I'm trying to keep an open mind, but it's becoming difficult:

http://www.safaribwana.com/COUNTRIES...as.htm#LUANGWA

The map on this page is revealing, and the home page is fascinating. Some of you are probably aware of this and similar sites, but as hunting holds no interest for me, I'd never googled for it...until reading the Judith Lorraine trip report on South Luangwa this past May.

I'm not going to jump to any conclusions based on my reading of these two sources in the past few days, because SL as a beautiful destination attracts me. But I've always chosen my safari destinations carefully, and will continue to do so.

John

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. If you mean that Zambia is off your list because they have hunting near their parks, are you in for a surprise. Just where did you plan on going instead then?

Happy hunting.

Without hunting, the areas surrounding the parks would turn into farmland or villages. Don't be naive -- hunting preserves land and animals. I have no interest in hunting, and I personally believe that certain animals (lion, leopard, rhino) should be off-limits, I have no issues with those who want to hunt buffalo or common antelope.

Luangwablondes: Do you have a reading comprehension problem? I thought I said quite clearly that I'm not jumping to conclusions, but that I will choose carefully.

I might point out that I had Zambia in my sights way back in 1998 but it was beyond my budget at the time so I chose a cheaper walking safari in Zimbabwe (and excellent it was, too). Then Zambia slipped off the radar for no other reason than that Selinda came my way via a friend's first-hand experience. Zambia, specifically SL, came back on the screen this year and attracts me greatly, to some extent because of what rocco has had to say about it. But I would be a fool if I ignored the information I referred to previously. I will carefully consider all intelligent, reasoned argument.

thit_cho: If you had read and understood a previous post of mine, you would have seen that I gave a similar argument about the benefits of hunting. It is or can be what I regard as a necessary evil. The issue is its proximity to areas where animals are supposed to be safe. And-- somebody will correct me if I'm wrong-- according to the hunting site, lion and leopards are not off-limits in Zambia and they are expecting fully-maned lions to be in short supply. That information seems to be reflected in the trip report I referred to previously.

John

We are not mind readers here. Say what you mean. No need to get nasty about it, when I clearly said you were not clear in what you said.

I'm sorry, but I haven't been studying your posts, only reacting to this one.

The biggest joke national park in Africa, though, is in Tanzania, not Zambia. The Selous touts itself as Africa's largest national park, but very little (10% or so, I think) is open to photographic safaris, with the balance (or most of the park) open to hunters.

thit_cho

You would think the hunting concessions the size of the Selous would be enough. In 2000, I came across a crew building a temporary hunting camp in the photographic concession. You wouldn't have believed what it entailed unless you saw it for yourself.

Forgot to mention one small detail. It was for the ex-president of Tanz and his guests from India. Airconditioning for the several raised sleeping quarters, a truck load of bottle water, live chickens(this in a game park) and the list goes on.

John,

I fully concur with your statement, that the hunting concessions are too close to the main game drive zones....the guides spend their entire time habituating the animals to vehicles and then they just step out to the hunting areas and get shot by these "Trophy gatherers". However, i do plan to visit SL sometime, to experience whatever it has to offer. But, the Judith Lorraine report is truly an eye-opener. Also, really revealing about the operations of RPS. In RPS's "IT's Monday" newsletter...they had it written by someone who had no clue about Africa. It wasn't even well written. But, that's RPS. I know, i would try some of the owner-run camps in the SL.

Luangwablondes,

Indian guests of the ex-president of Tanzania? You sure???

Don't get me wrong, i'm not offended at all..... it's possible.

But, during the days of the British rule they trophy hunted our tigers and leopards all over the place and complete devastation in it's path.......this attitude from the colonialists passed onto the maharajas and other "aristrocrats" back in the day....it was considered "sport" for the rich.

Hari

Hari

The construction manager gave me a little tour of his project, showing me the building supplies, food stores, ect. and explaining what was going on and who it was for. Should have taken a few pics if I'd have known it was to be so interesting to a lot of people. I was under the impression the main guest was some sort of important religious figure of sorts.

