lbj2 - Now I too understand a few things I didn't before. But that's not a bad thing. And it certainly isn't a character assasination. In fact, quite the opposite.

I am also sure that should we ever spend some hours around the same "bush TV", we would find more common ground than points to disagree on. But I also believe that that discussion could be a very interesting and energetic one. LOL!

http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-li...?ref=ts&v=wall
Join up everyone.
Merry Christmas.

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?to...3818#post62209
And online petition for you all to sign on to.

Bushkid,

The character defamation was in regard to Sv, who tries to question your credibility by making unfounded,snide comments about facebook pages.

I have no issue with good debate, like with you.

Though there really is no need for a German travel agent to trawl through someones facebook page.

Ciao.

Returning to a question that might have been answered above, and if so, just copy and paste that answer and sorry I missed it.

<b>How do you define canned hunting?</b> In my mind the animal has little chance of evasion or escape. The enclosure is small enough that it acts as a crutch for the hunter, who can be nearly guaranteed a kill. Or animals are baited and routinely feed in a certain area only to be popped off one day when they arrive for dinner.

This is more like harvesting a crop or slaughtering livestock than a hunt. In fact I've seen pictures of a tethered lion being shot. Truly sick!

If a private reserve is so huge that it covers an area equal to what a hunter would normally traverse in pursuit of prey, then that is different. That's just hunting on private land.

The scenario of treeing a caracal with dogs and then ringing the client to leisurely rise out of bed and pull the trigger is "canned" in my book as well.

I personally have hunted only with a camera or binoculars and unless you eat all of what you kill, the whole process seems way too egotistical.

Hi ljb2,

I fully agree that trawling through someone's facebook pages is unacceptable behaviour, and I'm sure most forum members would distance themselves from such actions.

I was a little intrigued as to how and why you appeared to have such an intimate and fairly unusual knowledge of the industry, and obviously felt strongly enough to contribute to the forum. Because I now understand your background in the safari industry a bit better, it gives me greater understanding of your insights and perspectives (and that's an observation only).

I also enjoy good debate. Should we ever meet, I think we'd share more common ground than bones of contention.

OK, (assuming you are) boys, now that I have apparent confirmation that this is very much an insider's conversation, my question still stands:
How do ordinary folks like myself obtain true and verifiable information about where hunting exists and what kind so that we may make wiser safari choices?

And why do I sometimes get the feeling these days that half the people on this forum are not just plain regular folk (i.e., not in the travel industry)?
Sigh...

I'm not in the safari industry.And neither in the travel industry either.
But we have travelled on tour in Southern Africa.And on volunteer animal conservation projects twice in Namibia.And on a private 17 day safari with Bushkid, whom I respect to be a very ethical operator.So, if you want safari's that have nothing to do with hunting, but a lot to do with conservation, photograpy, or adventure, then seek his advice.
I suspect from the little I know of Ibj2, he's right up there with Bushkid also.

Tactile, I am afraid I only spent a too short a time in the inudstry before returning to the UK.

Though I do try to safari at least twice a year.

Russel
I just followed the link you published on Fodors which ended at your openly published FB output:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gi...5954021&ref=ts
No "trawling" necessary! What are you blaming me for?

Second: I am certainly not a TA!

LAleslie
You can - as written earlier - only request your Tour Operator to check the venue in view to trophy hunting or ask yourself via direct contact.
OR you contact Chris Mercer at http://www.cannedlion.org/. Chris knows the bad guys.

SV

Russell
Here is the Fodors thread where you published your FB link:

http://www.fodors.com/community/afri...do-safaris.cfm

I hope you have got the guts to apology!!

SV

LAleslie and others who are serious and honest about hunting/canned hunting

And interesting read:

http://www.safaritalk.net/lofiversio....php/t429.html

SV

LAleslie,

One easy way is to get a safari map of the destination you are travelling to, for example, Botswana.

Try to find one that contains both National parks and Game Management areas, if it is in unfenced country. Each area will have a name or a code assigned to it.

A quick google search will easily reveal if there is a photo camp in the area (Game mananagement area). If there is not, the chances of it being a hunting zone are high.

Then search the same area with the word hunt, it can be quite revealing.

SV,

Apologies for what?

Your language was clearly trying to infer that I somehow involved in hunting.

Or is this another person that needs to be shown I do work for Kwando. Why don't you ask 'Safari_craig' about what happened after he made similar accusations.

sorry, do not work for KWando

lbj2

When you publish a link to a site which clearly shows a "reservation" email for KWANDO which allows trophy hunting in its concessions you shouldn't blame others for drawing conclusions..

Your accusation I am a travel agent is beyond any correctness and trying to defame me for misleading others.

SV

Thanks lbj2, I'll try that map search. I'm going to Southern Tanzania (Selous, Katavi and Ruaha) in Aug./Sept. nad I've got the idea that there's lots of hunting around those parts.

Thanks also to you SV. I just thought the cannedlion link was probably anti-hunting invective without practical help. I'll take a look.

Peace, guys.

I would reiterate LAleslies last words "Peace, guys". This forum is not intended as a sparring ground for personal attack, and I think that we've deviated from the intent and spirit.

LAleslie - this should definitely not have become an insiders conversation. And I, too find it quite disheartening when forums like this are parasitised by travel operatives trawling for business (this is a general comment - not specific to this thread).

However, many folk in the travel industry have incredible and valuable insights into the industry, and provide exceptionally good information to travelers with genuine questions.

Tactile and I met on another forum a long while back, when we were both committed to resolving some issues and allaying some myths and misconceptions about a particular tourism product. I happened to be a tour leader, and tactile was a future guest (at that time). Together, and with the help of others, we contributed to solving a heap of problems, and tactile and his wife subsequently visited South Africa and Namibia (but I had left the company by then). We only met personally a long while later, when they travelled with me for a short while. We don't always agree, but we have a mutual respect and a genuine friendship that allows us to discuss our perspectives without acrimony. Hence the use of the word "Indaba" - meaning "discussion".

(It's only when tactile mentions the word elephant, camo trousers, or light-coloured safari clothing, that he's treading on hallowed ground. LOL!)

Canned lion hunting is a subject clearly close to the hearts of everybody on this thread, and I think a lot of valuable information and insights have been shared. I don't think there are any "lovers of the hunt" that have aired their views here. We all seem to share a common general perspective that canned hunting is an unethical practice, although individuals have their own specific views, which don't necessarily make them wrong.

Lets make the most of the information we have to make honest and ethical safari choices, within our own frames of reference.

Someone talking about me...I have been entertaining the Fodorites over here-http://www.fodors.com/community/fodorite-lounge/americans-may-be-among-first-climate-refugees.cfm#last-comment