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Please, people. Only buy full-fare refundable tickets!

Please, people. Only buy full-fare refundable tickets!

Old Feb 4th, 2005, 01:15 PM
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Please, people. Only buy full-fare refundable tickets!

So, in the last 2-3 days alone, I've read multiple threads on this board and on flyertalk.com about how the airlines are screwing them. Not getting her sister to Okinawa on a reward ticket, not rescheduling him because he punched in the wrong date and not realizing it, not giving her and her husband refunds because of a medical issue, etc...

I have a very strong suggestion for all those people. Buy a full-fare refundable ticket. Don't tell me how expensive they are... Plenty of you keep saying how bad the airlines' services are comparing to years ago. Well, if you adjust for inflation, your full-fare Y ticket probably is still cheaper than it was 20+ years ago. So, pay up and stop complaining. Many airlines will even give you complimentary first-class upgrades, or at least put you in front of the upgrade list.

Also, please do not care about FF miles and FF awards. Since you can't claim them anyways (as many of you believe), why even bother? FF awards didn't exist 25 years ago, and you weren't complaining, were you?

Anyways, with more of you guys paying full-fare Y tickets, the airlines may be able to earn some money and improve service for all of us. I will be forever grateful.

So, let me beg all of you. Next time you fly, buy a full-fare refundable ticket. You'll be happier, I'll be happier, and the airline will be happier. Isn't that a "win-win-win" situation?

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Old Feb 4th, 2005, 01:27 PM
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While I might not be running off to buy fully refundable tickets, I have to agree with you regarding the prices of airline tickets today, versus 20 or 30 years ago. I still have my first every airline ticket in it's original AA boarding pass jacket... ok, so I'm a pack rat.

In the 60s, I paid r/t JFK/SFO/JFK $314. Since then I have made this same trip so many times I can't count and only once did I pay a tad more - believe it was $325...and yet today one can often get a non-refundable for way less then what I paid so many years ago.

Folks should, either, purchase trip insurance to cover non-refundable whatever, for justifiable reasons, or pay change fees of $50-$100 each.

The airlines are in business to make money, and with many prices as low as they are, it's not surprising what's happening to the industry. I'm with you on this rkkwan.
 
Old Feb 4th, 2005, 02:33 PM
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I would be with you if the ticket prices had any consistency or relationship to the reality of the cost of a trip. As long as the airlines use ploys like discounts for advance-purchase tickets and then -- relatively speaking -- overprice full fare refundable tickets, it would be flat stupid to do that. But you would howl in derision at anyone who paid $500 for something others get at $239. just to ensure refundability. And what other industry gets away with slamming you with such amazing penalty fees?

What you're really saying is people should stop whining if airlines are unpredictable about their policies, have changed how they treat people for the worse, or people have mishaps in their lives.

What many of the people you're so contemptuous of are saying is that they feel abused by the industry. Which they are.
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Old Feb 4th, 2005, 03:55 PM
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I don't feel contemptuous of the industry in the least. As convoluted as the system is, it provides incredible value to people willing to do their homework. There is some risk in non-refundable tickets, but it is well-compensated. I couldn't have seen a third of the places I've visited under the economics that existed years ago.
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Old Feb 4th, 2005, 05:55 PM
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We only travel once or twice a year. So we save in advance to purchase first class tickets if the flight is more than a few hours. The seat is a lot more comfy. Mostly we purchase the "A" fare or the restricted first class fare.

kwan, let me ask you. Are we safe from being bumped with a restricted first class fare? So far for the past several years flying this way has been fine. Do you see any problems we could fall into by purchasing this type fare..such as a bump or anything else?
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Old Feb 4th, 2005, 07:01 PM
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soccr,

if the fares were realistic then this Fodor's forum would probably not exist. The $200 fares should be happy that there are people paying $1000 fares (THE REALISTIC FARES).

I'm with rkkwan on this one. The airlines are willing to fill the empty seats at cost, but they DO put restrictions on these. If you decide to go the cheap route, REALIZE the consequences if something goes wrong and live with it. If you can't, then buy the realistic fare! Simple as that!.

Great post rkkwan!



And this whole idea of "what other industry?"?, well... try to buy a laptop at BestBuy, CircuitCity, etc and return it couple of weeks later. It's possible, AFTER a 15-25% restocking fee. WHY, because people abused the system in the OLD days (guilty as charged). Buy a nice laptop with DVD player, take it on vacation and return it 2 weeks later. The airlines are not exclusive to penalty charges. Other industries adjust accordingly as well. The cheap fares allow many people to see the world, but they do come with rules and regulations. I think it's a fair trade-off for many people.

