Many people post for the first time on Fodor's because they are planning a trip to Italy and they have heard that "Tuscany" is a MUST-SEE. But even if they spend a long time with guidebooks, they get confused about what to see and do, how much time to spend where.
This is a thread to help YOU, the traveler, figure out what would be the most rewarding experience for YOU in Tuscany. It is not a guide to Tuscany. There are guidebooks for that. It is not an attempt to tell you what is the "best" of Tuscany. Anybody who tells you they "know" and "trust me" doesn't know, and more than that, they don't know YOU.
This is a thread that emphasizes that it matters very much what YOU like to do when you plan a trip to Tuscany. It matters what kind of experiences YOU like to have while traveling and what kinds YOU like to avoid.
It has become increasingly common for people to advise about Italy as if it didn't matter whether a trip to Tuscany has any content. But it really does matter if seeing Michaelangelo's David is something you've dreamed of doing all your life or something you read in a guidebook.
Likewise, not everybody will find it a good use of their time and money in Italy to spend days at a stretch in Tuscany driving through a scenic zone of tourist farms and towns, with shopping and eating the major activities of the day. It's just not enough intellectual and cultural engagement for them. It feels like a waste of their precious time in Italy. Exploring Pienza can be fascinating. Your 10th "quaint" hilltown only known for being "quaint'" and having a restaurant popular on Fodor's in fact IS a waste of Italy for many people.
I hope by the time you finish reading this thread you will have enough knowledge to never fall victim to the hype about Tuscany that it can be reduced to a formula that makes every American tourist happy. You need to be at the center of your Tuscan trip, first and foremost. Think about what you like to do and don't like to do --- and don't be afraid to be called a snob, a philistine, a contrarian --- that you're going "too fast" or you're "spending too much time" here or there. Pick what YOU want to see, what you want to experience, and then ask questions about the logistics.
How can you know in advance how to make your dreams come true in a week or less in Tuscany?
Here are some questions I think it might help to ask yourself:
If most of the important artwork of Florence or Siena was moved to museums in Denmark, would I want to go to Denmark to see it?
If your answer is no, then realize that your dreams about going to Tuscany have more to do with things like sunshine, good smells and Italian food, not art. You're likely to be left speechless by your first glimpse of many great artworks in Florence or Siena, but that will give you less lasting pleasure than the clean air and better food outside the tourist-jammed cities. Think about whether you want to spend time in the art cities of Tuscany at all, and don't be afraid to buck the crowd.
Does it matter to me see church interiors with works by Gozzoli, Masaccio, Fra Angelico and Giotto if I have the chance?
If your answer is yes, you should think twice about committing yourself to days of Tuscan driving that glues you to following SS40this and SS30that, to yet another cypress-lined road with a castle town of no particular artistic reward at the end. Many astonishing artifacts of Italian art and history are locked up inside small Tuscan walled towns (San Gimignano, Chiusi, Cortona, Buonconvento, Volterra, Pienza -- to name just a few). By all means track them down to see the art, they are worth the effort. But don't be bullied into content-free meander-shopping of Tuscan hills by people who yell at you that's the "best" of Tuscany. It is for thousands of American tourists to be sure. You're spending the money here and you're entitled to make the most of your own time.
Do I need a vacation without alarm clocks and nothing to do?
If the answer is yes, spending days in the Tuscan countryside -- any part of it -- without a sightseeing agenda can be deeply relaxing. The Tuscan people are among the world's most gracious hosts, and they have created accommodations and restaurants in every price category to delight visitors. Don't hesitate to go to rural Tuscany for a vacation -- in the hills, by the sea, among the thermal baths, or in the mountains -- and just relax. Don't be bullied and nagged into sightseeing or shopping or town hopping. Plan to do it by whim and your own personal design, if at all.
Do I want to shop for wine to ship home?
If the answer is no, you don't need to visit any of Tuscany's famous wine towns. You might enjoy the rural scenery around them or the views from a few of them. A handful of them (very small handful) have architecture, art and historic importance. But they are also the most touristed and touristy parts of Tuscany, because tourists associate Italy with wine -- even if they personally don't drink wine -- and are led to believe the thing to do in Italy, therefore, is go see where they make wine! If you're not interested in buying wine to ship home, there is little point in taking tours of wineries or hanging around wine towns. Unless you like being around English-speaking tourists to chat with them and make new friends. But otherwise,. most other places in Tuscany have more to offer.
If I'm honest with myself, will it disappoint me or annoy me to find myself among lots of other tourists and few Italians when I go to Tuscany?
