How big a deal staying at a camp in Botswana where night drives and walks are not allowed?
Oct 8th, 2006, 02:39 PM
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How big a deal staying at a camp in Botswana where night drives and walks are not allowed?
Hi,
I have posted a separate thread on favorite camps, but the issue of no night and walking safaris seems important enough to create a separate posting.
Based on feedback, I will probably lock in Kwetsani and Chitabe camps for 3 nights each for next June. The 3rd camp choice (Chobe area) is between Savute Elephant Camp (Orient Express - - gets great reviews in Conde nast and elsewher, but is NOT allowed to have night drives or walks because of its location in Chobe National Park)), Savuti (which would be my first choice, if it is available) and Chobe Chilwero (which seems to be a great lodge physically, though I have read some negative postings re: wildlife excursions).
My question: how big a negative would it be to stay 3 nights at Savute Elephant Camp where night and walking safaris are not allowed (especially since the other two camps I am selecting do not have these limitations?
Thanks so much for addressing this specific issue.
John H
I have posted a separate thread on favorite camps, but the issue of no night and walking safaris seems important enough to create a separate posting.
Based on feedback, I will probably lock in Kwetsani and Chitabe camps for 3 nights each for next June. The 3rd camp choice (Chobe area) is between Savute Elephant Camp (Orient Express - - gets great reviews in Conde nast and elsewher, but is NOT allowed to have night drives or walks because of its location in Chobe National Park)), Savuti (which would be my first choice, if it is available) and Chobe Chilwero (which seems to be a great lodge physically, though I have read some negative postings re: wildlife excursions).
My question: how big a negative would it be to stay 3 nights at Savute Elephant Camp where night and walking safaris are not allowed (especially since the other two camps I am selecting do not have these limitations?
Thanks so much for addressing this specific issue.
John H
Oct 8th, 2006, 02:50 PM
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Hi John, I'll be staying at the Orient Express properties in Feb 07, but I'm grappling with the same dilemma in terms of no off-road or night drives.
I'm locked in because I got a super fantastic deal on a travel auction, and I've been told that since this is my first safari, I would have a wonderful time regardless. The other option I might consider is to add 1 or 2 nights at Mombo, which gets rave reviews from everyone.
I'm sure other fodorites who have been to all the camps can give you better advice.
I'm locked in because I got a super fantastic deal on a travel auction, and I've been told that since this is my first safari, I would have a wonderful time regardless. The other option I might consider is to add 1 or 2 nights at Mombo, which gets rave reviews from everyone.
I'm sure other fodorites who have been to all the camps can give you better advice.
Oct 8th, 2006, 05:05 PM
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John H,
No walking or night driving should be ok....you are probably walking at the other camps, anyways. Night drives, you wont see the nocturnal animals or you wont be able to follow animals that are active towards dusk. However, the length of your drives would probably still be long enough. They probably start earlier and finish at sunset.
Rankings in Conde Naste' magazine etc etc., i dont think i would personally place much emphasis on that while planning my own safari....
Hari
No walking or night driving should be ok....you are probably walking at the other camps, anyways. Night drives, you wont see the nocturnal animals or you wont be able to follow animals that are active towards dusk. However, the length of your drives would probably still be long enough. They probably start earlier and finish at sunset.
Rankings in Conde Naste' magazine etc etc., i dont think i would personally place much emphasis on that while planning my own safari....
Hari
Oct 8th, 2006, 05:08 PM
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How big a deal? Depends on not only personal likes but also where you go. I prefer places where off-roading, night-driving and walking are par for the course. Off-roading is the most important for me. My first couple of safaris were to places where night drives were not allowed everywhere we went, but the experience was so good it didn't matter back then. I've travelled with an agent who has been to Africa many times and couldn't care less about night drives. I guess that's understandable if you've had the luxury of going to Africa two or three times a year.
John
John
Oct 8th, 2006, 05:22 PM
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Hi John,
To me off-roading is a huge issue, as I was in Botswana in July of this year, and this was never mentioned and it made a huge difference to be gameviewing from the road and not being able to get closer. I think that cat sightings were the exception. I also feel that night drives are important, expecially for those animals and owls etc that you would probably not see during the day. Walking I never do anyhow, so that is of no importance to me.
