AVIAN BIRD FLU
Oct 27th, 2005, 07:39 PM
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Remember this time last year thirty-two tigers died of H5N1 avian flu at the Sri Racha Tiger Zoo after fed raw chicken carcasses. And on so many occasions in Thailand & Malaysia I've been served cooked chicken that turned out to be uncooked inside. In addition some Thai regional dishes use uncooked or partially cooked meats.
So my personal survival instincts tell me to give all poultry a wide berth for the time being.
So my personal survival instincts tell me to give all poultry a wide berth for the time being.
Oct 27th, 2005, 10:54 PM
#22
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You know, TexasSlim, you raise some good points about chicken not being thoroughly cooked on the inside-I don't happen to eat meat, but for those so inclined to eat chicken in S.E. Asia, partic. in Thailand and Vietnam, then they would be well advised to check the meat before digging in for a bite.
However, since I will be in BKK over the New Year's holidays, I was thinking about the egg factor, since I do eat those, and how they could show up in any variety of foods, such as sweets, and may also be undercooked (am thinking of the use of egg whites in various recipes, for example).
I'm not too concerned about this-I might even eat an omelet at the BKK Marriott (then again, maybe not).
However, the two recent cases of bird flu occurred not far from BKK in Kanchanaburi province, which area had a number of sick chickens (and can you believe this? One farmer who was handling his neighbor's sick chickens BRAGGED to his neighbor that he had eaten a sick one one before, no problem, and was going to do it again! The neighbor was aghast, told him not to, but the farmer went ahead and ate it anyway, then died promptly two days later! His young son was also given this diseased chicken, and also contracted avian flu, but with early intervention with Tamiflu, the son has been recovering in hospital. Unbelieveable.
Kanchanaburi is of course a tourist destination, the area where the River Kwai tours are located, so I'm not sure I'd want to venture there and eat something that could have egg products within it, just to be on the safe side. The disease has also showed up in wild sparrows now just outside BKK.
But I have a fair amount of confidence that the Thai Govt. is taking aggressive steps (at this point) to stay on top of the situation-they have stationed some 900,000 personnel around the country to do house to house checks for infected people, are going after the sub-standard chicken farms, and have stockpiled Tamiflu (which may only be partially effective in combatting symptoms). Since I'll be at the Marriott I'm sure they will have signs indicating what they have done to ascertain the safety of its egg products, but I still do plan to monitor foods that contain egg products, and stay away from most of it.
However, since I will be in BKK over the New Year's holidays, I was thinking about the egg factor, since I do eat those, and how they could show up in any variety of foods, such as sweets, and may also be undercooked (am thinking of the use of egg whites in various recipes, for example).
I'm not too concerned about this-I might even eat an omelet at the BKK Marriott (then again, maybe not).
However, the two recent cases of bird flu occurred not far from BKK in Kanchanaburi province, which area had a number of sick chickens (and can you believe this? One farmer who was handling his neighbor's sick chickens BRAGGED to his neighbor that he had eaten a sick one one before, no problem, and was going to do it again! The neighbor was aghast, told him not to, but the farmer went ahead and ate it anyway, then died promptly two days later! His young son was also given this diseased chicken, and also contracted avian flu, but with early intervention with Tamiflu, the son has been recovering in hospital. Unbelieveable.
Kanchanaburi is of course a tourist destination, the area where the River Kwai tours are located, so I'm not sure I'd want to venture there and eat something that could have egg products within it, just to be on the safe side. The disease has also showed up in wild sparrows now just outside BKK.
But I have a fair amount of confidence that the Thai Govt. is taking aggressive steps (at this point) to stay on top of the situation-they have stationed some 900,000 personnel around the country to do house to house checks for infected people, are going after the sub-standard chicken farms, and have stockpiled Tamiflu (which may only be partially effective in combatting symptoms). Since I'll be at the Marriott I'm sure they will have signs indicating what they have done to ascertain the safety of its egg products, but I still do plan to monitor foods that contain egg products, and stay away from most of it.
