>>Dordogne region but it's six hours by train to get to Sarlat<<

Brive la Gaillard is only 4 hrs away from Paris by train. Pick up a car in Brive, visit Colonges la Rouge just outside of Brive, and also visit Turenne. Then it is a 1 1/4 hr drive through the beautiful Perigord countryside to Sarlat.

I never eat pork or sauerkraut and I've had some fabulous meals in Alsace. We've spent about 3 years in most areas in France, and we've had our best restaurant meals in Burgundy. But we enjoy the Dordogne region more than Alsace or Burgundy.

Stu Dudley

So you will be in Paris for two days at some point, and 5 somewhere else.
I suggest you take the TGV from the airport to Provence. Return to Paris for your short time.

And I know Burgundy is more than wine, but if it isn't really an interest, maybe somewhere else is better. Provence would be great.

Once you factor in the driving time as well as the train time, it's true it's about 6 hours to get to Sarlat, no matter how you skin the cat (and there are multiple ways).

I'd hop on the TVG and head to Avignon and explore Provence. You can get there in just under 3 hours these days.

What Stu said: train to Brive and then a car. You'll need a car anyway for touring the Dordogne. But, given what you're looking for, the Dordogne is perfect.

I say PROVENCE...."short" TGV ride. to Avignon..rent a car....explore a few places or take TGV on to Aix-en-Provence...see the town...explore the area....easy to do!

Certainly Provence! It's beautiful in the fall.

A vote for Alsace, and no, you don't have to eat sauerkraut!

October weather is very iffy anywhere north of the Loire.

I don't know where you live but for us Canadians, the sun and warmth of the southern latitudes (which include the Dordogne, BTW) are catnip.

Since you can be in Lyon in 1h 59 min from your Paris departure, you're well within your limits of tolerance for travel times.

The train to Brive is 4 hrs, and it about 20 mins from Brive to Collonges. So you start your Dordogne "exploration" in 4 hrs 20 mins (plus car pick-up time, which you'll have for any destination).

I love Provence in early summer when the lavender & sunflowers are in bloom. By October the lavender has been harvested, the sunflowers have dried up, and much of the greenery (except for the vineyards) are a little dry also. I prefer the Dordogne in Sept/Oct when the walnuts are dropping & fall is in the air. Not as dry as Provence - unless it has been an abnormally hot summer.

I would be real careful about any place north of Lyon in October. Note that Dijon (Burgundy) is north of Montreal Canada, and Alsace is about on the North Dakota/Canada border. This may or may not be important to you - depending on how much you value better weather.

Stu Dudley

But Stu, he's headed for Sarlat, which isn't 20 minutes from Brive. And Collonge isn't in the Dordogne - it's the Corrèze. I've been doing this for 20 years, every which way imaginable: train to Libourne, train to Bordeaux, train to Périgueux. It's ALWAYS 6 hours from the time I leave Paris to the time I arrive at my house. Like clockwork.

That's NOT to say I think he shouldn't do it. It's just the realistic timeframe.

Canada should not be a benchmark for cooless, except in the cultural sense.

We had 27 C here in Ontario, Canada last week. How many places in France can claim that?

We had 27 C last October, when I was freezing my butt in Copenhagen and -- to a lesser degree -- Burgundy.

Thanks to all that have responded! My wife will not budge on Alsace, which is what I had determined was our best bet. She just can't get excited about the food and she says it looks too much like Germany and she vastly prefers French architecture.

I am okay with Burgundy but I had been thinking Provence or the Dordogne could be even more enjoyable for us, and my wife is open to both of them as well. The things about Burgundy that get me excited are the food, the chateau, and small towns like Chateneauf, Noyers, and Cluny. We went to Rome two years ago and used a Terrior Guide by David Downie to decide where to eat. I have never eaten better in my life. Anyway, he wrote another Terrior Guide for the Burgundy Region that we have been reading, which drew us to that region. However, from reading Peter Mayle, I discovered Gault Millau, which gives great restaurant recommendations for the whole of France. I have also read about the Pudlo Guides, which look solid from the reviews I've seen. Are these my best resources if I choose to go to Provence or the Dordogne?

