How Low can Wilderness Safaris Get?
Mar 28th, 2008, 06:40 AM
#41
Guest
Posts: n/a
Afterall,
Whilst I do not deny your ability to criticise my holiday arrangements,I fail to see what it has to do with this thread. I was merely responding to a question regarding my safari experience. Shumba is correct I live in SA, so we do see some of the other places as well. I certainly do not go to Joburg or Cape Town out of choice.
Jakester 379
So presumably you would not object if you were told that no airstrips were avaiable and that you could not go on holiday. It is a matter of common courtesy to allow others to use your airfield under the circumstances arising.
Jacksid
Better to have flawed opinions than none at all.Which guides do you consider to be less than useless that I have previously praised on this forum?
To think this started when I pointed out that Wilderness were mean to other camps and breached there bed limits, then all of the usual Wilderness apologists get on their high horses.
Whilst I do not deny your ability to criticise my holiday arrangements,I fail to see what it has to do with this thread. I was merely responding to a question regarding my safari experience. Shumba is correct I live in SA, so we do see some of the other places as well. I certainly do not go to Joburg or Cape Town out of choice.
Jakester 379
So presumably you would not object if you were told that no airstrips were avaiable and that you could not go on holiday. It is a matter of common courtesy to allow others to use your airfield under the circumstances arising.
Jacksid
Better to have flawed opinions than none at all.Which guides do you consider to be less than useless that I have previously praised on this forum?
To think this started when I pointed out that Wilderness were mean to other camps and breached there bed limits, then all of the usual Wilderness apologists get on their high horses.
Mar 28th, 2008, 07:15 AM
#42
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I did not realize your trip was cancelled snik. If that is the case Wilderness should have tried to work something out unless the demand (lots of flights) was too high. I was under the impression that your original landing strip was closed and you had to be rerouted, Wilderness refused the use of their airstrip, but another was found. If that was not the case, your inconvenience should not be blamed Wilderness "meanness" but on the weather.
Mar 28th, 2008, 07:17 AM
#43
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you reae through the postings, your ciriticms were solely aimed at Wilderness. When Johan suggested that all companies in Botswana were going the same route, that is when you made out that Kwando was problem free and not like this. So if you are going to continually bash one company and give a biased view, I think it only fair that your example is analysed like you choose to do othe operators.
As for Wilderness not mentioning the camps near Mostwiri on their website, they actually do. Though as it can not be booked by the general public, it is not listed as a main camp. They have many relationships like this with certain camps people will never have seen photos of. I will use the example of Vundumtiki Camp. Formerly used for OAT, it was never advertised a wilderness property becasue of its exclusive status. Why advertise a camp that you cannot book?
If you look under the mobile section on the wilderness website, you will find clear reference to camps wilderness claim not to not disclose
http://www.wilderness-safaris.com/sa...04#fragment-11
As for Wilderness not mentioning the camps near Mostwiri on their website, they actually do. Though as it can not be booked by the general public, it is not listed as a main camp. They have many relationships like this with certain camps people will never have seen photos of. I will use the example of Vundumtiki Camp. Formerly used for OAT, it was never advertised a wilderness property becasue of its exclusive status. Why advertise a camp that you cannot book?
If you look under the mobile section on the wilderness website, you will find clear reference to camps wilderness claim not to not disclose
http://www.wilderness-safaris.com/sa...04#fragment-11
Mar 28th, 2008, 07:23 AM
#44
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I guess that you also accept that Kwando has its faults just like those of wilderness you like to talk about. As for the community, I see you overlook Kwedi, the community receiving money from Jao for example.
For all Wilderness' critics, they have stopped hunting and buy up the quotas in their concessions except Abu which is an area they only manage. This is one conservation ethic not seen in Kwando's concessions.
For all Wilderness' critics, they have stopped hunting and buy up the quotas in their concessions except Abu which is an area they only manage. This is one conservation ethic not seen in Kwando's concessions.
Mar 28th, 2008, 07:35 AM
#45
Guest
Posts: n/a
Jakestar379
You have misunderstood my response, I did not go on holiday with Wilderness, I was merely trying to make the point that neighbours normally help one another out, or at least nice neighbours do.
