Kenya travel April only time we can go what to expect?
Nov 14th, 2009, 09:10 PM
#21
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I am the wife of 'PaulTraveller'. No secret there. We had never posted on any travel forum before, but now felt the need to warn other travelers of the dangers. My husband has also posted our experience on other fourms.
Spassvogel - You made a comment 'As these people who have been robbed at Naibor would have given interviews to newspapers or TV channels appearing in countless living rooms' Have you seen this reported in any newspapers or TV channels ? NO!! Because it would harm the tourism industry. This incident [and others I assume]are being kept quiet. We realised that the only place information about the robbery will be heard about is on open forums like this.
I am sorry if you felt I was attacking you on your comments about Naibor. I hope you can understand that this is a very sensitive issue for our family right now, and I would not wish our experience on anyone. However, I do wonder how you can make the claims about Naibors safety and our experience being reported in newspapers and tv.
The evidence we have regarding a staff member being involved was given to the police, camp manager and camp owners.
Lastly, I know robberies can happen anywhere in the world, but the way these men came storming into our tent, attacked and robbed us was terrifying. What kind of human beings beats 2 teenage boys while they were sleeping? It was obvious they meant business and had little regard for life. This with the pathetic support of the owners of the camp leaves a very sour taste for Kenya.
Spassvogel - You made a comment 'As these people who have been robbed at Naibor would have given interviews to newspapers or TV channels appearing in countless living rooms' Have you seen this reported in any newspapers or TV channels ? NO!! Because it would harm the tourism industry. This incident [and others I assume]are being kept quiet. We realised that the only place information about the robbery will be heard about is on open forums like this.
I am sorry if you felt I was attacking you on your comments about Naibor. I hope you can understand that this is a very sensitive issue for our family right now, and I would not wish our experience on anyone. However, I do wonder how you can make the claims about Naibors safety and our experience being reported in newspapers and tv.
The evidence we have regarding a staff member being involved was given to the police, camp manager and camp owners.
Lastly, I know robberies can happen anywhere in the world, but the way these men came storming into our tent, attacked and robbed us was terrifying. What kind of human beings beats 2 teenage boys while they were sleeping? It was obvious they meant business and had little regard for life. This with the pathetic support of the owners of the camp leaves a very sour taste for Kenya.
Nov 15th, 2009, 12:53 AM
#22
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Trac0, I think about how I would have felt if it had happened to my children and I just feel sick. We can be very glib about the dangers of safaris both animal and human, and if we have only experienced the wonderful, friendly people of Kenya then it is easy to dismiss the ugly side. I know all countries have this, but your experience is horrifying and I would hate to think that any of us down played what you went through.
Thank you for posting the information and I hope the camp I'm heading to has good security, in fact I will be checking forthwith.
Thank you for posting the information and I hope the camp I'm heading to has good security, in fact I will be checking forthwith.
Nov 15th, 2009, 02:21 AM
#23
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HI there
Can I just have this one last clarification response on our Incident at Naibor on 07 October, and to expand on my wife’s last post. The reason my wife and I decided to post our bad experiences, not only on this travel site, but also other sites, is because we feel that we needed to alert others because :
• There are risks of violent crime occurring in the Masai Mara game reserve, we blindly assumed it is remote enough to be free of this type of activity which most people think is limited to Nairobi. Our research since has shown there have been previous incidents of a similar nature in the Mara.
• Alert others to the fact that our particular camp did not have security against such incidents, despite a similar robbery occurring only 4-6 weeks before at the Entim Camp (I also understand the Entim camp has been struck before).
• I am absolutely convinced that staff members were involved which were passed on to management, who summarily ignored them. I have also passed this information to the Ministry of Tourism and KATO. Too many pointers lead me to the conclusion this was simply a chance hit and run robbery:
o The camp was hit on the first night it was completely full offering maximum opportunity for reward.
o The camp was hit within 10 minutes of the last guests retiring to their tent, ensuring all guests were locatable.
o The bandits started the robbery by discharging a shotgun adjacent to the manager’s tent. I was a guest at Naibor for 5 nights prior to the robbery and I still don’t know where the manager’s tent was located because of the way the tents are positioned among the trees. However these robbers apparently wandered in to the camp without having been there before, or without facilitation from a staff member and knew exactly where the managers accommodation was located? I don’t think so
o The 2 way radios provided by Naibor in every guest’s tent were taken from our tent, and also from our children’s tent, before the robbery. These radios had been in our tents every night of our stay but mysteriously disappeared on the night of the robbery, removed from our tent before we returned from dinner that evening. I know they were missing before the bandits entered out tent because I tried to find our radio after I heard the gunshots, and so did my children in their tent. The radios were gone BEFORE the robbery, no question. As we were one of the last, if not the last guests, to retire for the evening my conclusion is that the staff member or members supporting the bandits made preparations by removing the radios so that we had no lines of communication. We advised the Naibor Camp managers of this fact immediately after the robbery.
