South Africa "going to the dogs"??
Jul 27th, 2007, 06:00 AM
#61
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I moved to Johannesburg in April from the states. Without a doubt this country is beautiful but has major problems.
The crime here is terrible. About two weeks ago a 12 year old was repeatedly stabbed by a gang of robbers during a breakin during broad day light in a "safe" area of Johannesburg. There are rapes, hijackings and murders every day here. Cape Town is much safer although I think its inevitable that with the changing demographics and the thousands of people moving into the area with no job and no future every day the crime will become as bad there.
The government is completely incompetent. Instead of spending money on fighting crime they waste R3B on renaming the JHB airport and then decide to prosecute apartheid-era ministers instead of spending the money on building a competent police force.
There are many many people who would go back to the old SA. My wife was classified "coloured" during apartheid and she as well as every other coloured that I have spoken to living on the Cape Flats would return to apartheid ahead of the shambles SA has become.
We like it here but doubt that there will be much of a future here in say ten years from now especially as those who can are leaving permanently.
The crime here is terrible. About two weeks ago a 12 year old was repeatedly stabbed by a gang of robbers during a breakin during broad day light in a "safe" area of Johannesburg. There are rapes, hijackings and murders every day here. Cape Town is much safer although I think its inevitable that with the changing demographics and the thousands of people moving into the area with no job and no future every day the crime will become as bad there.
The government is completely incompetent. Instead of spending money on fighting crime they waste R3B on renaming the JHB airport and then decide to prosecute apartheid-era ministers instead of spending the money on building a competent police force.
There are many many people who would go back to the old SA. My wife was classified "coloured" during apartheid and she as well as every other coloured that I have spoken to living on the Cape Flats would return to apartheid ahead of the shambles SA has become.
We like it here but doubt that there will be much of a future here in say ten years from now especially as those who can are leaving permanently.
Jul 27th, 2007, 02:43 PM
#62
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luangwablondes,
With all that you say that is so bad in SA what really amazes me is why you are still residing in SA? I assume that you you are an American and can leave for the States tomorrow morning if you wanted to, so I ask again why are you even in SA at all if in your opinion it such a terrible place to be living in with such a poor future?
Just curious!
Very proudly part of the wonderful
nation of South Africa
With all that you say that is so bad in SA what really amazes me is why you are still residing in SA? I assume that you you are an American and can leave for the States tomorrow morning if you wanted to, so I ask again why are you even in SA at all if in your opinion it such a terrible place to be living in with such a poor future?
Just curious!
Very proudly part of the wonderful
nation of South Africa
Jul 27th, 2007, 04:49 PM
#64
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nyama
Hold on. I am going to have a look....
Nope. No bars on the windows. Doors are unlocked. No massive wall around the property. No security system. Think I am still in the states. What a relief. This could have been one of those nightmares. Still a nightmare. The neighbors dog is leaving a deposit in the backyard. He's got a whole golf course and the mutt thinks this is his sandbox. Just isn't safe to walk in your own yard anymore.
Hold on. I am going to have a look....
Nope. No bars on the windows. Doors are unlocked. No massive wall around the property. No security system. Think I am still in the states. What a relief. This could have been one of those nightmares. Still a nightmare. The neighbors dog is leaving a deposit in the backyard. He's got a whole golf course and the mutt thinks this is his sandbox. Just isn't safe to walk in your own yard anymore.
Jul 29th, 2007, 11:11 AM
#67
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Tuckeg,
There most certainly are lots of negatives in SA just as there are in probably every other part of the world. I need not have to dwell on these issues as many of them have been discussed on this webpage before. With that said how about discussing the positives as opposed to the negatives after all they must exist as more and more tourists flock into SA by the day and lots of these folk return at a later stage in their lives. With that said something must be happening that makes these visitors happy . The answer to this is simple, they enjoy a great holiday with positives all round and they hardly ever, if ever, encounter the negatives that are spoken of on this board. I would challenge you to show me the multi mails of ACTUAL complaints and problems that visitors to SA have via the Fodors board or any other travel board relative to all the negative remarks one or two people keep publishing.. On the other hand I certainly can show you many, many, many mails on this board alone that are very positive about their SA journey with many even claiming their SA holiday to be the best they have ever had.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating and right now SA is boomimg when it comes to tourism. The numbers certainly dont lie and the reactions by visitors who have visited SA in the past on this board alone tell a very positive story. Thus I can only make the deduction that the positives outweigh the negatives when it comes to foreigners coming to my great country. With that said my apology goes out to you if you think that I dwell on the positives more than the negatives but what can I do other than tell the truth.