If the answer is yes, don't let other people call you a snob or push you around for not wanting to go to all the trouble and effort to get to Italy only to find yourself in a tourist safari park. If you want to see the greatest artworks of the Renaissance and you are bothered by the bus tour groups or crowds of semi-lost or anxious crowds of tourists (many of whom don't share your interest despite being there), you will need a strategy for avoiding them or keeping your sense of humor. In rural Tuscan villages, the answer is simpler: go to towns and areas you don't read about in guidebooks and on message boards. They are just as charming, the roads leading to and from them are just as beautiful, the food is often better. There is less tourist shopping, but that's all.
If I'm honest with myself, do I feel terrible if I don't go to the guidebook recommended places?
If the answer is yes, then no doubt you will be going to the guidebook recommended places in Tuscany, as many as you can. You can still make your trip more personally enjoyable by putting the emphasis on what means most to you. Don't feel like you MUST go actually stay in a "cute little hilltown" if a day of scenic driving on your way to Rome will allow you to check "val d'Orcia" off the list.. Likewise, if you feel you must follow guidebook orders to go to the Uffizi despite disliking museum-going, please just remember that for some other people in the room with you, this is the culminations of a personal dream to be standing there.
Am I sure Tuscany is really the right vacation for my kids?
If your answer is "I'm not sure," then read more about Tuscany and think about what you are reading. Apart from a few beach locations, Tuscany is non-stop Renaissance art sightseeing and Etruscan history sightseeing, without English language labels or interactive museums, and its countryside attractions are super-quiet villages with Super-Tuscan wine. Meals are long drawn out affairs. Pizza is rarely on the menu. Bicylcling around Lucca takes less than an hour. Reservations need to be made to climb the Leaning Tower, and the view from the top doesn't interest many kids. There are farms in Tuscany that specialize in activities for kids, with swimming pools, horseback riding, organized trekking, cooking classes.
Am I getting better information from people on message boards who've been to Tuscany than I can get from guidebooks?
If you think the answer is yes. please consider that people who write guidebooks often live in Tuscany, or have spent years there, and speak Italian. People who post on message boards will tell you not to go to a town that they've only been in once 12 years ago (and whose name they can't pronounce) or they will urge you not to miss an enormous museum in Florence and on and on that they visited for one hour a cruise ship tour group without realizing the logistics involved. Some people should never try to plan a successful trip to Tuscany on message boards, and everybody should beware people who ask you to contact them via e-mail.
Different parts of Tuscany suit different needs, different couples, different families, different people.. Don't be bullied by message board posters into staying in a part of Tuscany because it's one of the "big 3", or in another part of Tuscany because " driving in Tuscany is what Tuscany is all about, IMHO." Choose to visit a part of Tuscany because it best matches YOUR reason for being in Italy. Visit if for as long or as short as you like -- one night, 3 days, half a day, just passing through. THERE ARE NO FORMULAS FOR TRAVEL. Truly. There are no "rules." That's for children. And you are the only "expert" you should heed about how to spend your time and money in Tuscany.
Have a great trip!
TUSCANY: What is it? Which parts should YOU visit? How to avoid the hype
Recent Activity
View all Europe activity »
- 1 Drive Rome Florence
- 2 Best area for wine and which one?
- 3 Bus from Sorrento to Naples Airport
- 4 Prague Itinerary
- 5 Time Out London - is there a replacement?
- 6 Weather's crummy in northern Italy now--suggestions for places
- 7 Sicily- two week summer vacation
- 8 4 days in Zurich for the adventurous- what to do?
- 9 Four days to wander France???
- 10 Spain and Portugal Itinerary 2 Week Vacation Help
- 11 Garmisch-Partenkirchen to Fuessen - Last Bus
- 12
My First Trip to Provence and Paris...Loved!!!
- 13 Scotland Itinerary getting better, still needs your expertise!
- 14 Barcelona - eat, drink, dance.
- 15 How to make a phone call from a pay phone in London to Germany
- 16 culinary classes in Biarritz/San Sebastian
- 17 browsing homes for sale in Kent
- 18 Help me choose places to visit in Italy
- 19
Just Returned from a Gate 1 Danube River Cruise
- 20 How Long For Santorini?
- 21 Bathrooms Along This Itinerary (Day in Rome)
- 22 Car rental Italy
- 23 Crete to Sifnos by Ferry?
- 24 Rough itinerary for 14 days in the UK
- 25 A Christmas Store in Paris
So let's summarize the above for those with short attention spans:
Do what you want.
Don't bother asking questions since only you know what you want.
If you must ask, listen only to those who speak Italian and live in Italy.
Yes, people should do what they want in Tuscany and whenever they travel. Shocking idea to the Puritan mind-set, but true.