• The Kenya Ministry or Tourism and Kenya Association of Travel Operators don’t give a damn. We have corresponded with both regarding our incident and have not had one reply from either. You get the feeling they have a vested interest in preventing bad news from being circulated. In my opinion the real truth only comes from these sorts of open travel forums, not glossy holiday brochures or polished websites
For all the doubters about this event I can assure you it was real and it happened, I could post the police reports lodged after the incident as proof, but if others choose not to believe our story that’s their call. spassvogel you seem to be the most doubting of our story, I would be interested in the response from the Kenya Ministry of Tourism and/or KATO on our incident, if and when you do contact them. They have never bothered to respond to our correspondence. It would be also great of you could also contact the Naibor Camp owners to get their story , I am sure they will play the incident down, or deny it ever happened .
Naibor Owners are:
Anthony Cheffings of On Safari Kenya www.onsafarikenya.com
and Nigel Archer of Nigel Archer Safaris www.nigelarchersafaris.com
The only advice to other Masai Mara travelers I can offer from our experience is:
1. be alert to signs of trouble, if we had reacted quickly enough there would have been enough time to hide before the robbers made it to our tent. I would rather risk it in the bush with the wild animals than have to kneel at the foot of a man with a machete again, or hear my children being slapped around in the tent next nearby. (Most of the Naibor staff had time to run and hide as the robbers were moving thru the camp, they just never bothered to tell the guests).
2. if you do get caught give the robbers your money etc, don’t argue
3. stay in a large lodge (the Serena lodge is central to the central Mara) not a tented camp
4. If you must stay in a tented camp then call beforehand and make sure the camp have armed guards.
My lesson is when choosing a holiday focus on security first, in the end nothing else really matters.
Can I just have this one last clarification response on our Incident at Naibor on 07 October, and to expand on my wife’s last post. The reason my wife and I decided to post our bad experiences, not only on this travel site, but also other sites, is because we feel that we needed to alert others because :
• There are risks of violent crime occurring in the Masai Mara game reserve, we blindly assumed it is remote enough to be free of this type of activity which most people think is limited to Nairobi. Our research since has shown there have been previous incidents of a similar nature in the Mara.
• Alert others to the fact that our particular camp did not have security against such incidents, despite a similar robbery occurring only 4-6 weeks before at the Entim Camp (I also understand the Entim camp has been struck before).
• I am absolutely convinced that staff members were involved which were passed on to management, who summarily ignored them. I have also passed this information to the Ministry of Tourism and KATO. Too many pointers lead me to the conclusion this was simply a chance hit and run robbery:
o The camp was hit on the first night it was completely full offering maximum opportunity for reward.
o The camp was hit within 10 minutes of the last guests retiring to their tent, ensuring all guests were locatable.
o The bandits started the robbery by discharging a shotgun adjacent to the manager’s tent. I was a guest at Naibor for 5 nights prior to the robbery and I still don’t know where the manager’s tent was located because of the way the tents are positioned among the trees. However these robbers apparently wandered in to the camp without having been there before, or without facilitation from a staff member and knew exactly where the managers accommodation was located? I don’t think so
o The 2 way radios provided by Naibor in every guest’s tent were taken from our tent, and also from our children’s tent, before the robbery. These radios had been in our tents every night of our stay but mysteriously disappeared on the night of the robbery, removed from our tent before we returned from dinner that evening. I know they were missing before the bandits entered out tent because I tried to find our radio after I heard the gunshots, and so did my children in their tent. The radios were gone BEFORE the robbery, no question. As we were one of the last, if not the last guests, to retire for the evening my conclusion is that the staff member or members supporting the bandits made preparations by removing the radios so that we had no lines of communication. We advised the Naibor Camp managers of this fact immediately after the robbery.
