Thompson Safaris following the Lead of WS
May 7th, 2008, 05:59 AM
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May 7th, 2008, 07:23 AM
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perhaps not all details are clear, but here's my take on it:
1) farm is owned by private owner - SA Breweries
2) the owner sells it to another owner
what is the problem? just because property laws were not enforced in the past and trespassers were not persecuted, why is it not ok to begin enforcing the property laws now? i don't see what the problem is, if the facts as they are stated in the article.
the larger issue of locals not having enough land to graze their animals is for the government to deal with - they either should be give land of their own or government should never have sold that land into private ownership (and benefitted from the money received).
1) farm is owned by private owner - SA Breweries
2) the owner sells it to another owner
what is the problem? just because property laws were not enforced in the past and trespassers were not persecuted, why is it not ok to begin enforcing the property laws now? i don't see what the problem is, if the facts as they are stated in the article.
the larger issue of locals not having enough land to graze their animals is for the government to deal with - they either should be give land of their own or government should never have sold that land into private ownership (and benefitted from the money received).
May 7th, 2008, 08:06 AM
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I think a visit to Thompson Safaris website wherein they talk of the culural diversity of Tanzania would be in order!
It seems that Tanzania is being sold off to the highest bidder and the needs of the people are as always ignored!
That seems perfectly fair to me I do not know why I even brought it up.
It seems that Tanzania is being sold off to the highest bidder and the needs of the people are as always ignored!
That seems perfectly fair to me I do not know why I even brought it up.
May 7th, 2008, 08:21 AM
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but the responsibility lies with the government! if it's an important part of the country, the government should hold the land, make it a national park, etc as is done with Serengeti, Tarangire, etc. This area was decided by Tanzanian people who elected the government that it didn't need such protection. thus, private ownership is allowed. the idea of private property is that the owner is free to choose how to use it.
if that's against the beliefs of the people, they are free to elect a government who will support their views and protect other areas (or nationalize current areas under private ownership). but it's not the fault of the owners who bought the land honestly to not use it how they see fit.
by that logic, i should give up my house to the homeless because they are also deserving of a place to live.
if that's against the beliefs of the people, they are free to elect a government who will support their views and protect other areas (or nationalize current areas under private ownership). but it's not the fault of the owners who bought the land honestly to not use it how they see fit.
by that logic, i should give up my house to the homeless because they are also deserving of a place to live.
May 7th, 2008, 08:38 AM
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Trust me that there is more to this story, and the story is completely one-sided. Thomson Safaris puchased the land in a completely legal and process-driven way. There is a Maasai woman in Kenya that is encouraging the local villagers to squat on the land, and she is inciting people to act in this way. Thomson has offered to build water catchment areas to allow for the locals to have water, so they won't need to graze in the center of the property. The goal is to return the land to its natural state, and by grazing this prevents the wildlife from returning.
There is more to this story. It is amazing how an article can be so one-sided.
There is more to this story. It is amazing how an article can be so one-sided.
May 7th, 2008, 09:25 AM
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Just goes to show you may not be able to read everything you read in the press. Where is grazing to take place if every bit of land becomes a wildlife reserve?
Since when has any government African or otherwise supported the needs of its people?
The following is a cut and paste from the following link
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:g...=clnk&cd=4
"The Sukenya farm (now owned by TBL) has become a further complicating factor in natural resource
management in Loliondo. The farm occupies an estimated 12,600 acres of land. This farm has recently
become a renewed source of conflict with villagers. It was reported that 10,000 acres of land was
arbitrarily but lawfully given to TBL by village and ward leaders without villagers’ participation in
1983. TBL then farmed some of the land for a year and has reportedly since not farmed the land. In
2001 the farm was resurveyed and a land lease awarded by the Commissioner for Lands for 12,600
acres in 2003. In February 2006, TBL advertised Sukenya farm for sale by tender. The village has
placed a caveat on the lease and village members will, after following due procedure as required by
the law, lodge a case in the High Court (Lands Division) in Dar es Salaam to contest their right to the
land, given that it has lain unused by TBL for over 12 consecutive years. The loss of this land is viewed
by village members as symbolic and similar to an extension of the Ngorongoro Conservation Area.
The use of the media campaigns has been important in an attempt to revoke the sale. PINGOs Forum,
CRT and Sand County Foundation were instrumental in facilitating this process.
In conclusion the paper calls for intervention from all quarters including Government Authorities, Human
Rights activists as well as technical and financial assistance from advocacy organizations."
No wonder the land was sold!
Since when has any government African or otherwise supported the needs of its people?