The Dordogne looks much prettier to me in pictures than Burgundy or Provence. But getting there looks tough. Our flight arrives at 9am. From CDG the only train to Brive I see on raileurope.com after that gets in at 6pm, leaving from Gare Austerlitz. So I'm thinking it could be 8pm or even later by the time we to Sarlat, if rental car agencies are even still open. The other option is take the train all the way to Sarlat, which gets in at 9pm. That's twelve hours after landing, which is pretty brutal. Maybe I am missing something?

If we decide on Provence, then the big question is where to stay? I am drawn to the Luberon from pictures I've seen as well as the books of Peter Mayle. But logistically it may make more sense to stay in Avignon and take day trips to places like Uzes, Aix, and the Luberon. We want to stay at the same hotel or B&B all five nights to make things more relaxing.

This forum is awesome! Thanks again.

Yes, you are missing something. You need to get off the Rail Europe site and get on www.voyages-sncf.com. Check out trains directly from the airport (type in Roissy for point of origination) to Libourne (TGV [fast train] - look for PREM fares, deeply discounted but nonexchangeable, nonrefundable). There will be lots of them. Rent your car in Libourne and drive to Sarlat - about 2.5 hours. Or check out trains to Brive, but I'm not sure if there are any from the airport.

Re: Provence. We spent a week in the town of St. Remy. It was a good base for daytripping, being a smaller town than Avignon. And it's an easy half-hour from the Avignon TGV station, where we picked up our rental car. I'm not such a big fan of Avignon, especially as a base. But if you won't have a car (not recommended), then Avignon has the best public tranport links.

But I still prefer the Dordogne for you. The train trip to Brive is affected by work on the tracks around Brive. Others on this site might know when that work is due to be completed. An alternative is Libourne, but that's a longer drive to Sarlat.

>>Burgundy that get me excited are the food, the chateau, and small towns like Chateneauf, Noyers, and Cluny<<

There are not nearly as many "cute little villages" in Burgundy as there are in the Dordogne & Provence. And there are not as many chateaux in Provence as there are in Burgundy & the Dordogne. The Dordogne, IMO, has the greatest variety of stuff to do & see.

Stu Dudley

Agree with StCirq that you only check the RailEurope site after you've checked the official rail site. RailEurope usually has higher prices and usually doesn't show all the trains. The English language version of voyages-sncf.com is www.tgv-europe.com. The sooner you buy tickets (up to 3 months in advance) the cheaper they are. If you get redirected to the RailEurope website enter another county, such as Antarctica, as your ticket collection country until this stops happening.

Whether you choose Alsace, Burgundy, Provence or the Dordogne one thing that is true all over France is that charming villages can be found in any region. I could set out an itinerary for you to circle the countryside within 100km of Paris for a week and you still wouldn't see all the charming villages, nor would you see everything there is to see. There are literally thousands of cute villages in France that have never seen a single (foreign) tourist. I ride through them all the time on my bike (near Paris). But since Burgundy was mentioned you can have a look at my trip report (which has lots of photos) about spending a weekend in Burgundy exploring the area near Semur-en-Auxois. If you like just wandering around using a Michelin map and mixing in visits to well known sites and off the beaten path places then maybe you'll get some ideas for that region. http://tinyurl.com/6wtm6u5

You could have a fantastic holiday in any of the three regions. Depends entirely on your priorities. I'll attempt to summarize the choices:

Weather: It will be sunnier, warmer -- perhaps appreciably warmer -- and drier in Dordogne and Provence than in Burgundy

Chateaux and great estates: Provence doesn't have them; the others do, in spades.

Magnificent churches: Burgundy wins hands down.

