luangwablondes

So how is the forum to get its credibility back as authority of African travel? There were a few people that advised newbies to go to Rocco. Is there a lesson learned from this? Is there any security going with the small or new TAs? How is the traveler to best protect himself in the future? Is part of the problem in the way that operators collect the money? What motivates them to perform as agreed? Should we advocate for change?

Not that I ever had a problem with agents who had arranged African safaris for me, but you can't help but wonder after reading the problems people have on the various forums.

cooncat3

And how, I respectfully wonder, does an honest, small business owner become a reputable, experienced one?

cybor

Hi cooncat,
By staying above board and keeping one's nose clean. Sandi, Eben and others never cross that fineline of self promoting. Business will always follow those who know their stuff, are competitive or find a nitch and stay ethical.

Luang,
I think most saw thru the BS and took it simply as entertainment or an obvious attempt to snag business. Unfortunately, a few got caught in the net.
No change nec. as this still remains one of the best and most diverse sites around.

luangwablondes

I wasn't necessary continuing on hammering rocco, but some of the things things like sending money without the itinerary being set or having it change after you are locked in, nonperformance by the TA and they have your deposit. How to determine the if you are dealing with a TA that is knowledgeable with what they sell. Just some of the recurring themes of postings.

I've exchanged emails with cooncat before regarding a couple things along that line and to give her credit, she was not interested in selling a safari that she did not have personal knowledge in. How do we find agents like that?

HariS

luangwablondes,

Most safari companies have authorized travel agents listed on their websites these days. If they don't have them listed then i would ask them to recommend a travel agent that is honest/reputable. All safari companies would/should be more than willing to do this!!!

That is the only protection for someone going on their first safari and have no idea about travel agents or safaris or itineraries etc etc etc.,

Hari

cybor

That, and word of mouth seem like good safety nets, although nothing and no one can predict when a co. can go bankrupt, fly the coop etc.

Even the best co. can have an unscupulous employee dipping in the pot, stealing from clients etc. That, and other reasons make me like dealing with small cos. with good reputations.

Not only can they not afford to take a hit by misbooking but they need our business and referrals to stay afloat.

Using a credit card seems like somewhat of a safety net, as well.
Also, there's a lot to be said about going with your gut. My guess is that there a far more good stories than bad and news of a bad operator flies fast thru the safari community. Case in point, our friend from Ca.

KayeN

Hi cooncat

Through time - experience only comes through time and learning from mistakes.

I do not think this forum has lost its credibility as having some knowledge of african travel. I do think that people think they know people's character from this forum, and that is ridiculous, as I read this forum everyday, okay more than once a day, and from people's posts I think I have some idea of the type of person they are, then all of a sudden, and god knows I have seen it a lot recently, they write something that makes me think that they have lost the plot big time. Then I think, well there you go, they really are strangers, what do you expect!

In all honesty, anyone that has taken a few trips to Africa, and then becomes an agent - get a grip - I am a agent for me, but there is no way I would consider charging people for my knowledge, because my knowledge is based on me and my preferences and after a few trips, it is very limited knowledge at best! A travel agent needs experience and to work your way up, as these trips are big dollars, and I think it was wrong of people to recommnend untested travel agents, who have booked a couple of trips. Having one trip work out well, is not enough to be recommending an agent to a stranger on this board. I understand you have to start somewhere, but not on very expensive African trips.

Kind regards

Kaye

HariS

One more thing.....we also learnt from all of these recent episodes: that being affiliated to associations like ASTA etc etc., doesnt say much.

However, another point to consider is...."is a person a travel agent" or just claims to be one........

If a person isn't a TA, then there is a likelihood that you are going to be caught in a SCAM.

Rgds,
Hari

mkhonzo

My view is that no matter what the size and or reputation of the company, there is simply no guarantee. We as consumers are vulnerable to these businesses going out of business at any time with our money and us without a safari. They have essentially no assets and consequently nothing that you can go after. Tough. (many compan ioes listed to far & Wide group of thugs onm their websites and that lot went as belly up as the best of them too)

Your only real peace of mind would be buying insurance and protecting yourself. Would I use an agent? Yes. I would use one because I do not know it all and I do not have relationships across all the plains, rivers and valleys in Africa where many of them do and are better positioned to suceed in planning my safari.

Would I take fodorite advise? Perhaps, perhaps not: What you often get here is regurgitated "fact" from people who have not been there and done that, particularly when it comes to agent recommendations.

Often someone will chime in on a request for an agent critique and offer five or six operators from a list of regulars who are punted around these forums, Destiny and Timeless amongst them....

You the consumer must judge...does a twenty/thirty something retired brain surgeon have the experience to be a safari aficionado, and if so why? Or should a "seasoned" African traveller obsessed with travel chat room forums have the necessary background to plan and execute a safari? Or does a professional who displays the knowledge & lives entirely off their safari business offer a better option for your trip?