The following is a cut and paste from the following link
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:g...=clnk&cd=4
"The Sukenya farm (now owned by TBL) has become a further complicating factor in natural resource
management in Loliondo. The farm occupies an estimated 12,600 acres of land. This farm has recently
become a renewed source of conflict with villagers. It was reported that 10,000 acres of land was
arbitrarily but lawfully given to TBL by village and ward leaders without villagers’ participation in
1983. TBL then farmed some of the land for a year and has reportedly since not farmed the land. In
2001 the farm was resurveyed and a land lease awarded by the Commissioner for Lands for 12,600
acres in 2003. In February 2006, TBL advertised Sukenya farm for sale by tender. The village has
placed a caveat on the lease and village members will, after following due procedure as required by
the law, lodge a case in the High Court (Lands Division) in Dar es Salaam to contest their right to the
land, given that it has lain unused by TBL for over 12 consecutive years. The loss of this land is viewed
by village members as symbolic and similar to an extension of the Ngorongoro Conservation Area.
The use of the media campaigns has been important in an attempt to revoke the sale. PINGOs Forum,
CRT and Sand County Foundation were instrumental in facilitating this process.
In conclusion the paper calls for intervention from all quarters including Government Authorities, Human
Rights activists as well as technical and financial assistance from advocacy organizations."
No wonder the land was sold!
May 7th, 2008, 01:25 PM
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if the latest post that quotes from the proceedings is accurate, it is an even more interesting situation. So, village elders themselves (not the big bad central government) sold the land and now they want to cancel the sale. will they give the money back with interest? it is actions like these that prevent other businesses and international organizations dealing with african representatives seriously. it further sets the stereotype that africans don't respect contracts and can't be trusted in a business deal. that's very unfortunate as it hurts those who are willing to deal in good faith and prevents further development of the country.
May 7th, 2008, 11:29 PM
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"if the latest post that quotes from the proceedings is accurate, it is an even more interesting situation. So, village elders themselves (not the big bad central government) sold the land and now they want to cancel the sale. will they give the money back with interest?" -lerasp
Are we reading from different quotes? I could have sworn it says village and ward leaders gave the land to TBL. And, reading between the lines, the gift was misused. I'm not surprised, in view of subsequent events, that the local people are upset. I'm with you, sniktawk.
Are we reading from different quotes? I could have sworn it says village and ward leaders gave the land to TBL. And, reading between the lines, the gift was misused. I'm not surprised, in view of subsequent events, that the local people are upset. I'm with you, sniktawk.
May 8th, 2008, 08:20 AM
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I’ll copy what I just wrote on Safaritalk where this is being discussed as well:
Even if Thompson Safaris have got the ownership of this land in a legally correct manner, which I doubt – some village leaders gave the land to TBL without villagers’ participation, but it didn’t cause too many problems as TBL just farmed a little bit for a year and then didn’t do anything for 12 years until they decided to sell the land - I think they have a duty to see what’s happening around them. I just can’t understand the kind of teenage reasoning of “if it’s your private property you can do whatever you feel like doing”. Thompson and others involved must understand that people living close to wildlife has been treated like something very much less than citizens when they’ve been evicted to give place to national parks and private businesses. They’re under very high pressure as there’s not enough land and naturally there’s resentment against conservation. Of course, Thompson is in this to make money, but it looks like they also want to be seen as caring about wildlife. Then they must understand than treating people under pressure that have been grazing their animals for years on this land as trespassers can only lead to more resentment that will hurt wildlife. Btw, it must be against Tanzanian law to shoot at “trespassers”.
Even if Thompson Safaris have got the ownership of this land in a legally correct manner, which I doubt – some village leaders gave the land to TBL without villagers’ participation, but it didn’t cause too many problems as TBL just farmed a little bit for a year and then didn’t do anything for 12 years until they decided to sell the land - I think they have a duty to see what’s happening around them. I just can’t understand the kind of teenage reasoning of “if it’s your private property you can do whatever you feel like doing”. Thompson and others involved must understand that people living close to wildlife has been treated like something very much less than citizens when they’ve been evicted to give place to national parks and private businesses. They’re under very high pressure as there’s not enough land and naturally there’s resentment against conservation. Of course, Thompson is in this to make money, but it looks like they also want to be seen as caring about wildlife. Then they must understand than treating people under pressure that have been grazing their animals for years on this land as trespassers can only lead to more resentment that will hurt wildlife. Btw, it must be against Tanzanian law to shoot at “trespassers”.
May 11th, 2008, 04:21 AM
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Here’s the thread about this on Safaritalk (a forum recommended by 9 ½ of 10 topis).
http://safaritalk.net/index.php?showtopic=2500
http://safaritalk.net/index.php?showtopic=2500
May 11th, 2008, 04:37 AM
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Sniktawk, Thomson Safaris is the safari outfitter for my trips in Tanzania. I have other relationships in other countries. Because of this releationship, I know both the history of the area as well as the personalities involved. And I have visited their land in Loliondo last October. I just have more background than what the article mentions.
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