Food: Good everywhere. Burgundy has the richest cuisine, which is rooted in butter and cream. It's a great place for "classic" French cooking, if that is what you like (I do, many do not)

Ease of driving: Only Provence has seriously hilly topography.

Industrial sprawl, congested roads, urban cruddiness: The closer you get to Marseille and the other big cities of the Rhone corridor, the more exposed you are to these phenomena, which are largely absent from the other two regions.

Charming accommodation: A toss up.

Picturesque towns and villages: A toss-up.

Prices: maybe a bit higher in Provence -- certainly higher on average in the Luberon (restaurants, B&Bs) relative to the other regions, IME

StCirq/FrenchMystiqueTours, thanks for the info on the trains. I have been on the SNCF website several times previously and I always got redirected to Rail Europe when I input the USA as my country. So I had assumed they were the same thing. This helps out a lot.

There is a train that leaves Roissy for Libourne at 10:16am (we get in at 9am). The next one after that does not leave for four more hours. Do you think an hour and fifteen minutes is enough time to catch this train? The first train to Brive does not leave until 1:45pm, which is too long to wait, IMO.

I loved the pictures of Semur-en-Auxois, especially at night. Wow. If we ultimately do decide to stick with Burgundy, like several of you said, I'm sure we will have a great vacation. And the Burgundy countryside looks beautiful too, especially the more hilly parts. We had planned on making Beaune our base based on it being centrally located and easy to get to via train. However, it looks rather flat around there, at least from the pictures I've seen. So maybe a different base there would be better. I'm not sure.

From a food perspective, I think I would prefer Provence to the food anywhere else in France because I like olive oil more than butter or cream. But the negative for me on Provence is from the pictures I've seen, the landscapes are reminiscent of SoCal, which is where I currently live. I'm from the South and I spend a lot of time missing lush, green scenery with brilliant colors in the fall. So I would like to vacation somewhere with really green scenery. And I love chateaux, which as several of you have said, Provence does not have.

So I think we are down to deciding between the Dordogne and Burgundy (or Alsace if I could get my wife to budge..haha). Buildings and towns aside, Alsace looks most beautiful of the three to me in pictures. In the end, I want to make the Dordogne work, if I can figure it out logistically.

Blaise, I'm not sure what you're doing, but I just picked a random date in October and came up with loads more trains that it seems you did (for Libourne; I didn't check Brive, but I can).

At any rate, an hour and 15 minutes is absolutely NOT enough time to catch a train at Roissy. First, you may "land" at 9 am, but it can take forever and a day to taxi to your gate (sometimes a half-hour). Then you have to go through immigration (long lines usually). Then, if you've checked luggage, it could be another 30-40 minutes. Then, if you've landed at Terminal 1, you need to get yourself to Terminal 2, where the TGV station is (another half hour or so). I do this a LOT, and I always give myself around 3 hours from landing to boarding a train. I would probably be aiming at taking the 12:25 train (which is one that I can see, but looks like maybe you cannot).

At any rate, it's way too early to be BUYING tickets. The PREM fares won't even be available for you until 3 months out from your date of travel.

Others can answer this question better but I would say 1 hour 15 minutes might be cutting it close to catch a train after your flight.

It looks like Alsace is ruled out and if you're from SoCal and don't want that type of vegetation and landscape but are seeking lush, green and hilly then I say your choices are certainly Burgundy and the Dordogne. StCirq can tell you much more about the Dordogne since she's been living/traveling there for a long time. I'm no Burgundy expert but I've been enough to know about the points of interest. You saw my report so you know there are plenty of lush, green hilly places near Semur. Another lush, green and hilly area of Burgundy would be the Morvan region south of Vézelay and Avallon (which are both worth a visit):

http://www.vezelaytourisme.com/

http://www.avallon-tourisme.fr/

http://www.parcdumorvan.org/

The area between Beaune and Dijon and east is flat but just a few kilometers west of the area between Beaune and Dijon the landscapes are quite hilly. These two places are right at the base of the hills. The A6 autoroute which runs north to south in this region runs right along the base of the hills separating hilly from flat terrain.