And yes, guidebooks written by people who speak Italian and have lived in Italy are better guides to Italian travel than internet message boards for planning a trip.
People with attentions span that short might want to go back and read my post and note all I advise is asking questions. That's all my post really consists of. Questions to be asked.
Comments have been removed by Fodor's moderators
Nope, it's not a guide. And it's not for me.
Marija got it exactly right.
This is a reminder to people that travel is about doing what YOU want to do on YOUR trip.
This bluster is just bluster from people who've invested in something I've deeply insulted.
I do think that Zeppole raises some interesting points.
For example, her question about whether or not one would travel to a less obvious destination to view Tuscan art, bears considering. There are people who rarely enter a museum at home, yet feel compelled to spend a morning touring the Uffizzi. Why?
I also tend to agree with the point about well-written guidebooks vs information given here by people who have less-than-in-depth knowledge of the area and who may not share your tastes. This is what I wrote on the topic in a recent thread about the Amalfi Coast; some of what I wrote might be vaguely applicable here; substitute "Pienza" for "Positano: and you get my drift.
<Another things to keep in mind when you get advice here is to take into account the tastes and ages of people offering said advice. There are posters who posits themselves as experts here based on one trip to the region 10 years ago!
There are also people who have been to this area several times but have not ventured beyond the typical tourist track towns of Positano, Amalfi, Ravello, etc. I would be interested to learn how many have actually walked the streets of Minori, Maiori, Vietri, let along Agerola, Pogerola, Scala, and the like.. So while you will hear on and on about Positano, Praiano, Amalfi (the latter gets misguidedly bashed here by people who have visited only on brief daytrips) you will not hear much about some of the other coastal and inland villages and towns. This is not because they are not worth visiting, but because very few people on this forum have actually had the time or the interest to deviate from the well-trodden trail..>
I glean much useful information on this forum--especially about more off-the-beaten path destinations-- but I use it as a supplement to other reading and researching, not as a sole resource. After a while, one gets to know which posters have useful information to impart and which posters jump in with a cut-and-paste "one size fits all" answer without giving the query much thought.
You can say whatever you wish but personally I find someone saying that you should do such and such because "it's the obvious choice" is about as offputting as it gets and, thankfully, we have seen none of that in this post
Seems to me that with all these helful threads lately, perhaps we need a new forum for the OP - oh wait, it's called a blog. Or a website.
Comment has been removed by Fodor's moderators
socaltravler,
What have you got against having more information for new traveler's on Fodor's website? And having it in one place?
The links I provided to 1 to 3 day itineraries in popular cities were in response to questions I see posted by new travelers on Fodor's every day.
And I see posters coming nearly every day to Fodor's to ask about "Tuscany" because they really have only a vague idea of how to approach this much-hyped Italian destination, and they are plainly torn between not wanting to waste their time in history-rich Italy and not wanting to miss what they hear is a special experience of nature.
Too many regular Fodor's posters take advantage of a new traveler's ignorance to hump their favorite Tuscan experience and push educational ideas of what they think Italian travel should be (Rome first, Venice always, no running to see a fresco more than 4 hours away, no day trips to the sea).
Nobody has to read this thread or refer to it if they don't think it's helpful.
Well, I for one agree heartily with both zeppole and ekscrunchy - when I visit Italy, which I try to do at least once a year, I follow my heart, indulge my whims, and "deviate from the well-trodden trail." I guess that's one of the reasons I return over and over again, because the more hidden delights I discover, the more I'm impelled to search out yet more. I have no interest in following in the footsteps of others' dream trips, but love to read about their experiences in order to decide about where to go next.
I think this is a good reminder to anyone planning a trip anywhere--and I don't understand the hostility and resentment it generates in some.
Like ekscrunchy, I do extensive research but get invaluable input from forums as well. Thank you for the helpful information you provide zeppole, I know I will be consulting you when I return to Italy!
Comment has been removed by Fodor's moderators
You are right Dukey, as Zeppole points out, nothing is "one size fits all". I would never use just one post as an end all answer, the goodness of this site is the variety of people putting their two cents in. I value guidebooks, but also the personal experiences of my fellow travelers and those minute details they share that can really enhance the experience. When we planned our trip to Paris, this site was invaluable to me. I took suggestions from people who seemed to have the same sensibilities as I, and nothing I used was a disapointment. Tips for tickets in New York have saved me a fortune over the years. I just did my first posting, and (amid a lot of different opinions) it really helped me to resolve what I wanted out of my trip, and make changes that will truly enhance it. You must know your own mind, and definitely have to "consider the source" at times, but this is a wonderful tool.
Thanks to everybody who responded positively.