You, soccr should look at the benefits of the cheap fares, NOT the cost of the expensive fares as they are the REAL ones.
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Old Feb 4th, 2005, 11:22 PM
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Thanks for all the responses. Basically, I'm just a little fed up this week with a whole bunch of people - many of them frequent flyers - whining about how a certain airline mistreated them. THREE cases of trying to attend an important wedding when they don't allow any hiccups in the schedule, and then expect the airline to accomodate them or compensate them with big dollars - while flying the cheapest fare or a FF award ticket!!! Simply amazing.

Anyways, many of those situation may be better taken cared of if they've bought a full-fare ticket to start with. And if one wants a refund, buy a refundable ticket. Simple as that....

Enough whining on my part. Now we can go back to the regularly scheduled program.
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Old Feb 5th, 2005, 04:10 AM
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Isn't it just another example of "you get what you pay for" and those griping are those who want more than what they paid for. I will continue to buy the lowest price ticket I can find, and realize that then I must be the one taking the risk and the fall if I need to change. Over time, it has more than been cost-effective - the money I save has been more than offset by the very few times I need to pay a change fee.
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Old Feb 5th, 2005, 05:09 AM
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I still think that the gambling paradigm shouldn't be the analogy here. And I agree that some of the "whinging" (one of my favorite Britishisms) about special perks goes over the top, although the whole medical/death situation is one in which the industry has become seriously Scroogelike. I'm sure their rationale (aside from their basic economic problems) comes from past abuses, but with documentation?

But the contempt for passengers in general is palpable, and rather than fix the system in general, they don't just nickel-and-dime them -- they $100 and $250 them. AA, you're apparently in no position to shake fingers at people you think abuse the airline system ;-), but do note that the actual price of Dells and other laptops has come down across the industry -- retailing just doesn't have the same structure and challenges that transportation does. But seriously, would you really pay $2000 for a $1000 laptop just to make sure you could return it?

I think both AAFF and rkkwan are tarring with the same brush both abusers of the system and people legitimately disappointed by an airline. It may be partly because you both are in the position of being able to fly often, to many places, and often in premium situations -- which is the position of many by hardly all Fodorites. Indeed, rkkwan even talks about people who are frequent flyers who should somehow know better, as if being a frequent flyer should somehow make you accustomed to mistreatment, bizarre pricing, and punitive policies.

But the fact that there IS a lot of whining AND the industry is in trouble should suggest something more than that passengers are just all spoiled brats.
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Old Feb 5th, 2005, 05:13 AM
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... many but hardly all Fodorites....

And before AAFF corrects my question about buying a laptop to say, "well, what if the laptop actually costs $2500.?" That in itself tells you how messed up the system is.
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Old Feb 5th, 2005, 05:38 AM
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1. I totally agree that airline pricing is often absurd and illogical. But it's also been this way for a long time. There's nothing surprising about that.

2. Yes, a frequent discount fare flyer should know about that, along with the fact that you can't get a refund on a non-refundable ticket, and there are charges for changes. That's exactly my point of the whole thread. If one doesn't care to learn the rules, one can always just buy a full-fare refundable ticket.

3. My family and I have always flown discount fares, and we are grateful for the business (or otherwise) people who pay full fare as well as the bizzare airline pricing structure. But have we been snapped with change fees and penalties? Of course! But those rules and clearly stated, and have you heard me complaining about them? NO! In fact, one time, we couldn't be happier to hand $75 per itinerary to CO to redeposit some Onepass miles in order to issue new BusinessFirst FF awards.

Anyways, maybe that's just my philosophy. When I see something absurd or bizzare - like airline rules and pricing - I like to learn about them and take advantage of the knowledge. But at the same time I know who are paying the bills for the airlines, and that's certainly not me. I realize there are others who just don't care or refuse to learn. There are two ways for them - 1) complain and complain; 2) buy full-fare refundable tickets (and don't play FF games). The purpose of my original post is to tell those people option #2.
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Old Feb 5th, 2005, 05:59 AM
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rkkwan you are RIGHT on. I have paid change fees, and continue to pay them from time to time. Always happy to do so since I normally buy tickets at very low prices. Usually stick with change fee vs non refundable.