http://www.ot-beaune.fr/

http://www.visitdijon.com/

Another green hilly area to explore would be the area between Tournus and Cluny:

http://www.tournugeois.fr/fr/index.htm

http://www.cluny-tourisme.com/

Lots of tiny cute villages around here such as Brancion, Chapaize, Cormatin (château here) and many others. Look on the Cluny and Tournus websites and you'll find out about the other villages and sites in this area. These links might help too:

http://www.burgundy-tourism.com/

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_ch%C3%A2teaux_de_Bourgogne

Whatever region you choose make sure you have Michelin maps of the scale 1:150,000 or 1:200,000. I plan all my vacations using the Michelin maps and tourist office websites.

Great summary!

Overall, I would choose Provence or the Dordogne. We've been to both places, and enjoyed both very much, but we returned to the Dordogne on a subsequent trip, which shows that we liked it more! Burgundy just did not "click" with me when we visited there. Partly, IMHO, there was less to do, at least in terms of the art and history that I love. Also, while I love all food, love French food, and am a real foodie, Burgundian cuisine just does not appeal to me as much as that of the Dordogne (lots of foie gras!) or Provence. Obviously, a very personal opinion, but it sounds like your wife feels the same way.

I think it will come down to, maybe primarily, the travel times involved; Provence is easier to get to.

Some of the other differences, to me:

- Provence has a more spare, bare beauty, in the same way that I find beauty in the landscape of the U.S. Southwest. Dordogne is lush, green, with meandering rivers and picturesque cliffsides.

- The Dordogne was a big battleground (region) of the 100 Years War, and has numerous castles (of the defensive type) from that time period. Also the amazing prehistoric sites. Provence has a lot of old Roman stuff.

- The biggest wine area in the Dordogne is actually to the west, in Bordeaux.

You will have a wonderful time in either location. And wherever you don't visit on this trip, you can do next time!

Blaise - We spent five days exploring Burgundy last fall, based in Beaune. Our focus was neither food nor wine, but rather scenery, architecture and history. If you'd like to get an idea of what you can do venturing out from Beaune, you might want to read that section of my trip report:

http://www.fodors.com/community/europe/3-weeks-in-paris-lyon-annecy-burgundy-reims-paris-september-october-2011.cfm

Here are links to my pictures from that trip:

http://www.fodors.com/community/europe/3-weeks-in-france-photos.cfm

>>I loved the pictures of Semur-en-Auxois<<

This is one of the "cute little villages" that we were underwhelmed with (along with others in Burgundy). From the outside, it looks fantastic - from both the northern approach and also from the river on the south side of town. In fact, there is a picture of this latter exterior view in my Michelin Green Guide to Burgundy. However, when we went inside the "old" section of town - we though it was very bland. The architecture wasn't that interesting and there wasn't much "going on" (cafes, shops, etc). I can think of perhaps 30 similar-sized villages in Provence & 15 or so in the Dordogne area that we've enjoyed more.

Dijon in Burgundy is our favorite city in France after Paris. Aix & Avignon in Provence are in our "top 6" large cities in France. Beaune in Burgundy and Sarlat are in our "top 5" smaller cities, and Auxerre (Burgundy) is not far behind - as is Arles in Provence & Perigueux & Figeac in the Dordogne general area. But like I wrote earlier - there is a lack of "cute little villages" in Burgundy compared to Provence & the Dordogne. Noyers is nice and so is Vezelay (although it is a little too touristy, IMO).

The "thing" we enjoyed the most in Burgundy was the Chateaux - we probably visited 20 of them in both Beaujolais & Burgundy when we were there for 4 weeks in '08. We stayed 2 weeks in Beaujolais & 2 in Burgundy just outside of Beaune. It is quite hilly south of Beaune - our gite was up on a hill overlooking vineyards.

We've vacationed for 18 weeks in Provence, 10 in the Dordogne, and 2 in Burgundy.