To be clear, I think the people who take time to post their PERSONAL experiences on Fodor's, clearly labeled as such, do help other travelers. That is mainly what new posters are interested in. I've no interest in stopping bobthenavigator or stcirq from doing that -- even though both of them have whipped out every tactic they can dream up to try to stop my information from getting onto these boards. I'm sorry people want to join them.
But when people -- and I don't care how many times they go to Europe -- tell new travelers to go to tourist hotspots because it's their "first time" or withhold from new travelers the information that Positano or Collioure is super-touristy because they think somebody ought to see that before they get to enjoy Agripoli or Bordeaux, it seems to me so unfair to the unsuspecting traveler.
I get it that people mean well when they assume they know what's best for a traveler they've never met whose asking naive questions, and send them off to some boilerplate tourist experience with a cheery "You'll thank me for this."
But there really is nothing wrong or crazy with having another point of view available on Fodor's that says "Think again before you spend."
It is interesting, but I'm not sure I agree with the basic premise.
My first experience of Italy as Florence. I fell in love with the country based on three days in one city. Nowadays, after 20+ trips to Italy, my personal preference in Tuscany would be Siena or Lucca. My recommendation to somebody who asked me would still be Florence.
I can only offer advice based on my experiences. I will not say "do not go to ......" but can say I went to ..... and didn't enjoy it because. Similarly I can say "I loved Pisa/Arezzo/Lucca/Pistoia because....."
The guidebook think is another point of contention. I live near Winchester, a great tourist city in England.
Am I an expert - no. I know the history, I am there frequently, I recommend the place to visitors, and I say what I like, but my main recommendations are based on what friends and family have liked as tourists.
It is all very well for me to rave about it being the burial place of English Kings, but that probably bores the pants off those who want to see "King Arthur's round table" and Jane Austin's house.
That places such as Florence and Venice have been "Tourist Traps" for hundred of years does not make them any less desirable.
I think one of the shortcomings of this forums is the lack or shortage of information available on less well known destinations. A few times when I have asked about them, I get directed to the more popular destinations with questions like, why do you want to go there? go to Venice, Florence, etc. I think the more opinions offered on a place, the better, just wish the many who travel off the beaten path would post those experiences more often.
I haven't posted here for very long.
Does seem a strange place!
But I would also constructively say that you are posting an awful lot on the Italy forum. I have been there many times and can't be bothered posting about my exepriences. I haven't the time for huge discussions about every piece of advice I give. Which is a shame really.
I think if you reread you OP it does the tone does seem a little strange to new posters. I have absolutely no idea what else is going on, other than there seems to be a battlefield for the hearts and minds of people travelling to Italy which seems a bit strange for these types of sites. Most other sites are quite warm and friendly, seems to be a bit prickle around here.
I have posted in the lounge because it seems thought provoking - wasn't aware that not posting was something to be proud of! Learn something every day.
Comment has been removed by Fodor's moderators
It is without wit and charm, two of the attractions of Italy and Italians.
And it is indeed, groundbreaking travel advice, that different people people enjoy different things. And the day after Tuesday is Wednesday.
There are people who rarely enter a museum at home, yet feel compelled to spend a morning touring the Uffizzi (sp). Why?
I certainly think that one of the best things about travel is getting out of the usual rut. It's wonderful that someone who may be apathetic about museums at home gets it together to visit the Uffizi. They may just enjoy it and do it again. If not, I don't see any permanent damage being inflicted on them. (It's also just possible that the Uffizi collection is a tad better than that in Doomsville, Indiana.) The traveler who embraces only familiar experiences misses a lot. IMHO a good trip involves a dose of "Wow! I didn't think I'd like that!"
UFIZZI!!! Shame on me. I will type it again: UFIZZI!
I meant that people should not feel "compelled" to spend half a morning of, for example, a three-day visit to Florence, in the museum just because it has been drummed into their heads that the place is "must see." There are too many "experts" here that express cut-and-paste/ one-size fits-all info without really taking the time to read the original query. But now perhaps I am deviating from the original post....
UFIZZI. Offices.
Before I leave the table, I want to make it clear that St. Cirq has been helpful to me in previous threads about France, in particular, and in no way do my comments apply to the information that she has offered me/us in the past.
Kind of an odd thread. Aren't most people's travel choices based on personal preference? I can't imagine why someone who hated art galleries and museums would consider planning an entire trip around art galleries and museums. BUT I also think people should consider trying things that they would not normally do. Before our first trip to Europe together, my husband was hesitant about "boring old churches". I said "fine but do me a favour and go to one cathedral with me". He did and was totally hooked by St. Paul's in London. Now none of our European trips would be complete without some cathedrals and "interesting old churches". So maybe even the person who hates art galleries should at least check out the Ufizzi but only an idiot would feel "compelled to spend a day there" if they were bored.