Getting the hours of gameviewing in during the daylight hours can be an issue, as even in July the days were generally very warm, especially sitting in the back of a vehicle. I am planning going to South Africa 3 times next year, and I would not consider going to a place with no night drives or no off-roading as the gameviewing is why I go, and not being out for every available minute would be disappointing to say the least.
I was at Chobe Chilwero in Sept 2001 and I enjoyed the camp and the gamedrives, especially the water gamedrives, as you see heaps of wildlife from the water. I would concede the land gamedrives were a bit more limited in what you saw, but overall I was happy with the gameviewing and as you say, the location overlooking the waterways is magnificent, seeing those huge herds converging towards the water - a sight you would never get tired of!
Kind regards,
Kaye
To me off-roading is a huge issue, as I was in Botswana in July of this year, and this was never mentioned and it made a huge difference to be gameviewing from the road and not being able to get closer. I think that cat sightings were the exception. I also feel that night drives are important, expecially for those animals and owls etc that you would probably not see during the day. Walking I never do anyhow, so that is of no importance to me.
Getting the hours of gameviewing in during the daylight hours can be an issue, as even in July the days were generally very warm, especially sitting in the back of a vehicle. I am planning going to South Africa 3 times next year, and I would not consider going to a place with no night drives or no off-roading as the gameviewing is why I go, and not being out for every available minute would be disappointing to say the least.
I was at Chobe Chilwero in Sept 2001 and I enjoyed the camp and the gamedrives, especially the water gamedrives, as you see heaps of wildlife from the water. I would concede the land gamedrives were a bit more limited in what you saw, but overall I was happy with the gameviewing and as you say, the location overlooking the waterways is magnificent, seeing those huge herds converging towards the water - a sight you would never get tired of!
Kind regards,
Kaye
Oct 8th, 2006, 05:35 PM
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To help with availability you could do the order of camps like this:
Chitabe, Kwetsani, Chobe area (Savuti)
or
Chobe area (Savuti), Kwetsani, Chitabe
That way there are two sets of possible openings for 3 consecutive nights.
If Savuti Camp (Wilderness) does not work, you could stay at Duma Tau, which is in the same Linyanti reserve. You could also opt for Selinda Camp or Zibalianja, just next door in the Selinda reserve. All 3 of these would give a similar experience to Savuti and all offer night drives.
If you really wanted Savuti, you could ask to be waitlisted there and book either Zib, Selinda, or Duma Tau and if Savuti opened, then switch to it. Since all these camps are either Wilderness or marketed by Wilderness, that option should work.
To answer your original question. In game rich areas such as Botswana, I don't like to spend too much time walking because you likely miss out on close views of interesting sightings. With your itinerary one or two walks would be sufficient for me.
With 6 night drives under your belt I put the odds at 50/50 that you will consider another 3 to be a necessity. But I'd always prefer the option rather than have it denied.
Your agent's personal opinion of night drives is moot. It's what you want.
Africaanxious, You'll see plenty and will indeed have a wonderful first safari.
Chitabe, Kwetsani, Chobe area (Savuti)
or
Chobe area (Savuti), Kwetsani, Chitabe
That way there are two sets of possible openings for 3 consecutive nights.
If Savuti Camp (Wilderness) does not work, you could stay at Duma Tau, which is in the same Linyanti reserve. You could also opt for Selinda Camp or Zibalianja, just next door in the Selinda reserve. All 3 of these would give a similar experience to Savuti and all offer night drives.
If you really wanted Savuti, you could ask to be waitlisted there and book either Zib, Selinda, or Duma Tau and if Savuti opened, then switch to it. Since all these camps are either Wilderness or marketed by Wilderness, that option should work.
To answer your original question. In game rich areas such as Botswana, I don't like to spend too much time walking because you likely miss out on close views of interesting sightings. With your itinerary one or two walks would be sufficient for me.