Oct 27th, 2005, 11:15 PM
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Uh Oh! Aust's govt travel warning has just been issued for all countries we'll visit (except Sri Lanka) in Nov/Dec 2005. Guess that negates our travel insurance. Better the flu than a terrorist's bomb. I wonder which demise will be the quickest & least painful? And we may not be allowed to re-enter OZ if we've travelled to countries where infections are rife. OMG! We'll be zombies, doomed to travel the world as bird flu evacuees! Like the lovers in Love in the Time of Cholera, my favourite book.
Oct 28th, 2005, 04:18 AM
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That's a good point about eggs Spygirl, Thais put eggs in so many things, even if you don't eat chicken you'll still get eggs in fried rice, fried noodles, pat thai, nearly all those tasty Thai sweets have eggs in them. However, I think attempting to totally avoid eggs might be carrying precaution to extremes but I would certainly advise anyone against eating poultry meat. To me that’s just good common sense in the current climate. Anyway, not our problem, I don’t eat meat either.
Oct 28th, 2005, 06:56 AM
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Remember that at this point, there is no clear evidence to suggest that eating cooked eggs or poultry confers any risk of contracting the Avian flu. The only case that appears clear cut was the fresh duck blood. Even the case of the man eating the sick chicken in Kanchanaburi, health authorities believe the route of transmission was not via eating, but via handling the sick bird and exposure to the droppings (which is the usual and well-documented route).
You can keep up to date on the developments in the Avian flu at the cdc website: www.cdc.gov/travel
You can keep up to date on the developments in the Avian flu at the cdc website: www.cdc.gov/travel
Oct 28th, 2005, 11:51 AM
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LOL...now why would I eat bird poop? My question was totally valid. You stated
that health authorities believe the route of transmission was not via eating, but via handling the sick bird and exposure to the droppings
It won't be the first time that a birt had pooped on me. What would I do in that case? Should I be concerned?
that health authorities believe the route of transmission was not via eating, but via handling the sick bird and exposure to the droppings
It won't be the first time that a birt had pooped on me. What would I do in that case? Should I be concerned?
Oct 28th, 2005, 12:15 PM
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Sorry, Dan, I tought you were joking. I didn't mean to belittle your question. We get so little sun in Seattle we have to laugh when we can.
If a bird poops on you wash it off. You want to have as little contact with the bird poop as possible. Wash all exposed areas with soap and water. Have clothing with bird poop on it laundered in hot water, first removing as much of the poop as possible. Wash your hands thoroughly after handling the soiled clothing.
One of the best ways to prevent transmission of any flu, not just the bird flu, is hand washing. Basically, to contract the Avian flu the virus must get from the bird to you via a route that allows the virus to stay actuve. The virus is present in the bird poop and in mucous discharge from the bird, and in the blood. It has to get to your mucous membranes, typically nose or eye or mouth. The way that usually happens is by the person touching something that is contaminated with the virus and then touching their own eye, nose, mouth or something they are putting into their mouth.
If a bird poops on you wash it off. You want to have as little contact with the bird poop as possible. Wash all exposed areas with soap and water. Have clothing with bird poop on it laundered in hot water, first removing as much of the poop as possible. Wash your hands thoroughly after handling the soiled clothing.
One of the best ways to prevent transmission of any flu, not just the bird flu, is hand washing. Basically, to contract the Avian flu the virus must get from the bird to you via a route that allows the virus to stay actuve. The virus is present in the bird poop and in mucous discharge from the bird, and in the blood. It has to get to your mucous membranes, typically nose or eye or mouth. The way that usually happens is by the person touching something that is contaminated with the virus and then touching their own eye, nose, mouth or something they are putting into their mouth.
Oct 28th, 2005, 12:28 PM
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The current Newsweek has a lengthy article about avian flu -- very informative, but I always check the CDC web site before going to certain parts of the world. I'm going to Myanmar in January -- no cases were noted there, yet.