I think most people on forums like this recommend what THEY enjoyed and I see nothing wrong with that.
A mental note to myself: if I'll be planning Italy next year, click on Zeppole's name to read advices.
Comments have been removed by Fodor's moderators
Well, I think a public forum is for posting what you enjoy and leaving it up to the other person to take the advice or not.
It could also be for pointing out what other travelers enjoy even though you may not and then letting the asker take it from there.
Some new travelers need to see all the options and then tailor them to their own tastes. Is that what you are getting at, OP?
When I first started planning trips, before I discovered Fodors, I would go to a travel agency and get tour brochures on what is interesting in a certain area. Then I would decide what I wanted to see, take notes and visit whatever it was. Usually they were guided bus tour brochures and I would pick and choose. Isn't that what this forum offers also?
Well zeppole, I've been asking myself many of the same questions you posed above, so it was great to see them and your take on them as well. The only one I'm not sure of is if Tuscany is right for the kids, but we'll be plowing on anyway, trusting that eventually I'll find the right agriturismo and itinerary to keep them semi-interested. This part of the trip will be about relaxation...and maybe a few more days of sunshine, smells and food, thanks to your post!
I'm late at the party, and it would seem that half of it has already been deleted (certainly for good reason). Three and a half short (those who know me are invited to start laughing) remarks:
- I concur with most everything zeppole (and ek) wrote, but it's not specifically about Tuscany. Spending pretty much time in Venice e.g., I'd love to share the city online with those travelers who passed zeppole's exam.
- One point I don't concur with is the first one, however well worded. I for one always prefer art in situ, in the place it has been created for. Museums are not even my second choice; my fourteenth, perhaps. So whether the art has been transferred to a museum in Florence or in København, the fact that it has been transferred at all makes it lose much of its appeal for me. I don't think that disqualifies me for appreciating Tuscan art and architecture, or Tuscany in general apart from sunshine and food (which I appreciate, too, admittedly).
- The second point I don't 100 percent concur with is guidebooks vs. forums. Just recently, on zeppole's "1-2-3" threads, we had an interesting discussion on the depressing uniformity of guidebook (or guidesite, for that matter) recommendations: most all of them send people to see precisely the same places, precisely the same sights, and there are more than just a few sights on which more information is to be found on Fodor's than in guidebooks. (At least, more recent information. Try to find something on S. Zuane Degolà in Venice... I'm almost sure you'll have to go back to Lorenzetti and Ruskin, which means that the most up-to-date guidebook would be of 1926. On Fodor's, not so; at least, if anyone's interested, s/he could get an answer here.) And without going into details, I dare saying that there are some Fodorites who speak better Italian than many guidebook authors. So I think for guidebook authors and forum posters, pretty much the same is true: most of them are dumb, some of them are brillant, and you just have to figure out whom to trust.
- (ek, will you forgive me? Uffizi, not Ufizzi. Just think "offices", it's the same word, only the Italian z became c in English.)
Ummm - could anybody be kind enough, please, to update me what happened (here, most probably, where several posts seem to refer to "negative" posts that are simply no longer here)? zeppole's profile, "this page is no longer on Fodor's"? StCirq's profile, "this page is no longer on Fodor's"? Dear ek or anybody else, please enlighten me!
zeppole did denigrate StCirq and a few others, like Bob the Navigator, someone else. But not sure how it came to this.
franco, when posters cross the line in attitude or language, they are banned from Fodors. The offending posts are usually removed.
It would appear they have been given a little "time out."
Thank you! Jean, I'm aware of these procedures - I was just curious what happened to unleash them. Fra_Diavolo - if it's just a time out, I'm fine with it. But basically, we need them, zeppole AND StCirq. BOTH of them, although perhaps none of them will be glad to read that.
Since I am a retired newspaper editor I am reading zeppole's post with an editor's eye and sensibility. The first thing that jumps out is in the second paragraph: "This is a thread to help YOU, the traveler, figure out what would be the most rewarding experience for YOU in Tuscany." This line leads me to believe that I will learn great things--among them where I should go in Tuscany. Nope. Not in all of the more than 1,680 words of this rant does it actually help me find anything close to a rewarding experience. Not only that, this would never have made it into one of my publications for several reasons. One, the tone is all-knowing and patronizing (as usual). Two, the use of ALL CAPS to prove a point is childish and does not prove the point. Three, this is a forum sponsored by a travel guide company. People who visit this site are presumably looking for some "guidance." This rant provided none. My sincere hope is that anyone who is sincerely looking for a little help in planning a pleasant vacation looked elsewhere lest they be hopelessly confused and decide to go to Spain instead.
franco - As pointed out, Zeppole has been banned. This was at least Zeppole's fifth screen name (fessed up to five of them on another thread although I think there have been more) that has been banned for slamming other posters and putting down their ideas/suggestions. Zeppole has also been banned on other boards and always reappears with a new screen name to stir up more trouble.