Makes one think does it not?
Very proudly part of the wonderful nation of South Africa
There most certainly are lots of negatives in SA just as there are in probably every other part of the world. I need not have to dwell on these issues as many of them have been discussed on this webpage before. With that said how about discussing the positives as opposed to the negatives after all they must exist as more and more tourists flock into SA by the day and lots of these folk return at a later stage in their lives. With that said something must be happening that makes these visitors happy . The answer to this is simple, they enjoy a great holiday with positives all round and they hardly ever, if ever, encounter the negatives that are spoken of on this board. I would challenge you to show me the multi mails of ACTUAL complaints and problems that visitors to SA have via the Fodors board or any other travel board relative to all the negative remarks one or two people keep publishing.. On the other hand I certainly can show you many, many, many mails on this board alone that are very positive about their SA journey with many even claiming their SA holiday to be the best they have ever had.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating and right now SA is boomimg when it comes to tourism. The numbers certainly dont lie and the reactions by visitors who have visited SA in the past on this board alone tell a very positive story. Thus I can only make the deduction that the positives outweigh the negatives when it comes to foreigners coming to my great country. With that said my apology goes out to you if you think that I dwell on the positives more than the negatives but what can I do other than tell the truth.
Makes one think does it not?
Very proudly part of the wonderful
nation of South Africa
Jul 29th, 2007, 01:03 PM
#69
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Travellers are happy thus the status of the country must be good. Interesting logic... IMO the 'travel world' is quite different from the real world.
Whatsoever, the original post of this thread wasn't about travelling, it wasn't about "should I spend my holiday in SA, or not". It was about the nation as a whole. And in this context also 'negative' opinions should be allowed.
Yesterday I read this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ma...l-news-128.xml
Quote: "Marthinus van Schalkwyk said government research showed that more than a third of potential tourists had cited safety concerns as a reason for not visiting South Africa since 2002."
No problems?
Whatsoever, the original post of this thread wasn't about travelling, it wasn't about "should I spend my holiday in SA, or not". It was about the nation as a whole. And in this context also 'negative' opinions should be allowed.
Yesterday I read this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ma...l-news-128.xml
Quote: "Marthinus van Schalkwyk said government research showed that more than a third of potential tourists had cited safety concerns as a reason for not visiting South Africa since 2002."
No problems?
Jul 29th, 2007, 01:39 PM
#70
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Nyama,
Fully agree that the original post was not about touring and that it was about the state of SA however my answer was a direct response to Tuckeg's question.
In terms of what to talk about I am not saying that one should not talk about the negatives, all that I am saying is what about the positives which obviously overwhelm the negatives?
Your quoting Van Schalkwyk's remarks would be ok but what he did not say is that tourism is on the increase in huge leaps on an annual basis and as far as I am concerned thats all that counts on the countries bottom line. I dont deny that a huge fat increase in tourism, if it included the third that VS speaks of, would be neat for the country but right now we have much bigger issues to address in this country while building it. Once these issues are addressed we will eventually reap in the pessimistic third of potential tourists too. At this stage I believe that a nice steady annual increase in tourism while we build the new South Africa is preferable to trying to woo the extra third of "missed" tourists. As it is if a third extra tourists had to come to SA our tourism quality will drop dramatically due to the fact that we would not be able to cope accommodation wise as well as in many other spheres of tourism. Thus right now we can do without these visitors purely because of logistics.
Just my twopence worth.
Very proudly part of the wonderful nation of South Africa
Fully agree that the original post was not about touring and that it was about the state of SA however my answer was a direct response to Tuckeg's question.
In terms of what to talk about I am not saying that one should not talk about the negatives, all that I am saying is what about the positives which obviously overwhelm the negatives?
