wills

I am with rkkwan on this one. Have you ever had theatre tickets and been not able to go and then complained that the theatre wouldn't honor them later? Do you routinely expect people to feed you for free when you're out on a public bus or train? Do you deliberately buy a 36 inch tv and then get irate when it is indeed 36 inches and not a 54 inch? Do you expect wine and mixed drinks to be free when you are at a restaurant simply because you're there? These are a few of the things that boggle the mind! You buy a seat for an event-a flight. You are paying to hurtle through space at 500 miles per hour on a certain date and only that date. No where else do people expect so much that they do not pay for. Airlines used to do all kinds of things, then Southwest made the rules. People get angry because now everyone has to follow them. Next time you get mad about what isn't there anymore, call Southwest and say "hey thanks!"

doc_

FF miles are fine, you just NEED to be flexible. I have cashed in $2500 worth of tickets this month alone. I may not have got the exact times I wanted, but close enough.

nibblette

I agree with rkkwan's comments, esp about the FF tickets. I have been fortunate enough to build enough miles to actually use (over $2000 savings!)But they are freebies - totally at the discretion of the airlines. I have to fit into THEIR rules and schedules. How? Be flexible and plan very far in advance. And always remember they are bonuses, not entitlements.

Boxerlover

I agree with soccr and mamamia on this one.

And in my opinion, some of you are sounding obnoxious and elitist. I've been travelling for so many years - I'm on a plane all the time. And I rarely see customer service so inadequate as at the airport or while in the air. It's all about the bottom line with airlines. And while I rarely bother to complain, I can't believe that you all would actually defend this system - and say that because it's been like this for so long, we should accept it and not ever expect anything better.

And for the record, in the last 5 years, I've never been able to use FF miles. They make it nearly impossible. And the only reason why this is particularly annoying is because the airlines offered these programs in the first place; incentive to continue using that airline. So you pay the interest rates, you put everything on the card (paying it off at the end of the month, ofcourse) - and in the end, there are no rewards. That's what pisses people off. It just reminds them of yet another scam.

rkkwan

How are we elitists? From what I'm reading, most of the people who've responded to this thread, myself included, fly discount coach. Also, I don't see any of us being obnoxious here. [Well, maybe except me in my original post - but it was meant to be provocative. I deliberately chose that tone.]

Anyways, you seem very unhappy with the FF programs. That's exactly my point. Don't bother with them. Don't bother signing up - that will save you lots of brain cells. Or if you do, donate all of them to charities.

<b>By the way</b>, almost all airlines have some kind of double-mile awards that have lots of availability. If you fly business class internationally, they are good deals even at that rate. 200K miles to Europe, 240K miles to Asia. Excellent deal when a business-class ticket to those destinations often cost $4,000+.

Cassandra

You are elitists because you have clearly reached premier-enough status not to get into some of the troubles that confront more infrequent travelers do -- and you get treated better, which is part of why you went for premier status. And there is also an essential &quot;elitism&quot; in telling people who have to watch every penny to buy really expensive tickets or shut up if they don't like how they're treated. &quot;They don't have bread? let them eat cake -- they don't have flexibility in affordable coach or they don't get treated well? let them buy expensive tickets or be quiet.&quot;

HKP

What she said.

AAFrequentFlyer

<b>Cassandra</b>,

If it wasn't for the high fare paying customer, the ones that have to watch their pennies to travel, would not be able to fly at all. If all things were equal then the average fare to Europe would be around $2000-$3000 per(the real fare). If you think that the $500 fare makes money for the airline? you are dreaming. At best it covers the cost.

Is that what you want?

rkkwan

Ah... So, I see that some of you aren't happy the airlines have multiple-layer fare structure, and that they treat their best customers differently.

I can see your argument, and we can discuss this forever which is the &quot;right&quot; way for a company to conduct its business. Maybe you are correct that it's more &quot;fair&quot; that instead of having some people paying $1,000 for a coast-to-coast domestic roundtrips with all the perks (chance of upgrade, refundable tickets, bonus frequnet flier points, preferred check-in), and people paying $200 for the same seat with nothing, we should all pay $600 for the same ticket.

