Knee Defender Broken Seats
May 13th, 2004, 10:39 AM
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Knee Defender Broken Seats
If person A installs a set of knee defenders so that person B cannot recline his/her seat, who pays to fix the seat if person B breaks the seat trying to recline?
May 13th, 2004, 02:02 PM
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But, suppose B's attorney pleads "Defensive Reclining" on B's part because "C" (the person seated in front of B), reclined, thus forcing B into "self-defensive recline?"
Anyone who's flown in steerage the last few years knows full well that even though it isn't at this point formally recognized by airlines, "defensive reclining" not only is a remedy for squeezing and knee-knocking, it also is as contagious as chicken pox.
He/she also could have made the point that "A" had recourse even in the event of a "other than defensive -intrusive reclining" by "B" (aka "obnoxious reclining)- by invoking "Defensive Reclining" into the lap of the passenger seated directly behind him, who we'll call "D".
If that were the case, I would think that B would be found blameless because of another factor beyond their control.
That's because, when you really think about it, it's obvious -- Wilbur and Orville Wright are to blame. because they're the ones who set into motion the chain of events that resulted in "A" using a knee defender in the first place.
(As a post script, imagine the possibilities when the Airbus 380 goes into service configured all-economy with seating for 800 people in seats with a pitch of about 6 inches.)
(Time for a drink.)
Anyone who's flown in steerage the last few years knows full well that even though it isn't at this point formally recognized by airlines, "defensive reclining" not only is a remedy for squeezing and knee-knocking, it also is as contagious as chicken pox.
He/she also could have made the point that "A" had recourse even in the event of a "other than defensive -intrusive reclining" by "B" (aka "obnoxious reclining)- by invoking "Defensive Reclining" into the lap of the passenger seated directly behind him, who we'll call "D".
If that were the case, I would think that B would be found blameless because of another factor beyond their control.
That's because, when you really think about it, it's obvious -- Wilbur and Orville Wright are to blame. because they're the ones who set into motion the chain of events that resulted in "A" using a knee defender in the first place.
(As a post script, imagine the possibilities when the Airbus 380 goes into service configured all-economy with seating for 800 people in seats with a pitch of about 6 inches.)
(Time for a drink.)
May 13th, 2004, 09:09 PM
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This may become a moot point.
Most of the major airlines have come out with a "No knee defender" policy based on the justification that anything that interfers with the normal function of the aircraft is a safety hazard.
I imagine that any that haven't yet adopted this stance will sooner than later.
Most of the major airlines have come out with a "No knee defender" policy based on the justification that anything that interfers with the normal function of the aircraft is a safety hazard.
I imagine that any that haven't yet adopted this stance will sooner than later.
May 14th, 2004, 05:48 AM
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Let's put the blame precisely where it belongs: on the airlines for inhuman and inhumane configurations in coach.
But for the record, I think person A is a problem passenger here. The seats are made to recline, and where they go when they recline is a matter of design, not wrong-doing by the person sitting in them.
But for the record, I think person A is a problem passenger here. The seats are made to recline, and where they go when they recline is a matter of design, not wrong-doing by the person sitting in them.
May 14th, 2004, 11:38 AM
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Why is it that everyone complains about airline seats, knows what they are but won't pay to upgrade? If you buy an economy seat, you get an economy seat.
What's the problem? Those knee defenders are the invention of a selfish cheap person. Imagine being the person in front of him!
What's the problem? Those knee defenders are the invention of a selfish cheap person. Imagine being the person in front of him!
May 14th, 2004, 03:41 PM
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Let 'em eat cake if they won't serve bread in coach, eh Wills? People in coach are only there because they're just too cheap to upgrade? And where is it written that just because it's coach, it is okay to put people in pain?
May 15th, 2004, 12:21 PM
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After I wrote this I knew I would get slammed, but here is my answer: were you 6'5 when you bought your ticket? If so then you know what you're getting. American Airlines had that "extra legroom" feature for a time, and they are phasing it out on certain markets. Why? Because the fact remains, people buy airline tickets based on price, not service or quality. Then they get on the plane and complain. Sorry, if it meant that much to them American Airlines would have been the domain of the 6 foot plus. All I know is that I would expect the flight attendant to coldly and firmly demand the removal of such device. No one forces anyone to fly.
May 15th, 2004, 02:26 PM
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Wills, you can't have it both ways.
People actually are indeed forced to fly nowadays if they have to get from most cities to most other cities -- no trains, a few slow buses, cars equally slow. And to a point, I agree with you about people griping excessiving about seats reclining into their laps and no-knee-room. However, I'm actually quite short -- more than a foot shorter than your hypothetical 6'5" person who you assume has the money to upgrade and won't -- which puts me below the statistical average -- and even I'm often pretty cramped. American's no-more-room-in-coach planes make even me wince: legs that take a 30" inseam should CERTAINLY have enough room but I sometimes don't, even if the person in front never reclines. Can't cross my legs, knee caps bump the magazine pocket.
