf

Kathie-- I was just about to post the same article. Finally a clear and non hysterical article that sticks to the facts. What interests me is that the bird flu was in thailand last year but because our media didn't pick up on it no one cared.

laurieco

You know, when I was just in Malaysia, the bird flu wasn't even on the radar over there. The big story was dengue fever. There are outbreaks all over and THAT was what the government over there was concerned with. There were even tv commercials on how to protect oneself from getting dengue. It makes one wonder why, all of a sudden, our gov't is so interested in bird flu. Maybe I have an overly suspicious mind where this administration is concerned, but I can't help but wonder, if things here were going smoothly, would the bird flu be such a big story?

pat

Got my Nursing News magazine in the mail yesterday. Interesting, the bird flu has been around for a long time. There was an outbreak in the trenches during WW1. The article said "OK in the morning, sick at noon, and dead by dark" I don`t remember how many died, but a lot. It was gone by the next year I believe.

glorialf

Laurie-- there were just commentators saying that B's speech next week on avian flu while much needed was also the sort of thing he should do politically to change the subject and to look like he's on top of stuff. I also wonder why the hysteria came along right after the katrina fiasco.

Kathie

Pat, you are referring to the huge flu epidemic of 1918. It killed more people than combat did in WWI. Note that it is not the same avian infleunza virus that is of concern now; these viruses mutate constantly. But there is concern that the current avian flu virus may be similar in some ways to that virus.

All of the human influenza viruses come to us via animals, typically pigs or birds. Southern China and SE Asia are considered the "incubators" for human infleunza viruses.

It is because of the constant mutation that we have new formulations for flu shots every year. Flu epidemics are cyclical, and every so often there is a pandemic. We are "overdue" (statsitically) for a pandemic. Most of the time these pandemics are deadly for the very young and the very old. The pandemic of 1918 was deadly for the young healthy adults. Researchers are concerned about possible parallels between the pandemic of 1918 and what would happen if the avian flu virus mutated to allow person to person transmission.

pat

The article says Bird flu was identified in Italy more than 100 years ago.Recently, scientists linked it to a strain that jumped from birds to humans in 1918 and killed young healthy fighting men at the time, during ww1. I`m sure we are referring to the same outbreak. It killed 50 million people world wide. There was an outbreak in Hongkong in 1997 too, that went from chickens to humans, but I don`t remember hearing anything about that. mutation is a big problem.

Kathie

Pat, sorry, I wasn't clear. Yes, we are talking about the same outbreak in 1918, but I was just making the distinction that flu in 1918 and the Avian flu now are not the same virus, but are in the same family of viruses.

The outbreak of the Avian flu in Hong Kong in 1997 appears to be the first appearance of this particular strain of Avian flu. It was not widely publicised in the US, though the public health officials were saying the same thing then that they are now. The concern was that the virus would make the leap to being transmitted from person to person. The poultry markets in Hong Kong were all closed down and sanitized and hundred of thousands of chickens and ducks were killed in Hong Kong and in the nearby provinces to try to stop the virus.

In subsequent years, this strain reappeared in southern China and VN, and spread into Thailand and Cambodia and other countries in SE Asia (now identified in Malaysia and Indonesia, probably in Burma as well). It has appeared several times in the last few years after it looked to be under control.

It's important to remember that this strain has not yet mutated to allow for person to person transmission, which is what would have to happen for an epidemic. The cases in Hong Kong in 1997 were chicken to person transmission, as have all of the cases since with a few exceptions of very close person to person contact.