That's a fair argument. But ask yourself honestly if you'll be happy then when you need to pay $600?

And BTW, you can indeed do that. While Southwest Airlines do have cheaper fares, their most expensive tickets are only $299 one-way coast-to-coast refundable anytime, no restriction, no nothing. And nobody gets first-class upgrades, nobody has seat assignment. And I don't think they have an &quot;elite&quot; program in their Rapid Rewards program. Also, no bad airline food to complain about. Life is so much easier there.

And I have to say that WN's a better model too. They have been earning money every year, when other airlines have been bleeding millions.

So, here's an additional suggestion for those people who complain - <b>please please please fly Southwest or other low-cost airlines whenever possible,</b> even if their fares may be higher than the discount fares elsewhere. [Meanwhile, the remaining elitists among us can fleece off the &quot;majors&quot; until they all go bankrupt.] And we'll all be happy.

soccr

You two are obnoxious on this point. That whole &quot;if it weren't for us big-bucks people, you wouldn't be able to fly at all&quot; is also obnoxious and not entirely true. If it weren't for the legions of those who fly coach and can never use their FF miles, you wouldn't get your upgrades and fly for nothing in Business or First. I don't disagree that it's a screwed up system, but the subsidy isn't from top down. And where is it written that if you don't pay a premium price, you deserve to be treated badly? Notice too, the discount airlines don't fly out of all airports. And finally, you notice that price wasn't the focal point of a number of these posts -- it was how policy was carried out.

Gardyloo

I think rkkwan's original post was somewhat tongue-in-cheek and has been misinterpreted a little.

Look, everyone wants to be treated as well as possible, even &quot;better than average&quot; on average. I too have noted that some folks b!tch about airline service without mentioning (or realizing) that as a percentage of average disposable income air travel has become way cheaper over the years, and probably would have even if Southwest hadn't come along. If you want to see this phenomenon in its most graphic form, look at the proliferation of budget carriers in Europe.

In those cases, you pay for everything, including the &quot;magazine&quot; in the seatpocket, if you want to take it with you. But people know those are the rules, and that if you want to fly on a legacy carrier in Europe, you'll get free stuff only by paying more for your seat.

In North America it seems people want it both ways - cheapo seats, free stuff <i>and</i> good service.

I myself would gladly cough up the extra $25 or $50 for a (now) $300 flight if I could have a seat that's an inch wider and three inches farther from the seatback in front of me. (Reduce seats by 15% to make &quot;MRTC&quot; and add 15% to the price.) That way, if I have to work on the plane, I can do so, the benefits of which are way greater to me income-wise than the $50 extra I'd spend on the seat.

Others may disagree; for them that $50 is a day's car rental on vacation or cab fare to their hotel. And statistically (evidently) the yield-management computers in the airline say it's better to capture that market share than it is to cater to my need to work on the plane. It mystifies me, frankly, but who can argue with the statisticians? :-?

I have faith in the free market system on this one. Somebody is going to have the corporate cojones to put out a product that caters to pax that are willing to pay a few percent more (not 1000% more for the front cabin) for a comfortable seat and decent service (including pillows) and when the market shifts to them you will see all the others moving toward the light. My betting on who will be the first to do so in squarely on Southwest. Build the routes and loyalty, let the legacies self-destruct trying to make themselves over into LCCs, let the Euros break the bank on cruiseliners that can land at a dozen airports total, eat their lunch on short- and mid-haul workers' expresses with legroom and in-flight internet and decent coffee. Worth $50 to you?

AAFrequentFlyer

&lt;&gt;soccr,

I never said that one group supports the other. It doesn't. What I said is that if everybody was paying the same fare for the same exact service the $500 fares to Europe would be history. If that's what you want then I can't argue with you. The question is this. Do you really want that?