• The Kenya Ministry or Tourism and Kenya Association of Travel Operators don’t give a damn. We have corresponded with both regarding our incident and have not had one reply from either. You get the feeling they have a vested interest in preventing bad news from being circulated. In my opinion the real truth only comes from these sorts of open travel forums, not glossy holiday brochures or polished websites
For all the doubters about this event I can assure you it was real and it happened, I could post the police reports lodged after the incident as proof, but if others choose not to believe our story that’s their call. spassvogel you seem to be the most doubting of our story, I would be interested in the response from the Kenya Ministry of Tourism and/or KATO on our incident, if and when you do contact them. They have never bothered to respond to our correspondence. It would be also great of you could also contact the Naibor Camp owners to get their story , I am sure they will play the incident down, or deny it ever happened .
Naibor Owners are:
Anthony Cheffings of On Safari Kenya www.onsafarikenya.com
and Nigel Archer of Nigel Archer Safaris www.nigelarchersafaris.com
The only advice to other Masai Mara travelers I can offer from our experience is:
1. be alert to signs of trouble, if we had reacted quickly enough there would have been enough time to hide before the robbers made it to our tent. I would rather risk it in the bush with the wild animals than have to kneel at the foot of a man with a machete again, or hear my children being slapped around in the tent next nearby. (Most of the Naibor staff had time to run and hide as the robbers were moving thru the camp, they just never bothered to tell the guests).
2. if you do get caught give the robbers your money etc, don’t argue
3. stay in a large lodge (the Serena lodge is central to the central Mara) not a tented camp
4. If you must stay in a tented camp then call beforehand and make sure the camp have armed guards.
My lesson is when choosing a holiday focus on security first, in the end nothing else really matters.
Nov 15th, 2009, 07:27 AM
#24
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Paul and wife
I am very sorry when I have misinterpreted your first post(s) or doubted the incident.
As I stated earlier there were camp owners trowing dirt on to each other to damage the business or rather get the business. That was the reason for me to take your initial post(s) maybe on to a light shoulder.
We love being in tented camps, small intimate tented camps.......but now I admit I start feeling differently.
As you have got the papers and you had to stand that incident I would rather go even more forward and get my warning out loud so that more people hear of it to be warned. What about contacting TV travel magazins? TV and print mediums. If I were in your shoes having all the proof I would definitely go forward and inform as many as possible people.
Hope you accept my apology for not taking your warning seriously.
SV
PS
I am wondering there are several tour operators on board here who all sell and promote Kenya and the Massai Mara particularly. Why are they hiding? They must have recived information not only on that robbery.
Isn't it a TO's responsibility to clear any doubt or inform people of incidents in order to protect them or take appropriate safety measures?
As fas as I understood (now I know better) being a TO should be more than just making a buck/selling.
I am very sorry when I have misinterpreted your first post(s) or doubted the incident.
As I stated earlier there were camp owners trowing dirt on to each other to damage the business or rather get the business. That was the reason for me to take your initial post(s) maybe on to a light shoulder.
We love being in tented camps, small intimate tented camps.......but now I admit I start feeling differently.
As you have got the papers and you had to stand that incident I would rather go even more forward and get my warning out loud so that more people hear of it to be warned. What about contacting TV travel magazins? TV and print mediums. If I were in your shoes having all the proof I would definitely go forward and inform as many as possible people.
Hope you accept my apology for not taking your warning seriously.
SV
PS
I am wondering there are several tour operators on board here who all sell and promote Kenya and the Massai Mara particularly. Why are they hiding? They must have recived information not only on that robbery.
Isn't it a TO's responsibility to clear any doubt or inform people of incidents in order to protect them or take appropriate safety measures?
As fas as I understood (now I know better) being a TO should be more than just making a buck/selling.
Nov 16th, 2009, 01:35 PM
#25
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Trac0 and Paul Traveller: thank you so much for posting of your horrible event at Naibor. I agree that these types of forums are likely the only way to get your story out there. I applaud you for doing so. I would certainly not go to that camp after reading of your misfortune. I hope the camp owners do indeed suffer the financial consequences of lost business, which it sounds like would be the only thing they would care about.
Nov 16th, 2009, 05:30 PM
#26
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PaulTraveller and TracO,
Thanks for posting this information. I'm curious about the reaction of the police. Did they also display a callous or coverup attitude? (It's not surprising that the tourism people don't want this out.) Also, did you file a report with the U.S. Embassy?
Aslo, I have to defend spassvogel in his attempt to pin down a story from anonymous sources. It makes sense. Your story has great credibility, but anyone can say anything on the Internet and without hard eveidence or a credible news source, it's perfectly understandable to want more information.
Thanks for posting this information. I'm curious about the reaction of the police. Did they also display a callous or coverup attitude? (It's not surprising that the tourism people don't want this out.) Also, did you file a report with the U.S. Embassy?