With 6 night drives under your belt I put the odds at 50/50 that you will consider another 3 to be a necessity. But I'd always prefer the option rather than have it denied.
Your agent's personal opinion of night drives is moot. It's what you want.
Africaanxious, You'll see plenty and will indeed have a wonderful first safari.
Oct 8th, 2006, 06:03 PM
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i've enjoyed many night drives, you see more of the nocturnal animals which are fascinating to watch. saw my 1 and only lion kill on a night drive, saw a leopard and croc interaction on a night drive and a genet and jackal. they are my favorite and not just for the g & t's at sundowner time.
Oct 8th, 2006, 07:46 PM
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We were at an Orient Express camp, Khwai River Lodge in Sep 2005, four nights. During the day we drove into Moremi park but night drives not allowed in Moremi. Neither is going off road. And that is a really big deal for me. So at night, afternoon, sundowners, and a couple hours into dark we drove on the camp side of the river which is private property. The day drives into Moremi were rather ho hum. The afternoon/night drives were filled with elephant herds and hippos. Better drives than into Moremi. As for night drives in general (other camps), I really like them, you follow a lion pride out to hunt and that is very exciting.
FWIW, Khwai River Lodge is an excellent facility, very large comfortable "tents" and enclosed toilets. The food/meals were excellent. The guides very good, good English and friendly as was all of the staff. But four nights there were one too many.
About Savute, one of those camps is where the lions kill elephants. Some people can't handle that. Check it out if need be.
regards - tom
FWIW, Khwai River Lodge is an excellent facility, very large comfortable "tents" and enclosed toilets. The food/meals were excellent. The guides very good, good English and friendly as was all of the staff. But four nights there were one too many.
About Savute, one of those camps is where the lions kill elephants. Some people can't handle that. Check it out if need be.
regards - tom
Oct 9th, 2006, 12:59 AM
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John H,
"I've travelled with an agent who has been to Africa many times and couldn't care less about night drives. I guess that's understandable if you've had the luxury of going to Africa two or three times a year"- me.
Perhaps I should clarify. I did not book with this agent. He was merely a travelling companion. Although night drives (and off-roading and walking) are important to me, I understand his point of view. On his many trips, he has been to such excellent wildlife viewing areas that the night potential, while good and much to my liking, has often paled in comparison with the day viewing. That is why I said the 'deal' depends on both your personal likes and <b>where</b> you go. Unfortunately, some people ignore good advice and end up not going to the <b>'right where'</b>. If Savute Elephant Camp, which I've not been to, is the <b>'right where'</b>, the lack of night drives is no big deal. I worded my response that way because you wanted people to 'address the specific issue'...so far, I don't think anybody has.
John
"I've travelled with an agent who has been to Africa many times and couldn't care less about night drives. I guess that's understandable if you've had the luxury of going to Africa two or three times a year"- me.
Perhaps I should clarify. I did not book with this agent. He was merely a travelling companion. Although night drives (and off-roading and walking) are important to me, I understand his point of view. On his many trips, he has been to such excellent wildlife viewing areas that the night potential, while good and much to my liking, has often paled in comparison with the day viewing. That is why I said the 'deal' depends on both your personal likes and <b>where</b> you go. Unfortunately, some people ignore good advice and end up not going to the <b>'right where'</b>. If Savute Elephant Camp, which I've not been to, is the <b>'right where'</b>, the lack of night drives is no big deal. I worded my response that way because you wanted people to 'address the specific issue'...so far, I don't think anybody has.
John
Oct 9th, 2006, 03:20 AM
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Also let me add the weather factor. I would not miss night drives nearly as much in June/July (brrrrrrr) as I would in October/November where the temperatures should be much more tolerable at night (if not still downright warm).
Oct 9th, 2006, 04:07 AM
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I am not a fan of night drives, and for me it would make no difference if they were not available. While it's nice to see the nocturnal creatures (my favorite is probably the African wild cat, as they all seem indistinguishable from my housemate, Lola), there's something about using artificial lighting that to me doesn't fit in well. Also, the beauty of the landscape forms a big part of my enjoyment, and that of course is not evident at night.