The point is, if people don't have a reasonable alternative to flying, or to flying economy class, they do have a reasonable expectation that the airline will provide them with a seat they can actually sit in without getting a blood clot. You shouldn't have to upgrade to get that. But the knee-defenders are a crappy alternative that just shows the me-first attitude that - in fact - does tend to dominate in business class.
So I don't argue with you about the me-first whiners, but I do argue with you about the options "normal mortals" have or should have.
People actually are indeed forced to fly nowadays if they have to get from most cities to most other cities -- no trains, a few slow buses, cars equally slow. And to a point, I agree with you about people griping excessiving about seats reclining into their laps and no-knee-room. However, I'm actually quite short -- more than a foot shorter than your hypothetical 6'5" person who you assume has the money to upgrade and won't -- which puts me below the statistical average -- and even I'm often pretty cramped. American's no-more-room-in-coach planes make even me wince: legs that take a 30" inseam should CERTAINLY have enough room but I sometimes don't, even if the person in front never reclines. Can't cross my legs, knee caps bump the magazine pocket.
The point is, if people don't have a reasonable alternative to flying, or to flying economy class, they do have a reasonable expectation that the airline will provide them with a seat they can actually sit in without getting a blood clot. You shouldn't have to upgrade to get that. But the knee-defenders are a crappy alternative that just shows the me-first attitude that - in fact - does tend to dominate in business class.
So I don't argue with you about the me-first whiners, but I do argue with you about the options "normal mortals" have or should have.
May 15th, 2004, 06:10 PM
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The idea of upgrading to avoid the close quarters of steerage would make sense only if there were some middle ground, price-wise. You pay some ludicrously low rate for steerage, or you pay something in the five figures for business or first class. There's little in-between. And, there is a market for in-between. You should have seen the run for the ticket counter when it was announced that they had a few seats available for upgrade to business class for $250 more. There's a market for mid-priced tickets with mid-level comfort.
May 16th, 2004, 10:11 AM
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crys,
I will have to disagree with you. What you saw was what I call "the last minute, hell we're on vacation, let's go in style," change of mind. I'm not saying that this applies to everybody, but I'm pretty sure that the same people would not consider paying $500 more for ticket when they were pricing the flight originally, just for few more inches of space. It's the fact of life in the airline industry. There is no in between market or at least not enough that would make the airlines consider doing the economy+ option. UA has it, but it's mostly used as a reward for their elites, and BA has it, but they just offer it on long distance flying. Domestically this would never work. If there was a market, the airlines would have in in place long time ago. Believe me, if they knew that taking 3-4 rows of seats out would guarantee them $500 more per passenger, the seats would have been sold at a garage sale long time ago. Majority of people are willing to take any and all abuze as long as they get from point A to point B on Greyhound type fares.
If you just read the posts here, you will notice that most are about getting the cheapest fare. Some time back, few times I would suggest that sometimes it may pay to spend the extra $, because of special promotions, where you would be upgraded,, get more miles, and most of the times I would be shut down, with replies like this: Hey, it's only a 7 hour flight, if I could do it very cheaply, I don't care if I'm in the cargo hold, or food, who needs airline food?, or etc..., well, you get the point.
The airline business became our main means of long distance transportation, but unfortunately or fortunately (depends how you look at things), most people want and desire and demand Greyhound fares, and only once they are at the airport and they realize that they will e sitting in the steerage for the next 8 hours, they jump at the $250 upgrade when offered, but I could bet the same people would never buy the same ticket if it was $500(R/T) more. We are the Wal-Mart society after all.
I will have to disagree with you. What you saw was what I call "the last minute, hell we're on vacation, let's go in style," change of mind. I'm not saying that this applies to everybody, but I'm pretty sure that the same people would not consider paying $500 more for ticket when they were pricing the flight originally, just for few more inches of space. It's the fact of life in the airline industry. There is no in between market or at least not enough that would make the airlines consider doing the economy+ option. UA has it, but it's mostly used as a reward for their elites, and BA has it, but they just offer it on long distance flying. Domestically this would never work. If there was a market, the airlines would have in in place long time ago. Believe me, if they knew that taking 3-4 rows of seats out would guarantee them $500 more per passenger, the seats would have been sold at a garage sale long time ago. Majority of people are willing to take any and all abuze as long as they get from point A to point B on Greyhound type fares.
If you just read the posts here, you will notice that most are about getting the cheapest fare. Some time back, few times I would suggest that sometimes it may pay to spend the extra $, because of special promotions, where you would be upgraded,, get more miles, and most of the times I would be shut down, with replies like this: Hey, it's only a 7 hour flight, if I could do it very cheaply, I don't care if I'm in the cargo hold, or food, who needs airline food?, or etc..., well, you get the point.
