atravelynn

I have not seen Nina mentioned here either. It's good you brought her to our attention. Not being cited here is not that big of a deal. I think we can have a myopic view if we rely only on Fodors. I like some other independent source of verification such as a guide book. Winning the travel mag awards validates that an agent is not crooked or fly-by-night, but I think advertising dollars have a lot to do with those rankings.

For Africa or any destination, with a smaller agency I expect more personal attention. It seems you are definitely getting that with Timeless Africa. I also expect either better pricing or options/activities that the big guys cannot or do not provide.

The remaining comments would apply to any smaller, newer company, not just Timeless Africa, which I have no reason to doubt.

You can also ask about client trusts. Where does your deposit and other money go until it is transferred to the in-country operator? You can contact the camps/lodges directly to ensure you are really booked. I do these things sometimes but I admit I don't always pry that deeply with an agent.

Advantages & disadvantages of a big vs. small company:

A bigger company can help out better if there is a problem in my opinion. If all goes perfectly, the clout of the bigger companies may not be as noticeable. In fact, Africa Adventure did come to the rescue for me. I was heading to Uganda with 3 friends and we had 12 gorilla permits among us. Just before our departure in July 2001 there were problems that made us uncomfortable going to Bwindi. AAC traded our Uganda portion for Tanzania, did not charge us for the gorilla permits, and got us the lodging I requested in Tanzania. In addition they changed our international air tickets to a different country with no extra charge. Could a small company do this at the last minute? Maybe.

One other time an internal domestic flight in Botswana was simply cancelled, stranding many of us who were scheduled to leave the country on international carriers. AAC got me out on a different international carrier only one day late while others remained behind with no clue as to when seats might open up during the high season.

A smaller company, especially a new one trying to establish itself, may be able to offer you a unique advantage. They are making first impressions and extra effort will likely go into that. You can be the lucky recipient of that extra effort.

Big or small, I want the operator to have in depth knowledge of where they might be sending me. I’ll ask have you or any of your staff been there? A no answer doesn’t disqualify a company, but too many no’s would.

I’m glad you asked this big vs. small question because maybe someone with a good answer will respond.

Once on the ground and in the care of the local outfitter, how much clout does a big player vs. a small player really carry? I would think once you are in the hands of something like Wilderness Safaris (or similar), who sent you would not be as crucial because then Wilderness becomes the "big player." On the other hand, I would think smaller, less established local operations might pay more attention to who sent you because they may be more dependent on their biggest providers of clients.

I've asked guides if they know my agent based on the info on their clipboard. Their response has been no, even though their clipboard contained some other general info on me like how many times in Africa, dietary preferences, etc.

I've asked camp managers if they know what agent sends the clients and their response has been yes.

You could pose this question of bigger vs. smaller to the agents involved and see how the agents themselves respond.

It will be interesting when the quotes come in. If you are able to pass on any of that info, even just high and low bidder that would be helpful.

Addressing the promptness of your replies. AAC has never been particularly prompt except when the late changes in the itinerary from Uganda to Tanzania were being made. Then we were in daily contact. But I have planned way in advance when using them so that haste was not needed. All documents arrive in plenty of time and the bookings have always been made in time and correctly.

Large or small, in the US or abroad, I’ve never been ripped off.

Good luck and keep us posted.

atravelynn

I think you may have referred to this post, but if not, here is your exact question from awhile back.
http://fodors.com/forums/threadselec...p;tid=34938889

Kavey

Tripgirl, I do understand as I have spoken to Julian myself about possibility of booking a trip through them.

The +s are that I trust him absolutely, I know that he'll do his best for me and that he has a fantastic attention to detail.

The -s for me are that I'm not finding the knowledge base broad enough, certainly not as broad as that of the agents I used last time. And there's the other aspect of him still working almost full time in his research post. That said, he's looking after less clients than a full time agency so that may be irrelevant.

