"Yet the declines have not been as great in areas that have hunting in the human wildife buffer zones and give animals an economic value."

That the most hilarious argument which comes up always in order to support the hunting industry.

Whether this studies are done by "reputable" figures which belong to a government body or not - it's simply untrue and the conclusions is wrong.

One - only one! - example for the contradiction:

Botswana has always supported trophy hunting on lions until 2007. Then the government realised that the number of lions is dramatically decreasing due to the "harvesting" of the cats. So Botswana stopped issuing licenses.

So please stop bringing up the same ols arguments over and over again. They don't become true just by repeating.

The whole arguments which come from hunting related bodies, individuals or self-declared "conservationists by killing" are sickeing.

SV

All of those who are opposed to trophy hunting and canned hunting should join the following page - there will be more to come:

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/p...9363818?ref=mf

It's high time to spread the word and get people aware particularly prior to the FIFA Worldcup.

People MUST know what's going on in Africa and SA in particular in order to be able to make a decent choice.

SV

Hold on one second!!!

I'm only about a third of the way down the thread, but please, can we distinguish between canned hunting (which is disgusting) and real hunters that does not hunt just for the trophy?? Their's a big difference and I hate it when I,as a hunter, gets brushed over the same comb as a canned lion killer. If it can't fit in my fridge, then there is no use harvesting the animal. That is my philosophy. We spend many many hours in the wilderness (without trucks and four wheelers and no, I refuse to sit in an animal hide luring in unsuspecting bambi) and it is not a simple task. Please don't assume all hunters approve of canned hunting!!

lbj2, I have to agree with you. Many people on this forum forget that the animals they are seeing were bought and transported to the reserve which is fenced in. I have family in the business and a lot of culling goes on behind the scenes.

A game reserve is not a natural setting, it's heavily managed. There is no more untamed wilderness in South Africa.

http://www.cannedlion.org/
Watch the video.
http://www.cannedlion.org/content/ju...h-2009-not-end

Canned animal hunting is appalling.Bow hunters need to feel themselves, the slow agonising death they cause.This is canned hunting at it's worst.And a side to the industry that is hardly publicised.

However, we should not lump all hunters together.Canned, where an animal is prevented by enclosures from escaping a hunter, is quite different from free or wild hunting.Although there's a lot of 'hunters' given the opportunity will indulge in either.
Free hunting or wild hunting has far more to justify it, than canned ever could have.Even in my country, free hunting of imported game, has a measured conservation effect.As thar,deer, wild pig, opossums, etc, all introduced, have no natural predators and strip our environment bare.Hunting is a neccessary control.
But canned, where lions are bred for death by a 'hunter's' gun, long or crossbow is totally unjustifiable.
As for the revenue it creates,can we really use that argument?Many criminal activities could also be justified , if it all boiled down to "the revenue it creates".
Camera hunting could replace that revenue.
In Namibia,reserve, or enclosed lions cannot be bred.The males at the wildlife sanctuary we spent time at, were castrated.But those 5 lions will live out their lives in huge enclosures.Orphans at birth,now human habituated, the sanctuary shows true concern for that wildlife by taking on the task, at heavy cost, providing them a place to roam and live out their lives in dignity.

"Free hunting or wild hunting has far more to justify it, than canned ever could have.Even in my country, free hunting of imported game, has a measured conservation effect.As thar,deer, wild pig, opossums, etc, all introduced, have no natural predators and strip our environment bare.Hunting is a neccessary control"

****

You are stating that these animals are broad in by humans. HUMAN INTERFERENCES with nature causing the problem.

Now you bring the same argument to interfere again?

You cannot be serious!

Your argument following means in the end - going to India and kill the surplus of people?

We ase all ANIMALS! The simple reason we walk on foot gives us the right to decide who/which is SURPLUS!?

Stop it! NOW and forever!

It's SICK!

SV

PS

One exception: The San people or other native trivbes used to hunt for thousands of years without disturbing nature. These peoplöe MUST have the right to live their klives as their forefathers did. NO ONE ELSE has got the right to judge who/which is SURPLUS!

Anybody else is a KILLER and destroys our all heritage!

UNDERSTAND - NOW! STOP IT!

SV

Lynnak-

Unfortunately I can't justify any hunting and I do lump them all together. We created the problems of overpopulations of elk and deer here in the US and when we reintroduced the wolves to the northern rockies and improve the environment for all of us the hunters again exterminate them. I know too many hunters who don't chase to the ends of the earth an animal that they injure. It's sick. That's why your argument of "responsible hunting" will always fall on deaf ears where I am concerned. Hate to harp on the wolves, but they are the equivalent of Africa's lions (our top predator, except for us).

Hunters also kill the biggest and most beautiful specimens. This has watered down the gene pool and the offspring from the lesser specimens are weaker and not as fit to survive. We have done too much damage to evolution through hunting for sport. Please see this: http://www.newsweek.com/id/177709

lbj2-

You said - "There is far too much talk of 'Greedy hunters' etc. I would like some of you to go on safari to these areas. Would you really pay $1000 a night to walk and be driven around Mopane woodland? I don't think so."