Shumba
I did not book to go to Motswiri through Wilderness but LE, I was told I was going to an exclusive camp by them. They made no mention of these other camps used by other operators (that's if you believe that LE is not actually Wilderness in disguise). What you appear to condone is the existence of camps which are not apparently there because I cannot go to them, that is an interesting proposition and may explain why the breaches of concession bed limitations are allowed. So would you be happy to go to an exclusive concession only to discover that they had built a casino there but not told anybody other than the casino customers?
I do not care if WS have stopped hunting, I have no objection to sustainable hunting just the people who do it, after all if it had never existed there would be no game parks today.It is just a marketing ploy for those with no real knowledge of the situation.
By the way I have also been to Zimbabwe, hopefully you do not conclude from this that I support Mr. Mugabe!
You have misunderstood my response, I did not go on holiday with Wilderness, I was merely trying to make the point that neighbours normally help one another out, or at least nice neighbours do.
Shumba
I did not book to go to Motswiri through Wilderness but LE, I was told I was going to an exclusive camp by them. They made no mention of these other camps used by other operators (that's if you believe that LE is not actually Wilderness in disguise). What you appear to condone is the existence of camps which are not apparently there because I cannot go to them, that is an interesting proposition and may explain why the breaches of concession bed limitations are allowed. So would you be happy to go to an exclusive concession only to discover that they had built a casino there but not told anybody other than the casino customers?
I do not care if WS have stopped hunting, I have no objection to sustainable hunting just the people who do it, after all if it had never existed there would be no game parks today.It is just a marketing ploy for those with no real knowledge of the situation.
By the way I have also been to Zimbabwe, hopefully you do not conclude from this that I support Mr. Mugabe!
Mar 29th, 2008, 03:54 AM
#46
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stop acting like a child. You had a bad experience, haven't we all. I would take any of your knowledge of the hunting industry with a grain of salt. We both know that it is more to do with things such as the effects of the tstse fly on cattle that made many areas uninhabitable for the Batswana. This enabled wildlife to flourish alongside low population densities. If we left it to hunters, we would have seen the habitats widescale decimation like in SA. Was it not Kruger and such places that re-established Wildlfe populations in the country?
Yes, I think you are a Mugabe supporter (sarcasm if you wanted to play on this). This debate has been rational apart from your imput.
Yes, I think you are a Mugabe supporter (sarcasm if you wanted to play on this). This debate has been rational apart from your imput.
Mar 29th, 2008, 04:18 AM
#47
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey snik
What I said
“No, I will not mention names Snik as I do not want to bash guides in this thread.”
Because I knew you would ask and what do you still do…….
“Which guides do you consider to be less than useless that I have previously praised on this forum?”
This is sort of like dropping a piece of meat underneath a fridge and watching a dog exhaust itself trying to get unsuccessfully.
I would love to mention names but the fact is that not once ever have I specifically mentioned guides names, places, guest names etc as it is not right. So let me copy and paste again
“No, I will not mention names Snik as I do not want to bash guides in this thread.”
Do you get it now!
I was only telling you WHY I believe you have flawed opinions, just so you know. As you say, at least you have flawed opinions and that is true because if you did not and I did not and others did not what would the point be?
What I said
“No, I will not mention names Snik as I do not want to bash guides in this thread.”
Because I knew you would ask and what do you still do…….
“Which guides do you consider to be less than useless that I have previously praised on this forum?”
This is sort of like dropping a piece of meat underneath a fridge and watching a dog exhaust itself trying to get unsuccessfully.
I would love to mention names but the fact is that not once ever have I specifically mentioned guides names, places, guest names etc as it is not right. So let me copy and paste again
“No, I will not mention names Snik as I do not want to bash guides in this thread.”
Do you get it now!
I was only telling you WHY I believe you have flawed opinions, just so you know. As you say, at least you have flawed opinions and that is true because if you did not and I did not and others did not what would the point be?
Mar 29th, 2008, 09:55 AM
#49
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good, no problem.
Who are you? What is your name? If you do not mind I would just like to know. Since I have been around, in quite a few countries I would bet I have met you in the bush at some stage, maybe as a guide or manager. How long have you been going on safari? I obviously cannot say who I am as I am still in the industry so it is just to satisfy my curiosity.
