hi, Selwyn

first of all I'm sorry our day out with you didn't take place - I'm sure we'd have gained a lot from it.

secondly, I agree vey largely with your views on this board. Whilst we were in SA, we were regailed with dire tales of murder and mahem, within your many communties. in vain did we point out that all major cities have similar problems. at the moment in the UK, we have an appalling problem with youngsters being gunned down, seemingly by other youngsters, on an almost daily basis. the last victim was only 11 years of age.

will that stop tourists coming to the UK? i very much doubt it. one victim was shot as he drove his motorbike down the motorway. Should that stop tourists hiring cars? of course not.

we all need to retain a sense of proportion.

regards, ann

Ann,
To compare SA with the UK is crazy in terms of crime. Tell me does everyone in the UK live behind electric fences, with radar beams and security bars to detect intruders. Do babies get raped because the blacks believe that by raping babies they will be cured of aids. Do 85 year olds get raped? Do you have a government who tells the whites they must leave if they won't accept the crime problem? Do you have a government who is more interested in trying (and convicting) former government officials instead of hijackers who are let out on R500 bail? Do you have a government who wants to try a former President and Nobel Peace price winner FW de Klerk?

Selywn,

Since you mentioned posting newspaper articles in your response to me and suggested since they deal with single events they are not meaningful, I have to point out that the article I posted was about 18 attacks. As I stated, I posted so visitors would be aware of current conditions, not so they would avoid visiting.

I am not suggesting not staying in the townships (with proper security), nor is South Africa dangerous enough to keep me from visiting or from recommending my friends visit. I am saying that the posts here by you and others that equate the level of crime in SA to that in the USA and Europe are way off the mark. Virtually all the South Africans I know agree with my assessment.

Tuckeg

hi, lagunna,

yes, in fact we do have rapists who have raped babies and very old people, we do have gated communities, we do have alleged criminals who inexplicably get bail to commit crimes again [and very serious crimes at that - witness the recent scandal that the government here were not deporting foreign criminals at the end of their sentences but were just letting them go in some cases to murder again] and we do have people who want to prosecute tony blair for war crimes!

it seems to me that you have fallen into the same trap as the people i met in SA who seem to think that SA has a monopoly on horrible crimes. it doesn't.

there is no point in our trying to cap each other in the villany department. my point is that every "developed" nation has these sorts of problems to greater or lesser degree. Given the gross and obvious disparity between rich and poor in SA, it is hardly surprising that you have this problem. but that does not mean that tourists can't enjoy happy and safe holidays in your country if they take sensible precautions, just like we did.

regards, ann

Leaving tomorrow after driving around Cape Town (and another 2000+ km driving tour of SA - Joburg to KZN to Nelspruit to Sabi to Pretoria to Madikwe and back to Joburg, then all around the western Cape) and haven't felt insecure once, day or night. Just use my usual big city street smarts (in cities) and try to avoid goats that go bump in the night in the counrt

Cripes, I hate this laptop keyboard...

...in the country.

Only unexpected encounter was with a certain Selwyn today amongst the penguins at Boulders Beach in Simons Town. Didn't involve a car, though, just a boardwalk. Nice to meet you - I CT too .

I don't think it's available online yet, but there was an excellent article in the SA Sunday Times today quoting Suze Orman (US financial guru) on the crime issue - paraphrasing, "Your democracy is still a teenager. Crime is what it is. Give yourselves time." She plans to move to JNB and spend half the year in SA in the near future.

Selwyn,
So you are now saying that the police, who are staioned no more than one kilometer from you would have taken three hours.
You and I work in the Townships. The people who visit here depend on sound information. They do not know the Townships. You are dangerous to the industry.
PEOPLE DIE IN LESS THAN 20 MINS. Follow protocol.
I think that all issues should be pursued until a solution is found. I cannot afford that you cause problems in an industry from which I earn a living.

africanj

I live 4 km from a police station (Sea Point). I also happen to be the chairman of my body corporate. Hence when we had a serious incident in our building about 4 months ago I called for the police. We are still awaiting there arrival. Enough said.

I would love to know what qualifies you to make the statement that I am dangerous to the industry and would also like to know whose and what protocol you claim I should follow and please dont talk to about the basics such as insurance, licensing, permits etc as I obviously do all those things and work 100% within the framework of the law.

I've been around for close onto 10 years and I dont know of anybody that I have ever put out of business as yet. As a matter of fact I can think of at least 13 guides that I have put into business by helping them start up and continue succesfully on their own.

Very proudly part of the wonderful nation of South Africa

Ann,
Yes you have crime but not nearly on the same scale as here-that is why SA is the most dangerous country in the world outside a war zone! Please do not preach to someone who lives here when you have only visited, probably stayed in 5* hotels. In my opinion you are not qualifies to speak on the matter.

Ann,
I don't understand how you feel that you are an expert on this country after one short visit. To quote:
"it seems to me that you have fallen into the same trap as the people i met in SA who seem to think that SA has a monopoly on horrible crimes. it doesn't.

there is no point in our trying to cap each other in the villany department. my point is that every "developed" nation has these sorts of problems to greater or lesser degree. Given the gross and obvious disparity between rich and poor in SA, it is hardly surprising that you have this problem"
Those people in SA that you reference have a far better understanding of the reality of this country and the terrible situation the ANC has got this country in to.

Selwyn,
I don't think that i addressed you directly regarding permits etc.
What qualifies me is my concern. I still have a right to my opinions. Can you please for once stop being defensive about everything and take some advice. You are not the only person in this industry. You are part of a team.

Ah, Suze Orman! I remember the Parade Magazine article where she related how her father refused to give an armed robber his money. Suze said "That was the day I realized money was more important than life". I haven't paid any attention to what she says since I read that.

well, I may not be an expert on SA [and never claimed to be] but the point I made, which is still valid, is that many South africans we met [and some who contribute to this board] seem to think that the level and seriousness of crime that they face is unique.

in this they appear to me to be mistaken.

Whilst such people seem unable to see that there may be another wider world view, there seems to me to be no point in trying to engage in a civilised and reasoned discussion on this subject. so i won't be contributing to this thread any more.

regards, ann