KIBOKO

From the amount of activity on Trip Advisor and the posts it looks like the Europeans are going to Cape Town and other destinations in South Africa many of which are not safari related.
cj

atravelynn

After a more careful reading,

Ha ha Matnikstym on AIG
Tom, I'm sorry you had to cancel
Hari, good point on the wow factor
Temba, you make some good points about the current situation.

The dot com bubble burst, the housing bubble burst, now maybe the safari bubble.

bigcountry

So looks like a great last minute opp for Ndutu. I've never been, do u have to bring your own guide? Website has prices, what do those include? thanks

safarichuck

Most people bring their own guide but cars and guides are available for hire at the lodge.
Chuck

andybiggs

with the current downturn, I am secretly hoping that on game drives in the Serengeti I see fewer people. I hope that the SNP autorities realize that guests are happier when they see fewer vehicles, and open back up some of the paths that they closed 5 to 10 years ago. In other words, we need to be more spread out.

I will report back on what I see when I am in Tanzania in a few weeks. I will be there for 3 weeks, with most of my time being spent at private camp sites in the Serengeti.

sandi

bigcountry -

At Ndutu Ldg you can use their guides/vehicles, but might be sharing with other guests.

You have to consider how you get to Ndutu if not your own guide/vehicle. You can fly in/out of the Ndutu airstrip at a cost. With your own guide/vehicle, you can on the way visit Lake Manyara and the Ngorongoro Crater on the return to Arusha... this is how most visitors do it.

cary999

Good Andy, it will be most interesting to hear what you find there since you have years of background for comparison.

You also Bill H. Are you and the Mrs. going to Ndutu and surrounds again this year? If so, will be interesting to hear your comparison of this year with previous.

And there's someone else also going in Feb, Dana M, I think? Anyone else?

regards - tom

wildlifepainter

My husband and I will be in Ndutu in February. We've been waitlisted for the Lodge since last March and now we have 2 nights cleared (19 and 20) and are waiting and hoping that our 1st night clears too, Feb.18th. We're starting with 1 night in Arusha, 2 nights at Boundary Lodge in Tarangire, 2 nights at Sopa crater, 3 nights in Ndutu, 2 nights in Serengeti and then off to Pongwe for 7 nights. We booked a private tour for 2 with a stretch cruiser with Naipenda Safari. Last year we did nearly the same trip but did Arusha Park (had to contend with Bush's visit) and Lake Manyara instead of Tarrangire. We also added a day in Ndutu and added more time in Zanzibar. I've already started my preliminary packing yesterday now that the holiday rush is over. I can't wait!

Now 2010 is another topic. Because of the economy, Botswana is on hold until the prices come down or I get desperate and need my safari fix.

Bill_H

<b>You also Bill H. Are you and the Mrs. going to Ndutu and surrounds again this year?</b>

Tom, we have no plans to return to that area again. In just three years you could really see it deteriorate, with much larger crowds in 2008 compared to 2006 and 2007.

I think it's partly because the number of seasonal tented camps has almost doubled in that area. They are just adding them almost at random. I have a map from a few years ago that shows four Ndutu area campsites, often booked by small parties. Eben just showed a map with probably 15-20 campsites and most are jamming in 6 to 8 or even more tents per campsite, instead of 2 or 3 tents like earlier years. All about maximizing the $$.

Also they shut down off-roading in most of the adjacent Serengeti NP areas so now the people that would be in Serengeti viewing game on the plains are almost forced into the NCA to get quality game viewing, putting more pressure on the NCA area. I think they'll have to limit off-roading in the NCA soon if it keeps getting worse, which will pretty much kill it for serious photography.

The actions of guides from companies like Kibo, Warner Safaris and Leopard Safaris around the cheetahs last year also left a bad taste. A couple of times the Warner and Leopard guides kept the cheetah mom with 6 cubs from hunting by continually driving between her and the prey and it was pretty sickening. I have photos of the worst offending jeeps but I was told one of the Leopard Safari owners was a big-shot politician and if we complained about them he could make it difficult for us to enter (or leave) Tanzania.

Finally we didn't appreciate the asshole NCA Rangers trying to extort $1,400 from us last year for bogus 'photography permits'.

I'm glad we went when we did but I have no desire to return. The migration is really wonderful to see and we've had great wildlife sightings around Ndutu, but it's time for us to move on.