Would also like to see an option for all those grumblers: $75. fee for dinner and a few free drinks. Then how many would complain about rubber chicken or having to pay $4. for a beer on a LAX-NYC flight that they paid the whopping fare of $279. return. My guess is that they would NEVER buy the option and hence would not be able to complain on this board.
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Old Feb 5th, 2005, 06:01 AM
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I didn't see a reply to the question posed earlier in the thread:

Author: El_Swainer
Date: 02/04/2005, 09:55 pm

Message: We only travel once or twice a year. So we save in advance to purchase first class tickets if the flight is more than a few hours. The seat is a lot more comfy. Mostly we purchase the "A" fare or the restricted first class fare.

kwan, let me ask you. Are we safe from being bumped with a restricted first class fare? So far for the past several years flying this way has been fine. Do you see any problems we could fall into by purchasing this type fare..such as a bump or anything else?

* * *

Answer: No, there is no particular problem with this. Involuntary bumps happen occasionally, but they're not at all common. A lot of people are tuned in to the bumping game and they are happy to volunteer for compensation. The few times I've seen involuntary bumps come up have almost always involved small capacity planes. If you have advance seat assignments and you check in on time, your chances of getting involuntarily bumped are very, very small.

On many flights, you can check in online 24 hours in advance. It's convenient and it can get you out in front of the herd. Can things still happen? Sure, but it almost certainly wouldn't have anything to do with buying the kind of tickets you describe.


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Old Feb 5th, 2005, 08:28 AM
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rkkwan, if you couldn't be happier to pay a penalty, then go in peace without your money. But that doesn't mean others have to be happy with it, nor does it give you some special status to chastise people who are irked nor to urge them to pay more just so you won't be irked by their criticism of the airlines.
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Old Feb 5th, 2005, 09:05 AM
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Flyboy thankyou for addressing my question. I had been wondering if a restricted first class fare is an inferior product such as a discount coach fare is inferior to full fare coach. My wife and I can save and splurge on a restricted first class fare but we could not afford a full fare first class. Thanks for your input.
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Old Feb 5th, 2005, 10:37 AM
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The airline industry is unique in that the bread and butter customers are the ones that pay the highest prices - business travellers. The low fare game is in place to attract the fringe flyers, namely vacationers who can have other options available.

If I get a call this afternoon to be somewhere tomorrow, then i need to be there. Might be returning in the afternoon and might not know when i'm returning. My employer pays for this kind of service.

When I plan a vacation this summer I have time to plan ahead, have choices of destinations, can change dates to fit a fare sale or i can opt to drive somewhere. The airlines will work to obtain my fare to fill the plane.

I want to have everything go just as planned in both cases, but in the first case it must go as planned. In the latter i would likely have some flexibility.

Yes, i guess its a case of getting what you pay for.
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Old Feb 7th, 2005, 10:13 AM
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<Also, please do not care about FF miles and FF awards. Since you can't claim them anyways....>

I have used FF miles over the last several years to get award tickets worth MANY THOUSANDS of dollars.

FF award travel is clearly a benefit.
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Old Feb 7th, 2005, 10:22 AM
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Dick - My family and I have claimed over 300,000 miles for award travel in 2004, including international trip, business class trips, last-minute trips, etc...

But if you get the tone of my original post you'll see what I'm trying to tell those people who whine about not getting the FF dates.

[I don't want to name names, but it's on this board just within the last week that a fodorite says he/she cannot find a single Florida-Houston award for the whole month of Feb on Continental, or something like that. I logged in to continental.com as a non-elite, and found that at least for about 20 of the 28 days, there were standard 25K awards available for MIA-IAH. And that's for just one airport!]

Anyways, when you quote me, please don't leave out the part that follows directly: "(as many of you believe)". You're misquoting me if you leave that part out! Hahaha...
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Old Feb 7th, 2005, 10:29 AM
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It may be qouting you out of context..but it wasn't misquoting...LOL

As for FF awards, I think in the last several years I have booked award travel that would have cost me over $40,000. if I had to pay.
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Old Feb 7th, 2005, 08:04 PM
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Consider using consolidators and trying to purchase "cheap" tickets on INTERNATIONAL routs...

Just last month I flew Alitalia to Israel, paying $738 RT. I got the ticket from my travel agent who is also an Alitalia consolidator. I checked the same exact flight on line, and the cheapest I got was $1,078. The FULL coach fare for that same exact flight was about $1,600....

See, we the "poor" people, who still NEED to fly overseas to visit an old mother and a sick father in-law --- benefit TREMENDOUSLY from the ability to purchase those "cheap" tickets... Saving HUNDREDS of Dollars.

...While spending tens of thousands on the best college education for our kids.
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