I'm sorry to see St Cirq was caught up in Zeppole's antics as St. Cirq has been a long time poster on Fodor's and I don't recall any questionable behavior by her. I hope St. Cirq's is a temporary timeout.
>>I hope St. Cirq's is a temporary timeout.<<
It is - she will be back soon !!!
Stu Dudley
Yes, stcirq has been temporarily banned for something she said that was really a nothing compared the this other one who has such a bad reputation.
re the OP:
E che ne so io.
I think part of the fun of researching a trip might be the exchange of ideas and suggestions between several different people. I do agree with Donna that the OP came off as patronizing, but that tone might attract some people. Didn't do much for me. After all, I love traveling in Italy, can speak the language, and am not a child. I also passionately believe that much of the magic and magnetism of Italy lies in the discovery made by each individual, at their own level, in their own time. One might hint at one direction or another if offering the voice of experience, but then allow the new traveler enough breathing space to run for themselves. And I have trust that Italy will provide the rest, without fail. Which is what I love about Italy.
As for all these "bannings", hopefully those involved will use the time off to enjoy life without focusing so much on pointless bickering on a computer, for pete's sake. Of course, I didn't read the comments involved-so maybe the 2 posters said profound things about which I am still blissfully unaware.
> This was at least Zeppole's fifth screen name
kybourbon, what were her/his other names, remember any?
I've forgotten some of them, but she actually admitted to having five in a thread not long ago. Here is a link to a thread where she is slamming Stu and he mentions one of the previous names (it's banned).
http://www.fodors.com/community/europe/please-help-me-with-a-loose-tuscany-itinerary-long-sorry.cfm
This link has posts under the previous name where she is talking about a hotel she stayed in Chiusi (La Sfinge). If you've been on the Italy board awhile, you will recognize the hotel name as a previous name (banned also). In this thread she is slamming Bob and I had become tired of it and responded. She had been attacking Bob and Stu every time they would post. It's easy to spot the writing style because the attacks are all similar.
http://www.fodors.com/community/europe/lodging-in-chiusi.cfm
Bob and Stu will remember other earlier names.
I was so sorry to see that StCirq has been temporarily banned. She has been nothing but helpful to me. I have written to Fodor's asking that they please reinstate her soon.
Zeppole regularly is rude and patronizing to other posters as if he/she is the only one who knows anything about Italy. I won't miss him/her but will surely recognize him/her under a new screen name!
Hasn't entirely too much bandwidth been wasted *by* Zeppole (much of it in lengthy quotes from copyright material, which is explicitly forbidden by Fodor's guidelines and only sometimes proved the point that she was trying to make) and *about* Zeppole (to which I have admittedly contributed, in a futile discussion with her most fervent admirer and defender)?
Another user name was primeranoche. Which leaves two more to be identified.
Interesting. Thanks for those answers.
The Italy posts are going to be a lot less interesting.
Popular sentiment is turning against blood sports.
I,ll be darned--does not surprise---the Forum will be better for it. I hope St. Cirq is back soon--she is one of the best.
About a year ago I called Zeppole on changing post names and she denied it, but the style is hard to miss. Primeranoche was the only name I recall.
As for all these "bannings", hopefully those involved will use the time off to enjoy life without focusing so much on pointless bickering on a computer, for pete's sake. Of course, I didn't read the comments involved-so maybe the 2 posters said profound things about which I am still blissfully unaware.
Agreed. Although the style of the OP is kind of snotty and rather dogmatic in its own way, she makes some good points. Regardless, I still love the "biggies" in Italy and don't feel that any one kind of trip is more authentic than another (i.e., I don't worship at the temple of Off the Beaten Path for its own sake). But I have absolutely no desire to follow someone's very specific driving itineraries in Italy or France or elsewhere in Europe, especially considering the ages/backgrounds/interests of many posters here diverge wildly from my own. But for those who like such things, enjoy!
Wow, how did I miss this one????
I would like to lend my incredible expertise below when it comes to traveling in Italy. OK, maybe not incredible nor do I have any expertise, but here they are anyway.
1) If you do not know how to put your rental car in reverse, you can be sure many embarrassing moments are on the near horizon. After pushing our car into our parking space in Spello, every night before I went to sleep for the rest of the trip, I repeated the words, "Pull up on the ring! Pull up on the ring!"