Bill

safarichuck

Bill, Like you we were disgusted with the behavior of the guides at Ndutu last year (February-March 2008). We had been there before and never seen anything like what we encountered in 2008. Three companies consistanly violated every ethic of decent behavior and threatened the cheetah moms in the most thoughtless way you could imagine. The three offending companies I witnessed and photographed were A&amp;K and vehicles from Swala and Kusini (both Sanctuary Camps). Although I have stayed at both of these cmaps in the past, I would never use Sanctuary again after witnessing there behavior. I should add that when I have stayed at these camps I did so with my own guide so I have no opportunity to interact with their camp guides. When I gestered to the A&amp;K guide and the Swala guide that they were messing up the cheetah's opportunity, they just smiled stupidly and looked away. I photographed the vehicles but I don't think anyone in Tanzania really cares. Evidently A&amp;K is in bed with the govenment and has ties to Sanctuary as well. We did use Kibo and it was a guide we had used previously and he was entirely professional. While I would not ever use Kibo again or that that particular guide again, it is not becuase of his behavior in the Serengeti. Kibo Guides has become too much of a mass tour company and has become so comfortable with thier OAT arrangement that they no longer take the care they used to in training and managing their guides. I could go on but will spare you. One thing to keep in mind is that last year (2008) was somewhat unusual as the Kenya crowd was alloed to safari in the Tanzanian Serengeti and that they were allowed to use their own vehicles. This placed enormous pressure on the entire area. Certainly Tanzania saw this as an opportunity to increase income. What is hard to forgive is that the most sever indiscretions were by the Tanzanian Tour Companies (A&amp;K in particular). I would also suggest that the prople who ue A&amp;K are most likely first time visitors and no the sort who usualy return. I watched while a driver/guide was bribed to remain at a sighting after dark ($100 US). Our guide was somewaht upset but afraid to report the incident. For the time being, and unless Tanzania can get its act together, we are doing Botswana, South Africa, and perhaps Rwanda regularly. I just feel terrible that the Serengeti ecosystem is being destroyed. I thought they new better.
Chuck

safarichuck

My apologies for typos in the above but it is time for dinner and so have no time to edit.
Cheers-Chuck

divine54

&quot;I have photos of the worst offending jeeps but I was told one of the Leopard Safari owners was a big-shot politician and if we complained about them he could make it difficult for us to enter (or leave) Tanzania.&quot;

as a wildlife enthusiast and an animal rights activist i cannot belief what i am reading here.

i would rather risk being on a red list than not addressing it to the right/wrong people. even or despite it's a big name!
i would have published it in safari/africa magazins as african safari or africa geographic and even national geographic.

for the animal's sake we have to act and looking away for selfish reasons is something which is done by TOO many people today!

animals have onla one lobby - and that is US!

div!

div

luangwablondes

With the above complaints, and the fees to enter the parks in the Northern Circuit, I can't imagine why anyone would go on safari there. Having been several times, it just doesn't have the feel for Real Africa as it once had when I was first there in '87. I have given up on returning there.

I have always had the suspicion that many people on the forum were over selling parts of East Africa.

andybiggs

I think the trick in any place that gets over loved is to move to areas where there are fewer people. The Serengeti is a HUGE ecosystem, and there are many many great areas with few travelers. It is the low hanging fruit of the central part and southern part of the Serengeti where you will find the safari companies doing the same old thing. Not that it is a bad place to do business, but they aren't exactly taking many risks for their customers. When I say risks I mean going to places with a little less concentration of game and where good guiding is needed to differentiate yourself. No need for me to mention the companies that I am thinking of.

I love working around the edges, finding things that are private experiences. I absolutely love Tanzania, and I don't want to feel like it's sour grapes for me, when it isn't. I just think it is human nature for one to remember times past when we felt like we had a place all to ourselves.

cary999

Yikes! Maybe I was &quot;lucky&quot; I canceled planned safari for Feb around Ndutu! Doing that hasn't really bothered me, everything else is good and our safari in South Africa (for Sep) is still a go.

regards - tom

luangwablondes

When I go to the Zoo, I know I will be sharing the experience with hundreds of people. When I travel to Africa, I really don't expect to share the experience with a lot of tourists, let alone have quite a few in my photos, and not by choice.

If going to where there is less people in the serengeti means I must go where there is less wildlife, it defeats the purpose of going to this unique ecosystem. Why not just go to someplace it is not an issue?

And yes, I have returned many times, and each experience was 'less' then the prior one. All due to the crunch of tourists. I have given it a fair chance and went on safari to far better places, with more experienced and qualifed guiding as a plus, nowhere near the number of tourists, in what could be called remote Africa.

The kicker was being able to bush walk with the wildlife was offered at most of these places, which is not the norm in the Northern circuit.

Temba

lunagwablondes-Would you be willing to share the remote destinations with the rest of us on Fodors? Is it Tanzania or are you referring to Zambia, or do you just avoid the northern circuit? It is just this sort of information that makes Fodors so useful.
Ted

Kavey

Random thoughts:

I agree that prices have risen astronomically in the last few years. But, at the end of the day, it's all about supply and demand. If the market can bear it, then it's hardly a surprise that camp owners will charge what they can. They are, after all, businesses.

Now that demand is falling and falling hard, I would imagine that most camps will need to drop their prices by quite a large percentage.

Those that survive will no doubt be those that, when prices were at their highest, were operating at huge margins, but whose costs will still be covered within a lower pricing model.

Those that jumped onto the bandwagon and created cost/ pricing models based on the highest prices will no doubt struggle.

I too have heard various rumours (from friends who live in Kenya) about certain camp owners actually wanting to sell their camps but being unable to find purchasers. I won't repeat camp/ owner names since this is simply hearsay.

It will be interesting to see what is left once the dust settles.

HariS

Kavey,

Is that because the Kenyan tourism took a hit after the election issues? or something to do with the current economic downturn? i.e., the camp operators in Kenya wanting to close shop?

Kavey

Hari, I don't know. Certainly the main one that I'd heard of that my friend mentioned, he said the owner had been wanting to sell for several months. Of course, that means it could either be since the January trouble or it could be previous to/ unrelated to that.