Your quoting Van Schalkwyk's remarks would be ok but what he did not say is that tourism is on the increase in huge leaps on an annual basis and as far as I am concerned thats all that counts on the countries bottom line. I dont deny that a huge fat increase in tourism, if it included the third that VS speaks of, would be neat for the country but right now we have much bigger issues to address in this country while building it. Once these issues are addressed we will eventually reap in the pessimistic third of potential tourists too. At this stage I believe that a nice steady annual increase in tourism while we build the new South Africa is preferable to trying to woo the extra third of "missed" tourists. As it is if a third extra tourists had to come to SA our tourism quality will drop dramatically due to the fact that we would not be able to cope accommodation wise as well as in many other spheres of tourism. Thus right now we can do without these visitors purely because of logistics.
Just my twopence worth.
Very proudly part of the wonderful
nation of South Africa
Jul 29th, 2007, 05:56 PM
#71
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And, the total volume of tourists to SA is expected to increase over the next couple of years for the 2010 world cup? I did read somewhere about huge numbers of additional hotels etc etc., being built....
Jul 29th, 2007, 11:41 PM
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Selwyn,
We are in SA because my wife's family is here. Your views on SA are incredibly naive. Yes it is a beautiful country but your refusal to admit to there being any issues here such as the highest crime rate in the world, a third world mentatility by about 80% of the population, an incomepetent and corrupt government and police force (a metro cop tried to bribe me last week), the highest rate of aids in the world, 7000 refugees entering the country every day from Zim and tousands of qualified professionals leaving the country each week for australia or the uk.
Anyone with a brain would have concerns about the future in this country for a non-black person. I work for a major corporate company and I literally cannot hire non-blacks due to having to hit employment equity goals and the minister of labour states that affirmative action should be "tightened". That is a really smart thing to say when you are trying to attract foreign investment into SA.
We are in SA because my wife's family is here. Your views on SA are incredibly naive. Yes it is a beautiful country but your refusal to admit to there being any issues here such as the highest crime rate in the world, a third world mentatility by about 80% of the population, an incomepetent and corrupt government and police force (a metro cop tried to bribe me last week), the highest rate of aids in the world, 7000 refugees entering the country every day from Zim and tousands of qualified professionals leaving the country each week for australia or the uk.
Anyone with a brain would have concerns about the future in this country for a non-black person. I work for a major corporate company and I literally cannot hire non-blacks due to having to hit employment equity goals and the minister of labour states that affirmative action should be "tightened". That is a really smart thing to say when you are trying to attract foreign investment into SA.
Jul 30th, 2007, 08:49 AM
#73
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Selwyn,
Here's the problem, it is not that you dwell more on the positives than the negatives, it is that you never mention anything negative. I asked a simple question and yet you were not able to go on record with one negative. How can we rely on your opinions about crime and other SA problems when you cannot bring yourself to even admit they exist. Read Thembi's post, it contains as much hope for the promise of a new SA as your posts, but acknowledges the reality of the problems SA faces. Whose post do you think is more credible?
Every country in the world has problems and people come to Fodor's for a frank discussion of them, not for spin about how they don't exist.
Discussing the problems doesn't mean we won't visit these countries and have a wonderful time, it just means we will be aware of conditions in them and will take any necessary precautions.
Tuckeg
Here's the problem, it is not that you dwell more on the positives than the negatives, it is that you never mention anything negative. I asked a simple question and yet you were not able to go on record with one negative. How can we rely on your opinions about crime and other SA problems when you cannot bring yourself to even admit they exist. Read Thembi's post, it contains as much hope for the promise of a new SA as your posts, but acknowledges the reality of the problems SA faces. Whose post do you think is more credible?
Every country in the world has problems and people come to Fodor's for a frank discussion of them, not for spin about how they don't exist.
Discussing the problems doesn't mean we won't visit these countries and have a wonderful time, it just means we will be aware of conditions in them and will take any necessary precautions.
Tuckeg
Jul 30th, 2007, 11:08 AM
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luangwablondes,
After your last mail I once again ask the question why are you even in SA at all if in your opinion it such a terrible place to be living in with such a poor future?