BTW, I'm NOT a high fare paying flyer. I'm just like the rest of the crowd here, always looking for bargains, but the difference is that I fly a great deal of miles a year and the airline wants to thank me for the busiess. Isn't that a normal business practice?

droolpatrol

Gardyloo, you said you &quot;have faith in the free market system on this one&quot;. Oh, if only the airlines had the liberty of the free market system for labor when they do their hiring. But instead their hands are tied by
wages held artificially high by labor unions that seem to have much more power than they should. Imagine if there was a true free market for airlines to hire their employees, the airlines might actually be able to afford to give that great service at low prices.

Gardyloo

You probably ought to check facts some - union wages are becoming less an issue in the light of bankruptcy-threatened renegotiations, givebacks, etc. More crucial nowadays is fuel price hedging and fleet rationalization. Oh, and those pricey pillows people keep sneezing into.

Clifton

Don't the majority of elite status flyers and routine business flyers achieve that perk through actual business travel? Businesses that sell to others.

The cost of those flights isn't recouped through the cost of products and services to people like myself, I wouldn't think. Otherwise I wouldn't feel all that appreciative of getting to share that flight after all - as I'd already being paying for my ticket and theirs.

rkkwan

I think we're finally getting to the main argument <b>against</b> me. I am not an economist or a business person, but I do think I have a fairly good understanding of how the economy works.

- Business people paying full-fares are subsidizing the casual flyers who pay discount fares.
- The fares are paid by the company.
- That cost is passed onto all customers of theirs. [Or as reduced profits, or increased losses.]
- Since business travel occurs at many many companies that all of us are customers in a way - for example, Microsoft, GE, ExxonMobil, etc - that cost eventually is passed onto all of us.
- Therefore, if you don't buy discount ticket and fly, you're subsidizing those who do. In other words, those of us who fly discount fares (including myself, AAFF, and others) are actually leeches of the world economy and should be condemned.
- Or you can say that this kind of fare structure is inherently unfair, and is unhealthy to civilization.

So, there you go. I'm arguing against myself now.

clevelandbrown

The idea that tourist class somehow bears the bulk of the cost of operating a plane is an oft-repeated delusion.

First, I believe all US airlines now have discontinued the practice of giving first class seats for miles on domestic flights. To get a first class seat, you have to pay, with cash, or a combination of cash and miles.

Lets take a look at some actual figures. I went to Continental.com and asked for prices on a flight from Newark to Paris in mid april of this year. Heavily restricted economy tickets were offered at $496; the unrestricted front cabin fare was $9090. A typical plane is the 777-200, which has 48 front cabin seats and 235 economy seats. If all seats were sold at the prices given, they would take in $116,000 from tourist class, and $436,000 from those in front seats.

I appreciate that some of the front cabin seats are sold for less, or even given to employees, but there are also discounted seats and deadheaders in tourist class, so the effects should not have that great an impact on the disparity in results.

I don't expect champaign at beer prices, and I know there is a higher ratio of FAs to passengers in the front cabin, but despite the less than ideal working conditions in tourist class, I have never felt poorly treated. I get the same treatment as anyone at the gate and the ticketing line (We are elites, but we got the same treatment before being exalted). I get what I paid for, and I get where we're going almost as quickly, and as I pass through the front cabin on exiting the plane, I look around and feel sort of glad I didn't have to share a cabin with those pigs who made such a mess.

AAFrequentFlyer

I think you meant <b>international</b> not domestic, and I believe you are talking about <b>upgrades for miles</b>, not award tickets which are available for miles only without co-payments.

clevelandbrown

AAFrequentflyer, you are, of course, correct, and I thank you for reining in my rant.

Flyboy

Not to beat a dead horse, but it's far more complicated than the coach cabin seats selling for $XXX and the front cabin selling for $X,XXX. I'm taking a flight to Paris later in the month. While there are essentially only two classes of seats, there are three fare classes up front and nine in coach. The point is that the 235 coach seats in the example cited will absolutely NOT sell at anything resembling the same price to each other and neither will the seats in the front cabin. The general thought that business travelers pay a larger share of the costs is true, but some of those people are in expensive coach seats. I flew to London last week for $358 rountrip. To get the same tickets a week and a half before the flight was several times more.