Shumba
I am sure we would have met at some stage. I like your opinions. I would also like to know who you are etc. for my own curiosity.
My e mail address is [email protected]
I do have a couple of things I would like to say in private so please do contact me.
Cheers
Who are you? What is your name? If you do not mind I would just like to know. Since I have been around, in quite a few countries I would bet I have met you in the bush at some stage, maybe as a guide or manager. How long have you been going on safari? I obviously cannot say who I am as I am still in the industry so it is just to satisfy my curiosity.
Shumba
I am sure we would have met at some stage. I like your opinions. I would also like to know who you are etc. for my own curiosity.
My e mail address is [email protected]
I do have a couple of things I would like to say in private so please do contact me.
Cheers
Mar 31st, 2008, 07:53 AM
#53
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
jacksid,
Will be in touch soon, I am off to visit relatives in States for a month.
Sniktwak,
Yes, I am such an industry heavy weight. Considering I have not worked in the industry since late 2003! Do still have connections, ofcourse. I am more a consumer like yourself - just armed with a bit more knowledge.
This of course makes all my statements backed by someone who visits as frequently as Skimmer, incorrect!
Will be in touch soon, I am off to visit relatives in States for a month.
Sniktwak,
Yes, I am such an industry heavy weight. Considering I have not worked in the industry since late 2003! Do still have connections, ofcourse. I am more a consumer like yourself - just armed with a bit more knowledge.
This of course makes all my statements backed by someone who visits as frequently as Skimmer, incorrect!
Mar 31st, 2008, 08:17 AM
#54
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rizzuto,
I think you would find my name is Alex, which I have openly disclosed on previous threads. I didnt realise that I had to delcare it every time I posted. Just like you do not.
Kwando has issues, as a consumer would you not like to be informed of those. I could tell you problems inside other companies, like Wilderness, but Sniktawk does a good good of bashing them on his own, whilst calling Kwando a beacon in the storm. It is only fair and balanced to show both sides. I am not in the job of reporting companies for internal spats, where it does not affect you as the guest.
Ken, as for certain people not being on this forum. I have given far more accurate information than the drivel that you have produced. I am sharing inforamtion that affects peoples safaris. What i don't like, are people like you writing slander about companies and rules you have very little understanding of, but a clear hatred. Then to call somebody demented when they point out the truth of the situation and the problems at your own beacon in the storm.
There is a topic on what peeves you on safari. As a manager, guide or guest, it would probably be sharing a camp with someone like you.
I think you would find my name is Alex, which I have openly disclosed on previous threads. I didnt realise that I had to delcare it every time I posted. Just like you do not.
Kwando has issues, as a consumer would you not like to be informed of those. I could tell you problems inside other companies, like Wilderness, but Sniktawk does a good good of bashing them on his own, whilst calling Kwando a beacon in the storm. It is only fair and balanced to show both sides. I am not in the job of reporting companies for internal spats, where it does not affect you as the guest.
Ken, as for certain people not being on this forum. I have given far more accurate information than the drivel that you have produced. I am sharing inforamtion that affects peoples safaris. What i don't like, are people like you writing slander about companies and rules you have very little understanding of, but a clear hatred. Then to call somebody demented when they point out the truth of the situation and the problems at your own beacon in the storm.
There is a topic on what peeves you on safari. As a manager, guide or guest, it would probably be sharing a camp with someone like you.
Mar 31st, 2008, 08:57 AM
#55
Guest
Posts: n/a
Shumba,
Clearly you have become overexcited and as a result need to belittle the opinion of everybody else, in particular me. You are of course entitled to do this but not if you are basing it on rumour rather than fact.
The facts I have stated in this thread are correct and certainly not slanderous because they are written, they are also based on first-hand experience, not on gossip.
Which statements made by me in this thread are incorrect.
Le's start with the closure of the airstrip to non-WS customers, that is TRUE, I know it happened to me. I also would not wish to believe that the owner of LBC lied to me.
Next the question of bed limits being breached that is also TRUE, unless someone can let us know when the concession limits were changed.