The airline business became our main means of long distance transportation, but unfortunately or fortunately (depends how you look at things), most people want and desire and demand Greyhound fares, and only once they are at the airport and they realize that they will e sitting in the steerage for the next 8 hours, they jump at the $250 upgrade when offered, but I could bet the same people would never buy the same ticket if it was $500(R/T) more. We are the Wal-Mart society after all.
May 16th, 2004, 12:17 PM
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There were attempts to give people more room and charge a premium (but not as much as first class). One was Legend. AA protected its market by putting their own "premium" product to match Legend out of Dallas Love Field. Sure, AA's strategy was mainly to put Legend out of business (and they did), but if there were enough demand for this type of service, Legend could have survived and AA could have continue with that service.
The other is Midwest Express (now Midwest Airlines), which put 2-2 seatings in their DC-9/MD-80, instead of 2-3. Unfortunately, they're backing away from that and is installing standard seats in their "Saver" service.
Anyways, it's not that one doesn't have any choice. You can still fly a lot of AA's flights with MRTC, except on 757 and A300.
However, what the public want is low fare and frequent flights. You wonder why more and more, and longer and longer, flights are being flown in regional jets?
The other is Midwest Express (now Midwest Airlines), which put 2-2 seatings in their DC-9/MD-80, instead of 2-3. Unfortunately, they're backing away from that and is installing standard seats in their "Saver" service.
Anyways, it's not that one doesn't have any choice. You can still fly a lot of AA's flights with MRTC, except on 757 and A300.
However, what the public want is low fare and frequent flights. You wonder why more and more, and longer and longer, flights are being flown in regional jets?
May 16th, 2004, 04:01 PM
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OK, the thread seems to have been hijacked! Now to get back on track...
I found one website where someone claimed he pushed his seat back and caused the tray mechanism to break for the passenger who installed the Knee Defenders. The installer got the bill for the damamges. I also found that AA made a statement in their March 15 American Way inflight magazine that said ""American Airlines does not permit the use of any device that could cause damage to existing equipment, or that may diminish the design, function or capability of any aircraft part or component.""
Just for the record I only recline to the first position if I'm awake. If it's an overnight flight, sorry, but I'm going all the way back or I'll be awake all night. (But everyone seems to be full back on the overnight flights.) Minimum recline during meal service, too. As much as I don't like the person in front of me reclining, I also realize that we're all in steerage and it's cramped. If I could afford First I would go for it. Oh, and for a short flight (under four hours,) I could do the trip standing up.
I would also buy the economy plus seats if they were available. I've looked for them on United and could never get them. On BA they were $500 USD more but they never seem to be available. So for the next trip I'm trying American with the MRTC seats.
I found one website where someone claimed he pushed his seat back and caused the tray mechanism to break for the passenger who installed the Knee Defenders. The installer got the bill for the damamges. I also found that AA made a statement in their March 15 American Way inflight magazine that said ""American Airlines does not permit the use of any device that could cause damage to existing equipment, or that may diminish the design, function or capability of any aircraft part or component.""
Just for the record I only recline to the first position if I'm awake. If it's an overnight flight, sorry, but I'm going all the way back or I'll be awake all night. (But everyone seems to be full back on the overnight flights.) Minimum recline during meal service, too. As much as I don't like the person in front of me reclining, I also realize that we're all in steerage and it's cramped. If I could afford First I would go for it. Oh, and for a short flight (under four hours,) I could do the trip standing up.
I would also buy the economy plus seats if they were available. I've looked for them on United and could never get them. On BA they were $500 USD more but they never seem to be available. So for the next trip I'm trying American with the MRTC seats.
May 31st, 2004, 05:48 AM
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Person B would probably be responsible. You should never force anythhing. Have the flight attendant come over and fix the problem, which fix included removing foreign objects that interfere with the seat mechanism.
>>> I would gladly pay 15-20% more for 15-20% more room...
You could probably pay a couple of people $50 each to swap seats in such a combination leaving you with a seat where the person in front is not reclining.
Many times, sitting your fanny all the way back will allow your knees to clear the seat in front.
Travel tips:
http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/travel.htm
Note that the Knee Defender (tm) defends knees only, not laptops or drinks.
>>> I would gladly pay 15-20% more for 15-20% more room...
You could probably pay a couple of people $50 each to swap seats in such a combination leaving you with a seat where the person in front is not reclining.
Many times, sitting your fanny all the way back will allow your knees to clear the seat in front.
Travel tips:
http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/travel.htm
Note that the Knee Defender (tm) defends knees only, not laptops or drinks.