I have and will again. I think there are a lot of us.


Everyone-

Everyone is making great points here. Imagine being the politicians who have to make the rules. I don't know the answers - the canned industry as I stated earlier will only grow. It is just human nature to want to destroy everything in any way they can (not all of us - you know the point I am trying to make). I invest a lot of money every year donating to groups that hire rangers to protect wildlife all over the planet, and trying to educate the local populations. There have been some positive results, and some that don't work out so well. My point being that we must educate and give financial reasons to the local populations in order to stop the abhorrent behavior of foreigners who create the problem. The locals are just "giving the public what they want" and making a better living (or making a fortune) off the misery of wildlife that we hold dear. To them, the animals become a commodity and not something to cherish. Unfortunately it's all about the money.

christa
I FULLY agree!

And it's the locals who have to explain to their children and grandchilren why they did allow foreigners to destroy their heritage.

But it's ours as well!

Therefore we have to fight as long as these awesome creatures exist!

Join us!

SV

Christabir,

Perhaps I should have made myself slightly more clear.

We are not talking of the Mopane Woodlands that guests track through trying to follow dogs or some lions, close to the Savuti channel or not far off the main game paths.

I am referring to that massive belt of mopane, you see between the okavango and Linyanti, for example. Where water is so sparse you would be lucky to find a pan with water in it.

When the hunting season starts, most the wildlife in Botswana has migrated back to the permanent water sources, away from these hunting areas.

Not wanting to belittle you, having read your trip reports etc, have not really experienced a true mopane experience. The are no afternoon drives to floodplains, lagoons or watching wild life from camp. Seeing an impala an antelope of any description is quite a rarity, let alone a predator.

Spasvogel you're getting ridiculous.
Quote-Now you bring the same argument to interfere again?
What?First time we've spoken mate.!
There are legitimate justifications for hunting, depending on the circumstances, or the country, or the particular animal that is breeding, without it's natural predator controls.Whether humans have introduced them or not, is no longer of importance.But controlling them now, to save our environment from further damage is.And free hunting is one valuable management tool.Like it or not.
If you're going to have a debate on canned lion hunting, stick to the pointCanned hunting is quite different from wild hunting.Canned hunting has no justification apart from dipstiks putting on their cam gear, and paying plenty to kill a lion that can't get away from you.And if you miss, you have backup.
But to start going on about hunting as a whole, without differentiating, then you may as well argue we should all be vegetarians.And that's not going to happen.
So get back to canned lion hunting.
Meantime, this Christmas we'll be out in our boat, hunting fish.Same isn't it?
Have a great Christmas, and gee that farmed ham is yummy!

SV, or should I say Imra.

If you actually read through what I am saying, I think you find I fall in the middle of you and the hunting lobby. I support its use on the periphery and adjacent communal lands, though not in prime photographic areas.

I see you have an issue with being presented with evidence that you do not agree with. I was completely anti-hunting at one point, though having worked on a fenced reserve and near Game Management Areas, I understand its need.

Clive Walker mentioned back in 2003, that it costs more to capture and transport an Elephant, than you could sell it for at auction.

As for hunting on the periphery, to quote you on giving animals living near communities an economic value;

"That the most hilarious argument which comes up always in order to support the hunting industry."

Perhaps you would diagree with this report created written about the Campfire Project in Zimbabwe, which does exactly that for wildlife,

Just to avoid any confusion, this was written for Department for International Development (DFID) who are a department of the UK government.

http://www.globaleye.org.uk/archive/.../mars_pt1.html

I would also suggests that you get your own statements correct before criticising anyones research papers. You would find that Botswana has not hunted Lions for 7 out of the last 9 hunting seasons. As there was also a moratorium in place between 2001-2005.

I am more than happy to be persuaded by alternatives. Though short of delivering one, you would like to see the destruction of rural economies in Africa just to appease you dislike of hunting?

So rather than just attack, provide informations and convince, your belligerent stance with solutions does the anti-hunting lobby little favours.

What would your solution be to the massive declines in the Massai Mara? (Or are the WWF figures incorrect?)

How would you replace the revenues in areas that cannont generate similar sums through photographic safaris?

I do not like the idea of of animals being killed and could not do it myself, though we all manipulate the commodities around us, whether tangible or not to make a comfortable living for ourselves.

The irony is not lost on me on how we have destroyed a lot of the developed world's remote environment, in persuit of wealth, which we use to visit unspoiled areas in developing countries,flash our money and electronics about. Then tell them they can't put their cattle on the most fertile grounds to develop the type of economy we have.

So they turn to a mixture of photographic and hunting safaris to maximize their incomes, protecting these wild areas and they get criticized, again.

Hey guys,

Nice lively debate! (And Tactile, I suggest we meet under an Indaba tree again ...)

lbj2 - I did not attempt to "gloss over" the finer points of your posting. However, we can debate the finer points for ever and a day. The discussion has little to do with the marginal environments in Botswana.