The question of visits to the Wild Dog Den at Motswiri, I have yet to meet or hear from a person who was allowed to visit this. Yet I have heard independantly from two people one of whom you appear to trust implicity, that visits were undertaken by WS clients.
You casually misquote Skimmer ( a truly fine photographer)who states that "Lebala is one of my favorite camps in Botswana", I know he does not share my feelings about WS, but that does not stop us communicating regularly.
I do not care who I share a camp with as long as they do not interfere with my game viewing.
Clearly you have become overexcited and as a result need to belittle the opinion of everybody else, in particular me. You are of course entitled to do this but not if you are basing it on rumour rather than fact.
The facts I have stated in this thread are correct and certainly not slanderous because they are written, they are also based on first-hand experience, not on gossip.
Which statements made by me in this thread are incorrect.
Le's start with the closure of the airstrip to non-WS customers, that is TRUE, I know it happened to me. I also would not wish to believe that the owner of LBC lied to me.
Next the question of bed limits being breached that is also TRUE, unless someone can let us know when the concession limits were changed.
The question of visits to the Wild Dog Den at Motswiri, I have yet to meet or hear from a person who was allowed to visit this. Yet I have heard independantly from two people one of whom you appear to trust implicity, that visits were undertaken by WS clients.
You casually misquote Skimmer ( a truly fine photographer)who states that "Lebala is one of my favorite camps in Botswana", I know he does not share my feelings about WS, but that does not stop us communicating regularly.
I do not care who I share a camp with as long as they do not interfere with my game viewing.
Mar 31st, 2008, 09:32 AM
#56
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sniktawk,
Casually misquite Skimmer, I refer to his comment on the problems, he clearly knows what he is talking about. To quote him, some changes have not been for the best.
Whether it is one of his favourite is of little consequence. It appears friendships with staff is one reason for enjoying his stay along with game vieing. This still does not counter the point I am making. I have not criticized the game viewing or staff, just other aspects of the operation.
So who gave this information of breaking concession rules and on the conditions at Kwando? Until you have read the concession agreements, I would remain tight lipped, or just sounds like gossip.
You are taking the clear factual points, like closing of airstrips and the dogs and avoiding the adrressing the main point that you are trying to convince all. That you should avoid wilderness and just go to Kwando, becasue they have a better product.
I do not aim to belittle you, but just get tired and frustrated in your one sided, bias and incorrect information sharing. All fromn your first hand sources, well, so is mine.....................they just dont work there anymore, out of their own choice.
I have commended Lebala on its gameviewing, though tink the comapny problems and attitude are bringing the standard down, including staff morale. My overall point, was that it was overpriced for what you are getting. As to another statement that is incorrect, that Kwando is delivering the product it gained its name for. Are there not Kwando regulars who want to back you? I am off to shop here in JNB airport before my flight leaves.
Casually misquite Skimmer, I refer to his comment on the problems, he clearly knows what he is talking about. To quote him, some changes have not been for the best.
Whether it is one of his favourite is of little consequence. It appears friendships with staff is one reason for enjoying his stay along with game vieing. This still does not counter the point I am making. I have not criticized the game viewing or staff, just other aspects of the operation.
So who gave this information of breaking concession rules and on the conditions at Kwando? Until you have read the concession agreements, I would remain tight lipped, or just sounds like gossip.
You are taking the clear factual points, like closing of airstrips and the dogs and avoiding the adrressing the main point that you are trying to convince all. That you should avoid wilderness and just go to Kwando, becasue they have a better product.
I do not aim to belittle you, but just get tired and frustrated in your one sided, bias and incorrect information sharing. All fromn your first hand sources, well, so is mine.....................they just dont work there anymore, out of their own choice.
I have commended Lebala on its gameviewing, though tink the comapny problems and attitude are bringing the standard down, including staff morale. My overall point, was that it was overpriced for what you are getting. As to another statement that is incorrect, that Kwando is delivering the product it gained its name for. Are there not Kwando regulars who want to back you? I am off to shop here in JNB airport before my flight leaves.
Mar 31st, 2008, 10:36 AM
#57
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes rizutu people like me cannot twell our names. I do not even think I would have to explain that.
What do you mean not be on this forum Ken? you can come on and bash places and (in my opinion) speak absolute drivel but as a manager with experience as a guide I cannot add my thoughts??? Please wake up.