In the Southern hunting concessions on the way to Liwale, the hunting camps I saw were mostly primitive. Kind of surprised me because of the big bucks the clients spend.

In the hunting concessions outside of South Luangwa, one thing I noticed at 4:30AM to about 7:30 was a lot of game on their way back to the park after grazing in the GMAs all night. Imput from the locals-Seems they are pretty clever when it comes to the hunters. The hunters active during the day and the prey at night. I think I have mentioned this one particular area(GMA) is my favorite place for game drives outside of a park.

Lunagwa Blondes,

Pardon my curiosity. Thanks for the info. Probably, not a religious figure. Religious figures here are 100% vegetarian and dont even eat eggs. Doubt they'd go out on an expensive hunting safari. Probably some eccentric person, wanting to experience living in past: hunting for sport etc etc.,

Very interesting behaviour of the animals though. These GMA's......people only hunt in the day time? Is that the rule or these ppl just lazy?

Hari

luangwablondes: Thanks for the insight into animal behaviour between the GMAs and the park in the daytime (and the other info about Selous, both you and thit_cho). It's to be expected of course, as animals soon learn when, where and what is not safe. Not that that helps all of them (why do I keep thinking of the far-ranging male lions?), otherwise hunting would soon fall by the wayside. Your later posts are the sort of serious information I was hoping for; instead, first reaction was kneejerk defensive stuff...no use to me or anybody else who skims this forum looking for information about issues which they may care about.

Hari, thanks for your input too. I'm hoping for a fair bit more, as I don't intend to make a final decision until late this year, after an agent I know returns from SL. He's in Botswana at present (some people are so, so lucky) and when he touches home base before returning to Africa, I'll be asking him to check out the issues in this thread and the Lorraine report.

John

Hari

He's a Christian. And thats the end of this part of the topic.

As far as hunting at night, I certainly don't want to be anywhere near where any bozo is hunting at night. They're dangerous enough during the day with a gun. As game hunting is not my forte, what I understand is the game they shoot, must be brought down quickly. Wounding an animal is not good practice- 5% of the time (BM)-and they must be tracked and put out of their misery. Also that animal is charged against the permit they purchased anyway technically. If its wounded you don't want a pissed off lion, leopard, buffalo or ellie looking for trouble in your vicinity or a village.

Luangwablondes,

Thanks for your info. Yes, i definitely dont want a "pissed off" lion, leop, ele or buffalo.....especially, since there are walking trails not too far........

Hari

John: thanks for posting this, I have had similar thoughts recently and a trip to S.L. has moved from near the top of my safari wish list to near the bottom. This portion of the article is the key reason for me:

"Lion and leopard hunting has been varied with the better concessions yielding decent, full maned bush lion and larger male leopard. However, it is thought that the quality is on the decline due to hunting pressure and one needs a good deal of time to be sure of a good trophy. There are many lion and leopard throughout the valley and baits are regularly "hit"."

I was a little taken back when Lorraine reported the lack of mature male lions. I have since looked at other S.L. reports and traveler pictures and noticed they are lacking compared to Fodorite experiences in other areas. I even read comments from Rocco about how great it was in Tanz. to see full maned lions because it was uncommon on his Zambia trips. When the hunters know the 'stock' is declining due to over hunting there is clearly a problem.

I am aware there are hunting areas in all the countries but here there is a visible effect on one of the animals I enjoy seeing the most, and I believe over hunting the male lions causes big problems with lion social structure. Once you get problems with the Apex predator in the system lots of things start getting out of whack. To me one of the most amazing things about safaris is there are ample places where entire systems are relatively in-tact and I prefer to spend my time in those areas.

luangwablondes observation of the game moving back in to the park after grazing all night is very interesting and it happens commonly with herbivores in the U.S. too. They seem to know where the hunting pressure stops and they move to the secure area within National Parks, etc. But its different with predators. Herbivores are evolved to move away from danger/hunting pressure. They are constantly trying to figure out where is a predator and how to remove themselves from that danger.