I think you must trust your instincts though and if they are leaning towards Julian, I'd go with that myself. He will certainly never leave you in the lurch nor give anything but his best. That is my impression anyway.

bigcountry

Ok Lynn, here you go. This was our first trip to the delta having travelled only to Kwando 2 years earlier and had seen numerous wild dog hunts so the delta had a lot to live up to. The only reason we didn't return to Kwando was because they didn't offer 3 people in a room and none of us wanted to stay alone. After 2 nights at Pom Pom camp and having seen no predators except a lone hyena, we were all regretting why we didn't just pay the single supplement and head back to Kwando. This is when we arrived at Vumbura main camp (the old one). Our guide K asked how our trip was going and could tell we had been a little disappointed so far. He promised things would change. On our first game drive we saw some tssebee and sable off in the distance all staring in one direction. K knew there must be a predator and we hurried over to find a medium sized male leopard lounging under a tree watching the grazers. We sat with him for about an hour until dusk when he started to circle downwind of the sable. They had lost interest in him a while back as he hadn't been active. One of the sable had a very young one with it and K said he's gonna go for that one as the adults are much more dangerous for obvious reasons. We followed the leopard for what felt like an hour (real elapsed time was probably 15 minutes) as it slinked through the tall grass toward the sable. we stayed a good distance back as to not interrupt the hunt. The leopard got close and sprung at the young sable. In a flash the mother kicked at the leopard and her and the young one charged off. we pulled up quickly to check on the leopard as it was slinking towards a termite mound. I thought it must have been injured by the sable and asked K if he thought so too as it crouched awkwardly near the mound. He told me to shhh as now we were only feet away and i realized what was going on. All of a sudden 2 warthogs burst out of a hole in the mound and our leopard sprung with lightning speed. He had the female hog in his grasp and began to slowly suffocate it. The squealing was very disturbing and we sat waiting for the wartie to die. All of a sudden the leopard tensed up and pulled the still kicking hog backward behind the tree that the mound set in front of. K swung the light to the right of the car (at this point it was fully dark) and we could see 2 hyenas bounding in. The sqealing had obviously called them in. The leopard didn't have the strength to carry the live warthog up the tree so he dropped her and sprung up the tree empty handed. The hyenas thought the hog was dead and begun dragging it by the ear when much to their surprise the warthog came to life and gored the dragging hyena sending it into the air and yelping. The warthog was now directly in front of its hole and backed in, tusks guarding the entrance (as we all know they do). the hyenas sulked around a little bit and eventually gave up. The leopard came out of the tree and headed off as did we back to camp. K had not disappointed and none of us were thinking about Kwando anymore.

Momliz

a + for me would be Julian's willingness to share information with us here, and the forum on Trip advisor. I don't think that Nina does, although with all our pseudonyms it's hard to tell. As a newb to this board I often wonder who we all are...

MoiraS

Hi! I'm in sort of a similar position looking at different agents for my trip to Botswana, Zambia, and South Africa next year. I haven't contacted anyone yet but I've been reading a lot.

I found a thread which might help you, posted by a Fodorite who worked with Julian.

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34847551

I agree with Momliz that it's great that people like Julian and Sandi (East Africa) are willing to spend their time sharing information with us on this forum...I've learned so much from them!

Moira

Marija

Last year when planning a last minute East African safari I had the same concerns. I worried that if I booked through a small agency I could be left stranded in the African bush without anyone to come find us. So I booked directly with CCAfrica, a large provider. The booking process was a disaster. They certainly didn't need our business and it showed. We didn't even make the final payment until 2 weeks before we left because the agent wouldn't send me info on the amount due.

Once we were in Africa, CCAfrica on the ground took over and the trip was flawless. We couldn't have been stranded because CCAfrica staff took us to the landing strip and picked us up from the strip. No worries about when to leave for planes, everything was set. It was also clear that it didn't matter in the least who had made the reservations. We were all equal to the ground staff. If I had used a reputable agent to deal with CCAfrica, instead of doing it myself, I would have been spared a lot of grief.

Fast forward a year. Come March we decide we really want to go to Southern Africa and we want to do it this summer. (You think I would have learned from the first safari to plan ahead!) This time I'm not worried about being stranded because I know how the process works. We like what we have read about Wilderness Safari properties and wanted an agent who deals with them. We also knew that we would need someone who had the patience to put together a good trip based on what would be limited availability. We weren't going to spend the money if we couldn't get into good camps.