I, too, have accepted that hunting, regrettably, forms part of our environmental model. However, I do not believe that we need to prostitute our wildlife heritage to meet the demands of the canned hunter (I consider it a better option to cull the canner).

I too have watched the boats drive the elephants into a frenzy on the Chobe. This is NOT the fault of the tourist. This is the direct responsibility of the boat operator, and I believe that Botswana National Parks should apply a no-go zone around ellies crossing (but it means too much in "revenue" - and tips for the boat pilot).

The problem lies in the fact that visitors are educated that it's OK to intrude, to pet a cub, to drive over 500 trees in the pursuit of the illusive leopard. It's OK to feed the leopards of Sabi Sands, so that you can have "leopard on a platter". It's OK to shoot wildlife if it's been bred for the shooting. And I agree with tactile that we would have a considerable problem if activities are justified simply on the grounds of "economically justifiable".

I'm concerned about the comment that "sometimes the client is not even informed that it's a canned lion". So the ignorance, delusions and deceit proliferates. Should we be crediting such a PH with the word "professional"? Should we classify the hunter as an honourable ethical hunter simply because he knows no better?

You may notice that I made some references to the so-called academic leaders of our Wildlife Management programmes (who do the research and educate our young folk) deliberately manipulating and/or falsifying data to achieve their own financial agendas. That is largely where the evil lies. These are folk we trust to maintain the integrity of our society. This also applies to those that have deliberately falsified the revenue statistics for hunting safaris as opposed to photographics, to support their own agendas.

A further issue is that the hunting safari industry, and the canned industry in particular, does not, in my opinion and experience, enrich the local communities. It enriches the privileged few who conduct such operations. It would be interesting to see what the locals get paid in comparison to the cost of the trophy. I suspect there would be quite a large discrepancy.

I made mention of some of my personal experiences with hunters. I didn't mention the idiot who placed 7 bullets in a rhino over an 8-hour period, and then eventually called out the game farm owner to finish the "hunt" because he wanted to take a nap. Or the guys, who use dogs to flush "blue duiker" one of our smallest and rarest antelope. Sadly, very few of the hunters I've met, have exhibited any sense of integrity and true "ethic". I'm sure there are such; I find them few and far between.

I stand at the Johannesburg airport watching these pathetic creatures arriving in their camo, with their rifle cases, and their children dressed in camo, and wonder what planet these aliens come from. Fortunately, there are few in comparison to eco-tourists. The actual ratio would be interesting to determine.

I cannot speak as a professional, an expert or as an academic. I am none of the above. I can only speak of my observations, limited though they are.

But I cannot justify or condone the behaviour that I witness.

qUOTE-"I stand at the Johannesburg airport watching these pathetic creatures arriving in their camo, with their rifle cases, and their children dressed in camo, and wonder what planet these aliens come from"

Yeeah, saw those guys to.
Man did they feel so good about themselves.Didn't have the heart to tell them, their camo gear was so out of place.Wrong colour for SA.
And their fanny bags marked them as a '-come get me.I've got all my valuabes here>"
Somehow I had them marked as more of the influx of 'canned hunting' enthusiasts!

And Bushkid0, there better not be a bull ellie under any indaba tre.
Just been ewatching that video!

qUOTE-I, too, have accepted that hunting, regrettably, forms part of our environmental model. However, I do not believe that we need to prostitute our wildlife heritage to meet the demands of the canned hunter (I consider it a better option to cull the canner).

Totally agree.

LOL, tactile!

I'm just so glad that we had three pairs of eyes looking that day. If it was only mine, we would never have found that bull. Talk about "plastic game viewing" ... (I'm sure somebody planted him after we drove past!). That was "canned elephant" for sure ('cept I'm not sure our can would've survived if he'd stepped on it). Good thing I was wearing "camo gear" (afterwards anyway ... LOL!)

Sorry, everybody, just a little personal indaba here. Nothing like airing our dirty washing ...

ROFL!

BushKid,

I am pretty sure that if we sat down, with a couple hours around the bush TV, we would agree on many things.

One of the main problems are the different hunting models different countries, even within the same country, so to write generally here without submitting a 200 pages essay is a difficult thing to do.

Enjoy your Christmas.

Russel
I had a look at your FB page and now I understand where you are coming from

No more wondering on my side.

SV

Congratulations.....

You found my facebook page. Shame that it is closed to non-friends, so I would be interested to see what you saw. Or can you tell a lot from a diving photo?

Rather than trying to start some grey areas around me because you choose cannot repute evidence or produce a reasoned arguemts like others can in their opposition.

Yes I run the Kwando group, though if you want to accuse me of working them, be careful. Someone has already been forced to send a written apology (A US based Botswana Travel Agent) for making the same claim.

Perhaps you would like to join this group that I am help run

http://www.facebook.com/search/?flt=...9228609&ref=ts

ALBERT - Against Lion Breeding and Ecological Reintroduction Tourism

(THis targets lion walking mainly done in Vic Falls etc)

No viable alternatives offered, no intelligent counter argument and an attempt at character defamation.

Whatever next?

PS The American agent posts on this forums.