Oct 28th, 2005, 02:04 PM
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A few thoughts-first, Lyndie-I had thought that very thing, terrorist bomb or avian flu? (Gee, we must be real suckers for punishment, those of us who love our S.E. Asia!)
Would be interested to see what is in the OZ travel advisory-so I'll have a look at some point.
One thing we know here, though, one's chances of dying or being seriously injured in a terrorist attack in Bali are FAR FAR greater at the present time than the risk of getting avian flu (assuming one doesn't do the incomprehensible, like eat/handle sick chickens).
But this "no clear evidence" point, IS the point, isn't it? The fact that health authorities, i.e., WHO, CDC, etc., DON'T know and CAN'T say definitively that human transmission of the virus will not occur even with thorough cooking of "sick" birds, means that it is entirely possible that the virus IS transmitted through eating alone. The farmer's child who contracted the avian flu, as far as I know-(and am not sure), only ATE a sick bird, did not handle one. And who wants to test that theory? If you are in Kanchanaburi province, and you have watched someone char a chicken beyond recognition, yet it could have come from a "sick" flock, are you still going to chow down? I'm thinking NOT!
And the egg factor is a bit worrisome. My preference is for Thai street food-I like to eat my way up one end of the street to another, sliced papaya, pad thai, sweets, tom yam gung, you name it-great food, and a whole meal can be had for the equivalent of US2.00. As long as it's not meat, I'll probably eat it. So this is something to consider.
And yes, the bird droppings are also a good point-avoiding bird droppings to the extent possible, and areas where there are concentrations of bird droppings is most advisable.
But as my Dr. says, (and he is one of the top internists in the nation-really) you have a fighting chance to keep away regular influenza if, instead of hand washing (which does NOT get rid of most germs unless you wash for more than 20 sec. using soap and hot water-and who does that, partic. while on travel?) is to use HAND SANITIZER. Folks, this stuff really works. For a year now, I have been using this during the day at work, sometimes wiping down my keyboard, etc. and whenever I've been on trips this past year, I've got the small bottles in my purse, use it before I eat, etc. For the first time in a year, I have not (knock on wood) had so much as a cold.
So for me, that's the answer. Multiple bottles of hand sanitizer used repeatedly throughout the trip, and using caution concerning egg products. (I am not saying that I'm going to avoid eating eggs-I know I won't be able to do that, as I love my sweets-but it will be discriminate, whereas pre-avian flu crisis I would have been far less choosy).
Fresh duck's blood...ummm, a tasty treat for Halloween trick or treaters, no?
Would be interested to see what is in the OZ travel advisory-so I'll have a look at some point.
One thing we know here, though, one's chances of dying or being seriously injured in a terrorist attack in Bali are FAR FAR greater at the present time than the risk of getting avian flu (assuming one doesn't do the incomprehensible, like eat/handle sick chickens).
But this "no clear evidence" point, IS the point, isn't it? The fact that health authorities, i.e., WHO, CDC, etc., DON'T know and CAN'T say definitively that human transmission of the virus will not occur even with thorough cooking of "sick" birds, means that it is entirely possible that the virus IS transmitted through eating alone. The farmer's child who contracted the avian flu, as far as I know-(and am not sure), only ATE a sick bird, did not handle one. And who wants to test that theory? If you are in Kanchanaburi province, and you have watched someone char a chicken beyond recognition, yet it could have come from a "sick" flock, are you still going to chow down? I'm thinking NOT!
And the egg factor is a bit worrisome. My preference is for Thai street food-I like to eat my way up one end of the street to another, sliced papaya, pad thai, sweets, tom yam gung, you name it-great food, and a whole meal can be had for the equivalent of US2.00. As long as it's not meat, I'll probably eat it. So this is something to consider.
And yes, the bird droppings are also a good point-avoiding bird droppings to the extent possible, and areas where there are concentrations of bird droppings is most advisable.