Or are you just capable enough to plan the trip yourself and live with your errors, which are at the end of the day part of the journey and a healthy element of lifes great big learning curve?

barnetda

I am one of the owners of a lodge in the lower zambezi.

We have a list of authorised agents and also deal with customers direct.

If i can help checking a lodge out etc in the lower zambezi let me know. I can also tell you if i have heard of the agent if that helps at all.

cooncat3

MK Honzo makes some very good points and asks good questions. But the questionable personal characterizations tend to dilute the earnestness of the post.

I respect everyone's concerns and everyone's right to choose who to turn to when considering a trip to Africa.

I only ask that you respect us, by NOT lumping us in with Rocco. Not only is it unfair, it is simply an inaccurate comparison.

Thank you.

safarichuck

mkhonzo,
I think you put it very well. My only addition might be simply a warning that many forms of trip insurance do NOT insure against financial default of the travel agency. You can pick this out of www.insuremytrip.com, the exceptions are listed at the bottom of the "compare" page. Some insurance companies will even list the agencies that they will insure. I assume that these listings are some indication of the financial solvency of the company. I too enjoyed th Rocco posts, however he did come accross as a "flake". I don't think I would trust myself to distinguish legitimate agents from scamers on the basis of some forum posts. There are some excellent travel agencies that are devoted to African travel and have long established track records. These forums are great for antidotal information but I sometimes find the advice frightening in terms of medical information and self serving regarding travel planning. At the very least, anyone planning a safari for the first time should compare costs and services between the forum derived agents and the larger, well established travel agencies that specialize in private safaris. If the cost difference is significant (this will be different for each individual) then you can make a choice. Just be aware that you can establish a great working relationship with these larger African safari companies and accomplish a good personel relationship with a knowlegeable individual in that organization.
Regards, Chuck

Favor

In a way I don't think Rocco scammed anyone. If you read his posts I think he showed who he was all the time.

All the puffery of my itinerary can beat up your itinerary. The references to this marathon and that marathon. I think his postings distill out to exactly the sort of fantasia it appears he's offered up as product to some folks.

Now this is not to say he didn't pass on lots of useful information - he did. But when it comes to giving someone non-trivial money you need to gauge the solidity of character.

On a forum like this you need to look at the posts and do a bit of critical reading, along with a little comparative literature. ;-)

HariS

Mkhonzo,

I agree RE insurance and it's benefits.

However, the essence of this thread is regarding how best to guard yourself from a SCAM....yes, lots of money involved, but, also a lot of other issues that you are left with that are unresolved!

Hari

HariS

Sorry....that should read,"How best to make your own judgements to avoid being scammed". Insurance, i suppose would take care of the financial aspects of the SCAM.

napamatt

Sharon

I think you can and should be judged on your actions, several people active on this board have given positive feedback about you and your partner. You simply have to keep performing and getting that feedback and you will become reputable and experienced.

Favor has it correct, in all the enthusiasm for Rocco's posting prowess, not many people looked at his posts with too critical an eye. I used to get very annoyed with his criticism of Mala Mala, a place he had never been. I was also very uncertain of using an agent, who did not have a relationship with Wilderness Safari's, after all they do have some magnificient properties in Botswana and Namibia. Then of course there was his boxing photography job, he'd only just picked up a camera, suddenly he was an expert (remember Sigma lenses are much better than Canon), to me one name sums him up, Walter Mitty.

So Sharon behave like a normal, rational business person and expect when you've paid your dues to be treated like one. I have every confidence in your ability to get there.

LAleslie

Kaye's right about strangers. I read this forum all the time but not until today did I realize cooncat3 is an agent.
It bears repeating that information on forums and blogs is completely unfiltered. Therefore it's really up to the potential traveler to check out every "fact." While planning our first Southern Africa trip, if someone gave a tip here that intrigued me, I checked it out with as many other sources as possible. Often the info here is extremely useful. I got a fabuous Winelands guide that way, and a couple of good restaurants. But I also booked some stinkers that a consensus of people here and on other forums raved about. Such are the vagaries of travel.
I left most of the safari camps, the airport hotel, the air and ground transfers to my TA (tho Julian provided useful, and accurate, info about which if the subcamps inside Londolozi to choose). I personally am wary of travel agents as a group, and until our Africa trip have planned and booked almost everything myself after doing much homework.
But Africa is much different than, say, Western Europe. I didn't have friends who had been there. The countries, the geography and the cultures were completely foreign to me. They haven't been covered as well by reputable publications. The bucks being shelled out were big. That why I chose a travel agent with 20 years experience, a South African who goes there at least once a year.
I find that what's great about the Internet is how self-policing it ultimately is. This forum, with all its drawbacks, is entertaining and useful. The people that get stuck are often lazy: They don't want to spend their time researching, so they take one "expert's" recommendation and go with it. Kind of like Fodor's Roulette.
Leslie

HariS

Maybe a stupid question...

I think AMEX has superior protection policies? I hope more TA's can and will accept them.

nyama

Amex and Africa? Forget it.

hills27

FYI, Africa Adventure Company accepts Amex.