2) When filling up your rental car the first time, take that extra few seconds to make sure it is Super Gas or Diesel. If your car sounds like a bicycle with baseball cards in the spokes after filling up and driving for a few minutes, you can be assured you used the incorrect petrol.
3) If you find yourself suddenly driving in circles on the Trevi town square, immediately get the hell out of town before the locals jot down your license plate number.
4) If a truck is coming straight at you on the wrong side of a two-lane highway, I found closing my eyes and having Mary say a quick prayer in the back seat helped immensely (you may substitute other traveling partners for Mary, however she is available for a price to travel with you).
5) Speaking of Mary, Ambien and Italian red wine do not go together very well.
6) Every wife should watch at least one original Star Trek episode in order to get Tracy's "look" down to perfection when their spouse screws up.
7) For husbands: A good way to keep from getting "the look" is to help your wife with the luggage and not the two cute girls seated adjacent to you on the train (Trust me on that one guys).
8) Most Importantly - When you do screw up (and you probably will), don't let it bother you. I find that two glasses of red wine (sans Ambien) and a good sense of humor make most miscues seem not so bad and sometimes, in retrospect, they can be very funny.
Hope this helps.
Ambien and Italian red wine do not go together very well.
More nonsense from self-appointed experts.
j/k
Bob
Travel is fun
Writing about travel is fun
Helping others travel is fun
The fun had gone from all this.
Where does living in Italy and claiming the moral high ground just for that reason fit into all this?
It will be a better place until she decides to troll us again.
I always wondered if she lived in Italy full time as she claimed, as many of her postings were done in the middle of the night. Then again, maybe it was the sleep deprivation that made her so cranky.
http://www.forbes.com/2009/10/31/brain-psychology-behavior-technology-breakthroughs-sleep-deprivation.html
Granted I did not read all of the posts, but I have never seen anything that crosses the line as abusive from zeppole. Opinionated, yes, but I think the reaction is a bit overblown. If there was some major insult I missed then I truly apologize, but I think everyone should have a thick skin when they frequent any forum. I always found her posts really informative, whether I agreed with her assessment or not.
That is because, yorkshire, you were never on her short list of people to insult or abuse in a public forum; she is legend under many a name. I only ran afoul once, back when I didn't quite understand the history, and called her on some particularly rude remarks about another travel forum. Later I learned that not only had she been banned there, but had used a few names there as well. When I learned who she had been, I remembered her well. It is really too bad because yes, a lot of her information was good, but the rest was insane.
I post only occasionally, and normally steer away from the fray when things get testy between zeppole and Bob, or zeppole and St Cirq., or zeppole and kybourbon ... though there does seem to be an unmistakable pattern here.
I must admit to having found this thread entertaining ... except for the initial post, which seems to be an accumulation of incoherent ramblings, leading to no discernable objective. Honestly, what was the point of this OP, if not to stir up some of her favorite “rivals”?
yorkshire
zeppole spread a lot of lies and half-truths about me. See the thread posted here earlier:
http://www.fodors.com/community/europe/please-help-me-with-a-loose-tuscany-itinerary-long-sorry.cfm
On another thread that was deleted by the Fodors people, she told a newbie OP to ignore any advice offered by me or StCirq - before either of us even posted anything.
She accused Joan Grace of being an agent or having a financial interest in Paris Perfect Apt rentals - which Joan does not - just a repeat customer who spends several months a year renting Paris Perfect apts and therefore probably receives some discounts & special "considerations".
Is this abusive?? How would you like to be told that your advice is "irresponsible" (see above link), that it should be ignored (deleted thread), and that you are WRONG (another comment about me in another thread) ???
Stu Dudley
Tom, Leave it to you to find the humor--well said.
Is this abusive?? How would you like to be told that your advice is "irresponsible" (see above link), that it should be ignored (deleted thread), and that you are WRONG (another comment about me in another thread) ???
Obnoxious and annoying and perhaps not very nice but I wouldn't call the above abusive.
Your definition of abusive is quite different from mine !!
Stu Dudley
zeppole
stepsbeyond
sfinge (that isn't exactly how it was spelled)
primeranoche
nessundorma? - was that another one?
There were others and as stated above, some of the names were used on other boards that do a better job of permanently banning. Yes, she had some info that she gleaned from reading lots of articles, many in Italian newspapers/guides and from Google. She regularly told people to stay at various agriturismo and eat all their meals there when she had never set foot on the properties yet slammed everyone else for their suggestions and questiong whether they had ever actually stayed/ate there.
Leely2 - Yes, verbal abuse is still abuse. It was to the point that every time Bob or Stu posted, she attacked them and essentially called them liars and stupid as she did others.