But as my Dr. says, (and he is one of the top internists in the nation-really) you have a fighting chance to keep away regular influenza if, instead of hand washing (which does NOT get rid of most germs unless you wash for more than 20 sec. using soap and hot water-and who does that, partic. while on travel?) is to use HAND SANITIZER. Folks, this stuff really works. For a year now, I have been using this during the day at work, sometimes wiping down my keyboard, etc. and whenever I've been on trips this past year, I've got the small bottles in my purse, use it before I eat, etc. For the first time in a year, I have not (knock on wood) had so much as a cold.
So for me, that's the answer. Multiple bottles of hand sanitizer used repeatedly throughout the trip, and using caution concerning egg products. (I am not saying that I'm going to avoid eating eggs-I know I won't be able to do that, as I love my sweets-but it will be discriminate, whereas pre-avian flu crisis I would have been far less choosy).
Fresh duck's blood...ummm, a tasty treat for Halloween trick or treaters, no?
Oct 28th, 2005, 02:59 PM
#34
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Hmm... The most recent data on hand sanitizer is that it's better than nothing but not as good as soap and water. One of the issues about street food is that the people preparing the food have no access to hand washing facilities. "You pays your money and you takes your chances." Lack of good sanitization is the biggest factor in food and water-bourne illnesses.
Think about rural living conditions. People live in close proximity to their livestock. The chances that a farmer's child did NOT have contact with the chicken or the chicken droppings are very small.
Each person has to take a look at the data (about the avian flu or terrorist bombings or whatever) and make choices that they are comfortable with.
Think about rural living conditions. People live in close proximity to their livestock. The chances that a farmer's child did NOT have contact with the chicken or the chicken droppings are very small.
Each person has to take a look at the data (about the avian flu or terrorist bombings or whatever) and make choices that they are comfortable with.
Oct 28th, 2005, 03:09 PM
#35
I'm with you Kathie. I have also heard/read that nothing is better than soap and water. I also read, several years ago, that washing hands with soap and water for 20 seconds will get rid of most germs and have made it a practice to always wash for at least that long, whether at home, work or on vacation. I do carry sanatizer when traveling however in case washing facilities are unavailable while out and about.
Oct 28th, 2005, 03:42 PM
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I'm so agreeable today, I agree with Kathie & with Spygirl....Kathie, sometimes soap & water is not available so I always use hand sanitizer and carry it with me everywhere. Isn't this what our mum's alwayd told us. Wash your hands! I've read in Oz that even doctors & nurses forget to wash their hands and infection is spread this way! I'm not eating chicken while we are away. Partner says he won't either but I do not believe him.
Oct 28th, 2005, 04:16 PM
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"Hearing" that soap and water is best, is a meaningless statement. If you have hot water, and can rinse and soap for 20 sec. at a minimum-then you're getting the germs off. Anything less than that, in this combination-DOESN'T WORK. And most places have water to wash your hands in, but not HOT water-which is key for the germs-so you obviate any benefits that you might otherwise get if there's no hot water.
Washing in this fashion is not really practical, and in most instances, will not do the job because people don't take that long to wash their hands thoroughly. Hand sanitizer, on the other hand, will kill germs with alcohol. And it is alcohol that is always used as a scrub in hospitals, and before giving a shot.
The difference here should be obvious. Hand sanitizer is clearly better, and I've not seen ONE study that would negate that, including my own empirical evidence, where I have ALWAYS washed my hands, and still get at least one cold, versus this past year, where I have had none.
Washing in this fashion is not really practical, and in most instances, will not do the job because people don't take that long to wash their hands thoroughly. Hand sanitizer, on the other hand, will kill germs with alcohol. And it is alcohol that is always used as a scrub in hospitals, and before giving a shot.
The difference here should be obvious. Hand sanitizer is clearly better, and I've not seen ONE study that would negate that, including my own empirical evidence, where I have ALWAYS washed my hands, and still get at least one cold, versus this past year, where I have had none.