Still very curious!
Very proudly part of the wonderful nation of South Africa
After your last mail I once again ask the question why are you even in SA at all if in your opinion it such a terrible place to be living in with such a poor future?
Still very curious!
Very proudly part of the wonderful nation of South Africa
Jul 30th, 2007, 11:15 AM
#77
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Tuckeg,
Nobody said SA was perfect least of all me. I have said this before and you would be correct in saying that I have said no further. Reason for this is I dont want to and just to remind you that is my right as the writer of the mail! The concept is called free speech which I might tell you I am very proud to say SA is proponent of. If you dont like the way I say what I say then crit it as much as you want on the forum or else simply dont read it, after all this is an open forum that prides itself on free speech too.
Just my twopence worth.
Very proudly part of the wonderful nation of South Africa
Nobody said SA was perfect least of all me. I have said this before and you would be correct in saying that I have said no further. Reason for this is I dont want to and just to remind you that is my right as the writer of the mail! The concept is called free speech which I might tell you I am very proud to say SA is proponent of. If you dont like the way I say what I say then crit it as much as you want on the forum or else simply dont read it, after all this is an open forum that prides itself on free speech too.
Just my twopence worth.
Very proudly part of the wonderful
nation of South Africa
Jul 30th, 2007, 12:01 PM
#78
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Be gentle on Selwyn. He apparently has a reading comprehension disorder like Dyslexia.
Selwyn-- These things have been discussed before in this thread. Again I ask, Please take the time to read slowly and carefully. The answer to your question is there.
Selwyn-- These things have been discussed before in this thread. Again I ask, Please take the time to read slowly and carefully. The answer to your question is there.
Jul 30th, 2007, 01:45 PM
#79
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luangwablondes,
Instead of you now becoming a medical expert and daignisong my dislexai or raeding disorder, please humour me and show me <b>exactly</b> what you have written in this thread that answers my curiosity. You need not worry because even with dislexai I think I will understand your writings. however please do be gentle in your response as per your own suggestions to others on how to treat me.
Btw even with your diagnosis of my reading order let me show you what I did find written by no-one other than luangwablondes within this thread.
"We like it here but doubt that there will be much of a future here in say ten years from now especially as those who can are leaving permanently"
"But I also can't live in constant fear of something happening to me. I've met too many people that have been robbed at home, had family and friends shot, even raped, had the police arrest the perps, only to be released later. Geez, I gotta stop. There is too many things wrong in this country that is going to take decades to work out, at least."
"I have traveled all over the world, and this is one of the only countries that puts me on edge, 24/7."
And then suddenly this pearl of wisdom pops up in the thread, ""Ooops. forgot to say, I do like South Africa."
The above all pushes my curiosity levels up a step or two so come on luangwablondes be gentle and tell me exactly why you still stay in this country with no long term future (your words not mine) called South Africa?
As always just very curious.
Very pruodly part of the wonderful nation of Suoth Africa
Instead of you now becoming a medical expert and daignisong my dislexai or raeding disorder, please humour me and show me <b>exactly</b> what you have written in this thread that answers my curiosity. You need not worry because even with dislexai I think I will understand your writings. however please do be gentle in your response as per your own suggestions to others on how to treat me.
Btw even with your diagnosis of my reading order let me show you what I did find written by no-one other than luangwablondes within this thread.
"We like it here but doubt that there will be much of a future here in say ten years from now especially as those who can are leaving permanently"
"But I also can't live in constant fear of something happening to me. I've met too many people that have been robbed at home, had family and friends shot, even raped, had the police arrest the perps, only to be released later. Geez, I gotta stop. There is too many things wrong in this country that is going to take decades to work out, at least."
"I have traveled all over the world, and this is one of the only countries that puts me on edge, 24/7."
And then suddenly this pearl of wisdom pops up in the thread, ""Ooops. forgot to say, I do like South Africa."
The above all pushes my curiosity levels up a step or two so come on luangwablondes be gentle and tell me exactly why you still stay in this country with no long term future (your words not mine) called South Africa?
As always just very curious.
Very pruodly part of the wonderful
nation of Suoth Africa