>>>or zeppole and kybourbon ... though there does seem to be an unmistakable pattern here.<<<
AFAIK, I only had one or two threads where I posted because I was tired of her abuse of others. It was putting a pall on the entire Italy forum and had run quite a few nicer posters off. She says she "dropped a piano" on me, but I don't recall any run in with her about Orvieto. I think she confused me with someone else.
Bob and Stu have been on Fodor's for years and to my knowledge, never banned. Nor have they been banned on other boards. When you are being banned on multiple boards, under multiple names, you have serious issues.
As a relative newbie I would like to chime in. I am by no means an Italy expert having made only three trips there and visiting a few areas, and have not, alas, been there since 1992. I have learned about Liguria from Zeppole's posts and am interested in travelling there.However, I am very put off by the abusive, yes, abusive tone and have been afraid to post some impressions of places I travelled because of her. I do not look forward to her new incarnation, but I do miss some of her info. I do not agree that posting on a travel forum should require a thick skin. It should require the ability to tolerate disagreement, to take everything with a grain of salt.
kybourbon, I don't see what Stududley described in his post as abusive, verbal or otherwise. He said he was called "wrong," that the OP said his advice should be ignored and that his advice was irresponsible. That's verbal abuse? When it's directed at an adult posting on an internet travel forum? I think it's obnoxious, tactless, etc., but no, I don't call it abuse.
Admittedly I pop in and out of the Europe forum based on where my next vacation will be and seem to have missed all this history that you're talking about. I don't think I've ever seen those other screen names.
Ciao!
Good comments, jubilada !!!
Stu Dudley
Thanks, Stu.
When a self-proclaimed "artist" tells you that she goes to Florence many times but has no interest in seeing David, you can't help but wonder. You'd think she'd at least want to check out the competition.
<nessundorma? - was that another one?>
I'd be very surprised if so. As far as I recall it, nessundorma liked Venice; at least (about this one, I'm 100 percent sure), she recommended me one restaurant there that she had regularly visited, the Do Farai. I don't think zeppole would have recommended (or regularly visited, for that matter) any restaurants in Venice, a city she thoroughly dislikes. I can't also remember nessundorma saying she lived in Italy. Or being so very prone to pick fights with other Fodorites.
I admit I'm the defender of zeppole Zerlina was referring to above; more precisely, of the advice zeppole was offering (and hopefully, will be offering again). Not entirely so of her way of dealing with controversies, though I think the occasional sarcastic comment is perfectly fine among adults, and even a good fight once in a while is enjoyable; but neither should become a principle feature of any poster's presence. I did regret how she was regularly getting at, among others, Bob, Stu Dudley, StCirq (a poster I'm holding in particularly high esteem, and hope she, too, will be back soon), janisj... regret because it was simply not fair with regard to those posters; and regret also because it did severe harm to the mostly excellent advice she was providing, as has been shown by the negative comments also on the content of her postings that are regularly coming up (not fair, IMO, but her constant readiness for battle was obviously too much for a majority of posters, way too much).
So regardless of all negative points, I do hope she comes back; but I do also hope she'll be as incredibly nice with everyone as she usually was with me (so yes, I'm aware I'm having an easy time defending her!) - which doesn't mean we didn't have our controversies, too! But very enjoyable in-depth controversies on factual issues, never getting personal (like only recently about the architecture of Il Redentore in Venice, very interesting). I wish everybody could have this kind of polite, respectful, profound discussions with her!
My best advice for anyone going to Italy is to follow MaiTaiTom and friends wherever they go. They will make lots of mistakes, which travelers will have great fun watching and will learn a great deal.
I only wish I had remembered his advice about the REVERSE gear, cuz it took us a VERY long time to get out of the rental car lot!!
Then again, I'm glad I didn't remember to go up in that awfully scary FUNIVA in Gubbio!!
I take all advice gratefully and use it to plan the trip I want. I love the regular helpful posters on this Italy forum, in fact, all of Europe, and other areas as well.
Please, great posters, don't go away.
Newsflash: Zeppole has been debanned. StCirq has been debanned.
Let the fun continue...
Where is nessundorma??? I have missed her posts.
And where are you, Traviata? We've been missing yours, too!
Btw, in response to my above post, I've been given (elsewhere) some pretty convincing hints that nessundorma was indeed an earlier incarnation of zeppole. So that's a probable answer to your question!
Hi Franco,
Our last trip took us to Paris and before that, we shared our Italy time with Spain.....it is time to go back and concentrate on Italy!
"nessundorma was indeed an earlier incarnation of zeppole"...can this be so????