Ability to go off-raod, however, is another thing altogether; that'd be extremely important to me.
Ability to go off-raod, however, is another thing altogether; that'd be extremely important to me.
Oct 9th, 2006, 05:49 AM
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Rocco has a point with the chilly winter weather, you throw in the wind chill and.......you could easily be skiing.
Let me throw in my 2cents.....I like my guide to be fully fresh for the next day ahead and i do understand that night drives may be part of his job...but, if there isnt much interesting happening around the time of sunset Example, cats getting ready for action etc etc., i'm more than willing to head home. So, there are days when i start the afternoon drive a bit early and forget the spotlights. Other times, i stick to the normal schedule and do a short night drive. Usually, (9 times out of 10) night drives are just a drive bk to camp from where ever you are with the spotlights on!!! Sometimes, you see stuff like African wildcat, genet. If very lucky, Porcupine, Leopard, Civet, Serval. More than average luck:Honey badger, Aardvark, Pangoline (i've never seen any of these three ever!!!)
Hari
Let me throw in my 2cents.....I like my guide to be fully fresh for the next day ahead and i do understand that night drives may be part of his job...but, if there isnt much interesting happening around the time of sunset Example, cats getting ready for action etc etc., i'm more than willing to head home. So, there are days when i start the afternoon drive a bit early and forget the spotlights. Other times, i stick to the normal schedule and do a short night drive. Usually, (9 times out of 10) night drives are just a drive bk to camp from where ever you are with the spotlights on!!! Sometimes, you see stuff like African wildcat, genet. If very lucky, Porcupine, Leopard, Civet, Serval. More than average luck:Honey badger, Aardvark, Pangoline (i've never seen any of these three ever!!!)
Hari
Oct 9th, 2006, 09:36 AM
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In my opinion you can not compare night drives to day drives. What you see is totally different. However the succes of a nightdrive really depends on the area (the more open the better).
I have been to places where nightdrives hardly produced any sightings and were disappointing eg Ongava in Namibia and I have had wonderful nightdrives in Botswana that have produced several Honey Gadgers, Caracal, Serval, Wild Dogs killing Steenbok, Lions killing Hyena, Hyena chasing Ostrich and many more. If I know I am in a good area I would never miss a nightdrive
Michael
I have been to places where nightdrives hardly produced any sightings and were disappointing eg Ongava in Namibia and I have had wonderful nightdrives in Botswana that have produced several Honey Gadgers, Caracal, Serval, Wild Dogs killing Steenbok, Lions killing Hyena, Hyena chasing Ostrich and many more. If I know I am in a good area I would never miss a nightdrive
Michael
Oct 9th, 2006, 10:51 AM
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I think "atravelynn" has the best suggestion - if Savuti (a great little camp!) isn't available, try Duma Tau or one of the other camps in the Linyanti area. I've heard good things about Savute Elephant and Chobe Chilwero, but have heard not so good thing about the Chobe National park - i.e. LOTS of vehicle traffic, more like the parks in Kenya. That's part of the reason I've chosen not to go there. Plus, Chobe Chilwero is a very fancy lodge. I like fancy lodges, but given my choice, I like the tented camps. They just feel ... wilder! Just stayed at King's Pool in the Linyanti area for the second time. It was great.
As for night drives versus no night drives - I'd prefer to have the option, but it's not the worst thing to not be able to do them. I've visited Mombo and Chief's Camp several times where they don't nigh drive because of park rules, and it's not really too bad. Also, neither of those camps are supposed to drive off road either, but I've learned that in many places that particular rule is ... bent - in other words, they stay on the roads as much as possible, but if there is a really cool sighting, they will go banging through the bush.
As for night drives versus no night drives - I'd prefer to have the option, but it's not the worst thing to not be able to do them. I've visited Mombo and Chief's Camp several times where they don't nigh drive because of park rules, and it's not really too bad. Also, neither of those camps are supposed to drive off road either, but I've learned that in many places that particular rule is ... bent - in other words, they stay on the roads as much as possible, but if there is a really cool sighting, they will go banging through the bush.
