We are looking at upgrading to business class next Sept. on our trip to Italy and see that using our Delta miles we could fly direct from SFO to AMS on KLM and then a short hop to MXP. We have not flown on KLM for years, and don't know what it's like. I see that they charge extra to get seats on the side, where there are only 2 seats instead of 3.

What do you have to say about KLM these days? It sounds attractive to avoid JFK, CDG or ATL (Atlanta?).

I just read some pretty good comments on Slow Travel, but a couple of people referred to not getting the seats they had pre-assigned when they booked. And one couple who got booted from bus. class because KLM had assiugned all the seats to others even though the couple had pre-booked. What's this about?

I have artificial knees and can't sit for long periods in coach, so I don't want to be in danger of losing my bus. class seat! We would be flying in from FCO to AMS to catch the flight back to SFO.

KLM business class is okay, but nothing special. Service is usually efficient and solid, but not overly impressive. Food is usually just ok, but the wines often show some thought. Booze is middling.

Now... the seats. They are probably a bit below average. They are the lie-flat at an angle type, but the angle just seems too steep to me. They are okay enough for lounging, though. Then again, the old DL seats (the flat beds are quite nice) are nothing special either.

All in all, for this routing, I would think they are a decent choice.

I really enjoyed KLM business class, but ours was on 747 from LAX to AMS, where we were on the second level. Very comfy, big seats, good freebies, and good food. Prefer Air France biz class from LAX to CDG by a hair, but both are substantially preferable to econ.

The angle on KL lie flats is steeper than AF. For comfort factor, I prefer AF (if you have the option). However service is generally more attentive than AF. For your intra-Europe connection KL has 3-3 seating in business just like coach. There's no blocking of the middle seat. AF still blocks the middle seat with slightly wider window and aisle seats on intra-Europe business. I've not had seat assignment issues on either. While AMS is a very easy airport to transit, CDG has made substantial improvements in recent years and I wouldn't necessarily avoid it (it's still no AMS though). I wouldn't rule out JFK/ATL either especially if you can get a Business Elite equipped aircraft for the domestic segment from SFO.

Thanks, all. Can you tell me about the angle on lie-flat seats? Does that mean you feel like you are sliding off the seat or something? Or is it that the seat is not really completely 180 degrees flat?

If the angle is steep (KL, NW), you do feel like you're sliding down. Sometimes I find that not putting these seats into the full sleep position actually makes it a little easier to sleep. AF seats are something like 5 degrees (angle relative to the floor) so I can generally sleep comfortably in the full sleep position. Of course, it still doesn't compare to a flatbed (where the bed is horizontal to the floor) at least to me. DL seats (the ones that aren't flatbeds) are cradle style seats which I find OK but again not great for sleeping.

I prefer AF too. I actually think that AF might have the most comfortable angled lie-flats out there.

But......... I believe that you can only upgrade using DL miles on the highest AF economy fares. On KLM, you can upgrade on Y, X, S, B, and M fares. The M fares, in particular, are a SIGNIFICANT discount from the Y fares. The M fares still aren't cheap, but the Y fares are so expensive that you would probably just be better off buying a business class ticket in the first place.

travelgourmet,
I believe you're right about AF. I wasn't quite sure if the OP meant upgrading from a paid coach ticket.

We waited too long;upgrades were not available-we had to bite the bullet and pay for bus.class. OUCH!!

At least you're not flying biz class from Australia, now thats super ouch!!! I'm looking at this post as the cheapest business class fair from Sydney to Cairo is $5500 and that's with KLM... hence me here. Other airlines are an average of 8 to 9000!