Our favorite regions in France are Provence in Spring and the Dordogne in Fall & Spring (both tied for first). After that:
- Cote d'Azur
- Brittany
- Languedoc/Roussillon (kind of a mixture of Provence & the Dordogne)
- Alsace for 1 week (repetitious after 1 week)
- Burgundy

We've spent 4+ weeks in the Alps & 1 in the Pyrenees, but these are pure "scenery" places and shouldn't be compared with Provence/Dordogne/Burgundy/Augergne/Brittany/Normandy, etc.

Stu Dudley

StCirq, thanks again! I think what's going on is there are trains that show up when you navigate in French as opposed to English. At least that appears to be what has happened to me. I found more trains when I went in and tried in French. Too bad I don't speak French!

And thanks to MaineGG and FrenchMystiqueTours for the additional info on Burgundy.

My wife thinks I'm nuts because I'm so passionate about planning trips to Europe. I'm literally always planning. It's cool to discover this site and see many others have the same passion I do.

Stu, I saw your list of cities on another post. It intrigued me. It made me decide I will definitely spend a day in Dijon when we get to Burgundy, whether or not on this trip. Have you made a similar list of villages and towns with less than 10,000 people? Or maybe your top ten villages and small towns in the Dordogne? The most striking ones in pictures that have caught my eye are Beynac and Rocamadour. Also, do you know if they still rent canoes in October or is that too late in the season?

They MIGHT be renting canoes in early October, depending on the conditions, but almost certainly not after mid-month.

Rocamadour (which technically isn't in the Dordogne) doesn't hold a candle to dozens of other Dordogne towns. It's geologically interesting, but far from pretty. Beynac and La Roque-Gageac are the ones that get photographed most often, and for good reason, but there are gorgeous towns and villages all over the Dordogne: Monpazier, Tamniès, St-Geniès, Limeuil, St-Léon-sur-Vézère, St-Jean-de-Cole, Domme, Castelnaud...the list is endless.

>>Have you made a similar list of villages and towns with less than 10,000 people?<<

Nope - we love "cute little villages" and we've vacationed in France for more that 3 years. So we've naturally visited hundreds & hundreds of small villages. Here is my list of medium sized villages/cities, although I haven't updated it in a couple of years.

Cities with a population greater than 10,000 but less than 85,000
1. Sarlat
2. Colmar
3. Beaune
4. Auxerre
5. Chambery
6. Vannes
7. Annecy
8. Troyes
9. Albi
10. La Rochelle
11. Figeac
12. Perigueux
13. Arles
14. Bourges
15. Dinan
16. St Malo
17. Quimper

Small villages in the Dordogne area north of the Lot River - in no particular order:

Colonges la Rouge
Turenne
Loubressac
Autoire
Carennac
Martel
Terrasson
Rocamadour
Domme
Daglan
Belves
Roque Gageac
Beynac
Figeac
St Cirq Lapopie
Brantome (looks better from the ourside, IMO)
St Genies
Ste Alvere
St Leon

Do you have my Dordogne itinerary??? If not, e-mail me at StuDudley@aol.com & I'll attach it to the reply e-mail. I've also posted my favorite restaurants in Burgundy several times on Fodors.

Stu Dudley

Stu: I too love and admire:
Collonges la Rouge
Turenne
Loubressac
Autoire
Carennac
Martel
... but I have recently been upbraided in these pages for casually and imprecisely referring to them as part of the Dordogne region (which is not a region -- Dordogne is a department; the old pre-revolutionary region is Perigord)

They are, more correctly, in Correze department(hence the Limousin region) or in the Lot department (hence Quercy region).

I think.