Conversely, predators are focused on finding a meal. When they smell the bait they know a meal is waiting outside of the park -- sure they could pursue all the live prey and have a 30% chance of making a kill and risk injury or they can go to the plate that is all set out and waiting for them to eat. I really don't understand what kind of a trophy that makes when you hide and shoot a stationary target that is eating a meal -- shooting a bullseye on a paper target is really the same shot but I guess it doesn't look as good in a den.

Like John I have not written off a trip to the Valley but until I see results that male lions are coming back it has probably slipped to about #10 on my Africa dream destination list.

I really know very little to nothing about this so I should bite my tongue.

But I hardly think abandoning Zambia will do anything to improve the odds for its wildlife. Just my uneducated 2 shillings.

Cheers~
Sharon

There is always North Luangwa(in the valley) that has loads of lions. A reflection of the great job antipoaching has done and probably that the Mwaleshi River Safari area is not subject to the same hunting issues.

One observation. It seems most of the forum is staying at the same lodges and camps. It has been my experience that in the places I haunt in South Luangwa NP , mature male lions in prides are generally well maned.Even some of the solitary males I have come across. So its possible the people reporting back are coming back from areas suffering hunting pressures outside the park.

And, Robbie, the places you haunt would be????

luangwablondes: you make a great point that most of the people on this board are staying in the same general areas and unfortunately those are the ones under heavy pressure from hunting -- reported a few times that you can actually hear the gun shots. North Luangwa would perhaps interest me more at this time. I would really like to go to Kafue and combining N. Luangwa would perhaps be better for my desires.

Sharon: I am not suggesting that anyone should abandon Zambia (Kafue is near the top of my list) or S.L. specifically and certainly that would not likely result in helping the wildlife. I know S.L. is an amazing place and I would love to visit there but I am turned off by reports of hearing gunshots, declining male lions due to baiting them out of the park, coupled with the fact that cheetah and wild dog are very hard to see there it just doesn't rate at the top of my choices which tend to be very predator oriented. Keep in mind there is no such thing as bad pizza and different toppings appeal more to different people. Fact is there are many magnificent places and due to the aforementioned factors I would prefer to order someting different at this time but I'd be more than happy to be a consumer of S.L. too. I do hope they deal with the apparent overhunting issue. I don't like hunting of predators ever but if hunting is going to occur it is important to manage it properly.

PredatorBiologist

The problem you are going to come across if going to NLNP is that the majority of the scheduled flights seem to pass through Mfuwe. Then it would not make sense to bypass SLNP. Oh sure you can do that, but those flights would be expensive charters or itineraries mostly. You got to ask yourself, is there a $$ figure on principle.

Sharon- not ignoring your question, but I always seem to find lion in SLNP wherever I look. The best areas traditionally for me when no one is locating any in the Mfuwe are around Kakuli and the track that Nsolo is off of,if I don't want to drive to far. But then I have abnormal luck in spotting lions.

Several years ago, I was at Flatdogs and there was a girl who had been in Africa for something like a month, made all the effort to go out wherever on safari and no lion. And she was leaving in 2 days. Lion in Mfuwe had not been spotted for nearly 2 weeks in the Mfuwe area by anyone. So, I offered to take her out if she didn't see lion on the AM drive. This on a Friday nite in the bar at Flatdogs. Not smart. Sure enough, nothing from any of the game drives that AM. So after lunch in the heat of the day went into the park, headed North towards Kakuli. To make a long story short, found lion aways off the track after a short time and she had exclusive time and positioning to look/photograph the pride. Back to Flatdogs for a well deserved beer and some teed off looks from several guides. Needless to say, some of the guides were taking their clients to that location.

Look for buffalo, and you will find lion.