Based on a recommendation I e-mailed Uncharted Outposts. They sent back a friendly but discouraging e-mail suggesting that we plan for 2008. That's when I decided to contact Julian to see what he could put together. I figured he was hungrier for business and would try harder. He was prompt, responsive and planned what I hope will be a great trip (leaving 26 June), including 3 nights at Little Mombo. We're staying at Kulala Wilderness Camp, Ongava Lodge, Seba, Little Mombo, Selinda and Sindabezi, followed by 3 nights in Capetown. (I also discovered that Wilderness Safaris doesn't deal directly with many of the smaller agents, including Timeless Africa, and they route their reservations through www.eyesonafrica.com.)

Based on our East African experiene, I know that I won't have to call on Julian to come get us. That's what Wilderness Safaris is for. If our international flights get detailed, I don't expect Julian to deal with them. That's our problem.

After Julian's return from his current trip, he even e-mailed us telling us what guides he had requested at the different camps.

atravelynn

What a tale, <b>Big Country.</b> I won't even try to put that one in the good guy-bad guy terms that have been surfacing lately. From my own &quot;favor the cute and cuddly&quot; bias, which is completely unjustified, I am glad the sable calf got away that time. Will you be posting on the Countdown to Your Departure thread with your next trip anytime soon?

<b>Marija</b>, you have made a fascinating and revealing point along with several good observations. I knew Wilderness was very selective about who it books with. You are stating that the smaller agents work through a larger one.

To me that has two implications. One, is that it helps legitimize the transacations by the smaller agent, if that was a concern. It is one more check and balance. Some of the expertise of the larger company may also benefit the smaller company as they interact and discuss bookings. Two, I would wonder what the premium was for this service and if that premium is being passed on to the customer.

I am using Eyes on Africa for this June's South Africa trip and have found them to be very responsive, knowledgeable, and just plain enjoyable to work with. Compared to something like CCAfrica or Africa Adventure, I think of Eyes on Africa as smaller. I don't know if those perceptions are reality, though.

You have a great itineray through Timeless Africa. Offering to request guides is a nice personal touch for your benefit. I am sure your trip will be a smashing success.

If TripGirl can wait until your return, you could serve as one more reference supporting Timeless Africa.

MoiraS

Very interesting post and comments, Atravelynn! This thread has been really helpful.

Based on what I've read on the net about how travel agents work, it looks like this kind of arrangement is pretty common between smaller agencies and larger ones. The smaller agency gives up some of the commission to the larger agency. It looks like this wouldn't really affect your cost as a client unless the smaller agency wanted or needed to make up the lost money and added some extra charges on top.

So from a pricing standpoint it might actually be an advantage that Julian has an alternative source of income (at least for now...it sounds like he plans to go full time into the travel business) since this means that he doesn't need to squeeze every dime out of every safari, which some new companies might need to do just to make ends meet.

I work with a lot of small startup companies where the partners often have to juggle two jobs for awhile while launching the new business (mortgage payments, student loans, etc still need to be paid, and it can be a few years before a new company turns a profit). From what I've seen this doesn't make a huge difference to the success of the company (meaning satisfied clients as well as financial success) as long as the person is willing to work hard and do a good work. From people's comments here it sounds like they are getting good service from Timeless Africa which is good to hear!

Moira

lifetime2explore

Dear travel companions,
It has become clear to me that most agents are really unqualified to offer personal recommendations when they have never visited the camps themselves. Have you ever tried the experiment of inquiring through a few operators and then receiving almost a carbon copy proposal from each one? Who is fooling who?

We don't spend so many $$$$'s to be fed through a sausage machine and end up traveling on our tailored safari with the same two couples we met on day one!

It seems that Wilderness Safaris respond to all the agents the same way. They control the best wildlife concessions in Botswana and have a monopoly.