Aslo, I have to defend spassvogel in his attempt to pin down a story from anonymous sources. It makes sense. Your story has great credibility, but anyone can say anything on the Internet and without hard eveidence or a credible news source, it's perfectly understandable to want more information.
Nov 17th, 2009, 02:41 AM
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The day after the robbery the KWS rangers were at the camp and all persons robbed filed a report, written only. They did not want to give us an opportunity for an interview to discuss the events in detail. The reporting was also very rushed as we had to leave at 10.30 am to catch the flight to Nairobi
Do I feel there was a cover-up? Probably no. However I did get the feeling they were “going thru the motions” with respect to the reporting process. They did endeavor to track the bandits the next day using sniffer dogs, obviously without success.
From my recollection of events, probably only about 10 minutes elapsed from when we thought the bandits had left the camp site (and we were told the bandits arrived and left on foot) to when the Rangers arrived. So I do find it very surprising the bandits were not quickly tracked down and caught. Does that indicate collusion by the police, I guess each person can draw their own conclusion in that regard
Aside from missing radios, gunshots are a big hint something is not right, in hind sight we had time to run and hide, but robbery never crossed my mind and so we never reacted. And believe me do not rely on the camp staff for guidance or advice during such an emergency. Basically in an emergency you are on your own, it is your call whether you run and hide or stay.
We also did file a report with the Australian High Commission in Nairobi, and have had followup since.
Do I feel there was a cover-up? Probably no. However I did get the feeling they were “going thru the motions” with respect to the reporting process. They did endeavor to track the bandits the next day using sniffer dogs, obviously without success.
From my recollection of events, probably only about 10 minutes elapsed from when we thought the bandits had left the camp site (and we were told the bandits arrived and left on foot) to when the Rangers arrived. So I do find it very surprising the bandits were not quickly tracked down and caught. Does that indicate collusion by the police, I guess each person can draw their own conclusion in that regard
Aside from missing radios, gunshots are a big hint something is not right, in hind sight we had time to run and hide, but robbery never crossed my mind and so we never reacted. And believe me do not rely on the camp staff for guidance or advice during such an emergency. Basically in an emergency you are on your own, it is your call whether you run and hide or stay.
We also did file a report with the Australian High Commission in Nairobi, and have had followup since.
Nov 17th, 2009, 06:29 AM
#29
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There are several threads on this, but I did post a response from a TO in Nairobi who sent me a copy of the REPORT written by Naibor camp's owners.
Obviously a bit different account than Paul's, but in my heart I believe Paul would not exaggerate this horrific experience. I saw several points in the report (that everyone can read for themselves) that made me feel it was being a bit too rehearsed.
As I said to the TO, if it was just a robbery, why not while the guests were at dinner together out of their tents? Just slip into into the tents and steal what they wanted - why wait til they are in the tents asleep - why put them through this and with children there of all things. It is a physical assault not just a robbery. That is what makes it all the more terrifying to me.
So, it is on SPASSVOGAL's posting on Tour Operators and Safety etc. that I am sure you have seen. Afraid I am not good at posting links, so if someone else wants to do it, I'd appreciate it.
I know people were wondering what Naibor had to say. This document is what was submitted.
FP
Obviously a bit different account than Paul's, but in my heart I believe Paul would not exaggerate this horrific experience. I saw several points in the report (that everyone can read for themselves) that made me feel it was being a bit too rehearsed.
As I said to the TO, if it was just a robbery, why not while the guests were at dinner together out of their tents? Just slip into into the tents and steal what they wanted - why wait til they are in the tents asleep - why put them through this and with children there of all things. It is a physical assault not just a robbery. That is what makes it all the more terrifying to me.
So, it is on SPASSVOGAL's posting on Tour Operators and Safety etc. that I am sure you have seen. Afraid I am not good at posting links, so if someone else wants to do it, I'd appreciate it.
I know people were wondering what Naibor had to say. This document is what was submitted.
FP
Nov 17th, 2009, 06:40 AM
#30
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http://www.fodors.com/community/afri...fety-issue.cfm
Think I figured it out, if this works as the link - great!
If not, well,sorry but I tried...
FP
Think I figured it out, if this works as the link - great!
If not, well,sorry but I tried...
FP
Nov 17th, 2009, 06:04 PM
#31
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Paul, please forgive this American for assuming you are one too. Something about the way you wrote made me think that. Am glad you filed with the Australian High Commission.
Too much weird stuff going on in Kenya now politically and crime-wise for some people's comfort. What a shame.
Too much weird stuff going on in Kenya now politically and crime-wise for some people's comfort. What a shame.
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