Well, after carefully discussing all of our options with my wife, we have decided to stick with Burgundy. The relative ease of getting there was the deciding factor over the Dordogne, given our limited vacation time. There were two deciding factors over Provence for this trip. One, I would like to take Stu's advice and see Provence in the spring when the lavender is blooming. And two, I don't want to do a lot of driving every day on this trip. I live in metro LA and I HATE driving long distances day after day, it's not my idea of fun on vacation. When I look at the different sights in Provence that I want to see, it seems like it is an hour each way to most of them, whether you are based in St Remy or Avignon. I think when I do get to Provence, the thing that will make more sense to me is to change hotels at least once to avoid some of that driving. Plus, there is so much to see there I think I will need more than five days. On my next trip to France, I would like to include both the Dordogne and Provence with a week or more in each region, and do it in the spring.

As for Burgundy, the weather won't bother me at all. Perfect weather to me is 60 degrees with gray skies, and as long as the highs are not in the 40s or lower, it won't bother me at all.

Our plan is to stay all five nights in Beaune. We will take a day trip to Dijon by train for all of one day. We will rent bikes one day and ride through the vineyards, seeing various small towns and sights around Beaune. So that just leaves two full days to do by car. One of those days I want to head south to Château de la Rochepot, Château de Cormatin, Tournus, and Cluny. The last day I want to head north to the Abbey of Fontenay, Chateauneuf, Semur-en-Auxois, Château de Tanlay and Château d’Ancy-le-Franc. This may be too much driving.

Does anyone have thoughts on other things I should add to our itinerary or subtract?

On the way back to Paris, my tentative plan is to drive, stopping in Vezelay on our way out of Burgundy. Then I want to head up to Château de Vaux-le-Vicomte, before dropping the car off in Melun and taking the train back to Paris. Does this seem like too much to do in one day? Or if there is room for more, I would love to also see Château de Bazoches since it's near Vezelay and looks amazing.

>>Château de Tanlay and Château d’Ancy-le-Franc. This may be too much driving.<<

It is a lot of driving - but mostly easy freeway stuff.

Both Tanlay & Ancy le Franc close for lunch, and the last tour starts "some specified time" before their published closing times. Closing is usually the time the gift shops closes. So this means you'll need to plan your itinerary around these closing times.

Stu Dudley

Forgot to mention;
- Save your ticket for Tanlay, & that will get you a discount for Ancy le Franc
- save your ticket for Ancy le Franc & that will get you a discount for Abbey of Fontenay
- save your ticket for the Abbey & that will get you a discount for Bazoches

no ticket discount for Rochepot or Cormatin (our favorite).

Stu Dudley

On your last day it's not the driving distance but how much time you have left after the driving to visit two châteaux, an abbey and two villages. Are you doing interior visits of the châteaux and abbey? I say see what you can see and if you can't see something don't rush trying to see it all. Enjoy what you have time for at a relaxed pace. Even the day you head to Cluny looks busy but see what you can do.

I would see how much time you have left after Vézelay and then make a decision. It's about a 2 hour drive to Vaux from Vézelay and plan on spending 2-1/2 to 3-1/2 hours at Vaux. Then it's a 10-15 minute drive to the train station in Melun after that. Check the closing hours of Vaux and your car rental place and those may be the determining factors, although maybe you can drop-off after the rental agency closes (understand you can't do a walk-through with an agent to verify no damage to the car though). Trains to Paris from Melun run in the evening with direct trains every half-hour to hour and more frequent but slower RER D trains run even later.

The problem with planning trips months in advance is there is a tendency to keep planning. I was just looking at photos of places like Turenne, Collonges la Rouge, Castelnaud, and Carennac and I just can't let it go. I have three kids ages five and under and there just are not going to be that many chances for us to go to Europe for the next few years so I think we should go to the place we most want to go.

I see there is a train from Paris to Libourne that will get there at 5pm. I was thinking we could rent a car there and instead of driving all the way to Sarlat in an incredibly tired and perhaps dangerous state, we could head to Saint-Emilion and have a nice dinner and spend the night. Then the next day we could take a leisurely pace getting to Sarlat, seeing some nice sights along the way. That would still leave us four nights in Sarlat.

Does this seem like a reasonable plan?