Don't just do a Wilderness circuit, but vary your itinerary and compare your options! Find a neutral agent who will genuinely personalize your trip based on your requirements.

MoiraS

Hi Lifetime,

Your post brings up an interesting point, and my knee jerk reaction as a card carrying liberal Democrat is to be against monopolies.

But at the same time, like many people the main goal of our trip is to have the best game viewing...particularly since we're from California and it's a loooong way to Africa! As you say Wilderness Safaris has many of the best concessions, so to me it seems to make sense to go with them. From what I've read their camps are very nice, the guiding is great and things run smoothly on their safaris. I've also read a lot about other safari companies like CCAfrica and Orient-Express and Sanctuary, and Wilderness and CCAfrica seem to have the strongest community involvement which is important to us.

What companies do you recommend instead of Wilderness?

Moira

atravelynn

I know what you mean Moira. The phrase that stuck out for me in Lifetime's post was &quot;they control the best wildlife concessions in Botswana.&quot; Though I don't have a lot to compare it with, I cannot quibble with the quality of Wilderness's concessions. That's why I go there. Not for their fancy tents, and even the 5- Paw camp I stayed in was exceptional, not for the outstanding food, but for their quality guiding, and location, location, location.

Kwando is on my list, though.

atravelynn

Here is a link to a post examining some of these similar questions. It comes nicely around to the topic of Julian again, who responded with some informative comments.

http://fodors.com/forums/threadselec...p;tid=34863213

MoiraS

Very interesting...thanks! My liberal Democrat conscience can now sleep easy...it looks like Wilderness is not really a monopoly at all, since the camps are owned and run by different small companies but marketed by Wilderness.

Moira

nyama

Interesting definition of monopoly.

As far as I know monopoly is defined as a market situation where a special service or product is offered by only a single provider. In this special case it's completely irrelevant who owns the camps - Wilderness is the only provider and controls the market, at least for these concessions.

However, since there are still enough other competitors I wouldn't call them a monopolist.

HariS

Lynn, on your CCAfrica comment......i booked a SA safari with them in 2006 and they were superb from start to finish. The particular rep who was working for my particular booking was awesome!!! (Leigh). I guess, there area always good and bad days where the responses are slow, holidays etc etc.,

Hari

raelond

For my trip to Botswana and Zambia last June I did a lot of research and picked Wilderness camps in Botswana based on my research. I had orginally wanted to stay at Kwando camps, but their high season started June 15th, while Wilderness started July lst at that time. I booked through an agent in the Vancouver area and told him exactly what I wanted. Our first camp was Kwetsani and we loved it. Game viewing was great, with a kill right in front of our camp the 2nd day there. I have booked a trip to Tanzania next March and felt confident about booking directly with a company in Tanzania (Greenfoot Print). I think a lot depends on the time of year, your guide and of course your expectations.

napamatt

Kavey

The Vumbura area has improved dramatically in game viewing since 2001, at that time it had only just stopped being a hunting area, it takes time for the animals to relax. Our guide Grant reckoned another five years and Vumbura will be spectacular.

I can second strong recommendations for Eyes on Africa, every year they visit many camps as guests and make extended stays (paying more than agents on a 1 night educational) as their own vacation, this definitely gives a better feel for a camp. By all accounts Julian is talking his business very seriously and plans to make it his career, and he again has spent a lot of time in Botswana as a guest first.

atravelynn

Hari, I think it was Marija that had CCAfrica difficulties. I found all contacts with them to be prompt and professional, but I booked my CCAfrica camp through Eyes on Africa, not direct.

Your safari should be underway by now!

CountryLiving

We are using Timeless Africa for our upcoming trip to Botswana in August. In fact, I just sent in our final payment. The irony is that we are going to Kwetsani in addition to Duma Tau, Chitabe Trails, and San Camp. Julian made some suggestions and then the five of us did some research. We made some choices but it did come down to availablility for our inflexible schedule. I've found Timeless Africa to be professional in every way. Julian is quick in responding to emails and providing us the information we need. I am really getting excited about our trip and I imaginge Little Vumbura or Kwetsani you will have a fantastic trip too.