Oct 9th, 2006, 01:05 PM
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Thanks for the inputs, everyone -- very insightful and helpful. I will let you know how things turn out in terms of camp availability and final selection.
I am hoping that Savuti has some availability -- waiting to hear back to finalize. I guess that Chobe Chilwero and Savute Elephant camp are not bad fallbacks. I have a hold at Kings Pool right now for 3 nights, but not sure I can justify the extra expense ($1000+ per person), in spite of the rave reviews. We'll see.
Thanks again,
John H.
I am hoping that Savuti has some availability -- waiting to hear back to finalize. I guess that Chobe Chilwero and Savute Elephant camp are not bad fallbacks. I have a hold at Kings Pool right now for 3 nights, but not sure I can justify the extra expense ($1000+ per person), in spite of the rave reviews. We'll see.
Thanks again,
John H.
Oct 9th, 2006, 03:30 PM
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I would not miss a night game drive in either South Luangwa or the Sabi Sand...just too much going on after dark!
Too bad there are not night game drives in the Serengeti, at least not in the areas that I visited, although the off-roading in the Ndutu area allows for awesome cheetah and lion sightings, and I did even come across a beautiful leopard.
Too bad there are not night game drives in the Serengeti, at least not in the areas that I visited, although the off-roading in the Ndutu area allows for awesome cheetah and lion sightings, and I did even come across a beautiful leopard.
Oct 9th, 2006, 04:37 PM
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jh6000
This is just me being cynical. Your agent says: your 1st choice 5-paw camp may be booked, but we can put a hold on this 6-paw camp for an extra $1000 because there's plenty of room there. Now we could get you these other 2 camps (Chilwero or Elephant Camp) for about the same price as your first choice, but they lack the night drives/walks you want. But never fear, the 6-paw extra-thou camp has night drives and walks. You can still have it all if you pay the extra.
In that same concession as Savuti is Duma Tau at Savuti's price. Duma Tau, Savuti, and King's Pool all traverse the same area. Has your agent even tried Duma Tau? Or in Selinda, Zibalianja?? which I believe was less expensive than Savuti last year. Or Selinda (name of concession and camp), which is in line with the 5-paw camps?
There is a real crunch for space in these accommodations, but the alternatives you are being offered seem to push you into a more expensive property and ignore real solutions that don't cost more.
Just some thoughts.
This is just me being cynical. Your agent says: your 1st choice 5-paw camp may be booked, but we can put a hold on this 6-paw camp for an extra $1000 because there's plenty of room there. Now we could get you these other 2 camps (Chilwero or Elephant Camp) for about the same price as your first choice, but they lack the night drives/walks you want. But never fear, the 6-paw extra-thou camp has night drives and walks. You can still have it all if you pay the extra.
In that same concession as Savuti is Duma Tau at Savuti's price. Duma Tau, Savuti, and King's Pool all traverse the same area. Has your agent even tried Duma Tau? Or in Selinda, Zibalianja?? which I believe was less expensive than Savuti last year. Or Selinda (name of concession and camp), which is in line with the 5-paw camps?
There is a real crunch for space in these accommodations, but the alternatives you are being offered seem to push you into a more expensive property and ignore real solutions that don't cost more.
Just some thoughts.
Oct 9th, 2006, 05:24 PM
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John,
I share Lynn's cynicism. I didn't want to sound like a cracked record, so I avoided mentioning the other equally good alternatives to Savuti...Selinda, Zibalianja, Duma Tau etc. The first two offer walking as well as off-roading and night drives as a matter of routine. Any one of them would render your 'big deal' question irrelevant.
John
I share Lynn's cynicism. I didn't want to sound like a cracked record, so I avoided mentioning the other equally good alternatives to Savuti...Selinda, Zibalianja, Duma Tau etc. The first two offer walking as well as off-roading and night drives as a matter of routine. Any one of them would render your 'big deal' question irrelevant.
John