I will mention another issue which you mentioned long ago about food. You were speaking about not wanting quality food because of sightings etc. and how you hated to be 'rushed' back to the camp because of dinner time etc. I do not know what you have done in your life but business is business. I would agree with you in a perfect world, if I personally was on safari I do not care about food but rather the animals and viewing. On the other hand if everyone was the same no problem BUT this is not the case. On many occasions I have had poeples (spelling correct) tell me this but on departure they will write on their comment form that the meat was tough. Of coarse the meat was tough you bloody idiot because it was prepared for x time and I have no problem with you staying out longer but meat does tend to dry out over a period of time. We have to work on averages. 90% of people will complain and so therefore we have to be fairly strict with meal times. As i said in a perfect world who would care, including me but it is not a perfect world and once again I will mention the word business. Ignore my spelling wetc as I have typed this in about two minutes, in a bit of a rush now - yes, a late dinner with TOUGH meat!!
What do you mean not be on this forum Ken? you can come on and bash places and (in my opinion) speak absolute drivel but as a manager with experience as a guide I cannot add my thoughts??? Please wake up.
I will mention another issue which you mentioned long ago about food. You were speaking about not wanting quality food because of sightings etc. and how you hated to be 'rushed' back to the camp because of dinner time etc. I do not know what you have done in your life but business is business. I would agree with you in a perfect world, if I personally was on safari I do not care about food but rather the animals and viewing. On the other hand if everyone was the same no problem BUT this is not the case. On many occasions I have had poeples (spelling correct) tell me this but on departure they will write on their comment form that the meat was tough. Of coarse the meat was tough you bloody idiot because it was prepared for x time and I have no problem with you staying out longer but meat does tend to dry out over a period of time. We have to work on averages. 90% of people will complain and so therefore we have to be fairly strict with meal times. As i said in a perfect world who would care, including me but it is not a perfect world and once again I will mention the word business. Ignore my spelling wetc as I have typed this in about two minutes, in a bit of a rush now - yes, a late dinner with TOUGH meat!!
Mar 31st, 2008, 12:17 PM
#58
Guest
Posts: n/a
Several guides told me why to be back in camp at approximately the same time when other people do. (which Jackssid did).
Actually most of the times, I don't care because I am not that much into night photography and night drives at certain times of the year can be tricky (f.e. driving along the spillway with all those ellies around).
Only in very special occasions (lions and hyenas fiercely fighting over a kill), I'll stay out late and skip dinner or eat what there is left if it's fine with the guide.
I am not going to make any more comments on WS or Kwando or any other company cause I made clear what my thoughts on this are.
It wouldn't make sense to go into specific details either because it won't be very helpful for most people going on safari to have that knowledge.
Greetz,
Johan
Actually most of the times, I don't care because I am not that much into night photography and night drives at certain times of the year can be tricky (f.e. driving along the spillway with all those ellies around).
Only in very special occasions (lions and hyenas fiercely fighting over a kill), I'll stay out late and skip dinner or eat what there is left if it's fine with the guide.
I am not going to make any more comments on WS or Kwando or any other company cause I made clear what my thoughts on this are.
It wouldn't make sense to go into specific details either because it won't be very helpful for most people going on safari to have that knowledge.
Greetz,
Johan
Mar 31st, 2008, 06:37 PM
#59
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,528
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE Night drives - i will stay out only if there is something interesting. For example, last time we stayed with the Lions at Letchwe island when they killed a warthog and the entire pride was feasting on it.
Normally, i stay out longer in the day time - so, i give Spencer and Co a bit of a break by heading back just around sunset. Don't usually drive around with the spotlights, as the drive back from Twin Pools to camp is bound to provide you Serval sightings and i don't even take pictures at night anyways.
RE this thread - i agree with Johan that this thread ought to be closed down.
Normally, i stay out longer in the day time - so, i give Spencer and Co a bit of a break by heading back just around sunset. Don't usually drive around with the spotlights, as the drive back from Twin Pools to camp is bound to provide you Serval sightings and i don't even take pictures at night anyways.
RE this thread - i agree with Johan that this thread ought to be closed down.
