Train travel in Europe
Sep 3rd, 2015, 07:06 PM
#1
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Train travel in Europe
Hi,
My wife and I are going to Europe towards the end of the year (December) for a month - this is our first trip! We have no idea about train travel, and are just seeking any help, advice and suggestions. We don't want to drive because of snow/ice etc...definitely aware it will be cold. We'll be travelling the following route via train:
- Paris to Lyon
- Lyon to Bern
- Bern to Grindelwald
- Grindelwald to Lucerne
- Lucerne to Freiberg
- Freiberg to Berlin (would like an overnight train if possible)
- Berlin to Amsterdam (would like an overnight train if possible)
(plane from Amsterdam to London)
- London to Paris
Open to all suggestions and help, but wondering what the best ticket to buy is (i.e. point-to-point), through who (i.e. seat61) and when. I've heard that 3 moths is a good time (i.e. now).
Thanks for any advice or help
My wife and I are going to Europe towards the end of the year (December) for a month - this is our first trip! We have no idea about train travel, and are just seeking any help, advice and suggestions. We don't want to drive because of snow/ice etc...definitely aware it will be cold. We'll be travelling the following route via train:
- Paris to Lyon
- Lyon to Bern
- Bern to Grindelwald
- Grindelwald to Lucerne
- Lucerne to Freiberg
- Freiberg to Berlin (would like an overnight train if possible)
- Berlin to Amsterdam (would like an overnight train if possible)
(plane from Amsterdam to London)
- London to Paris
Open to all suggestions and help, but wondering what the best ticket to buy is (i.e. point-to-point), through who (i.e. seat61) and when. I've heard that 3 moths is a good time (i.e. now).
Thanks for any advice or help
Sep 3rd, 2015, 07:19 PM
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Seat 61 will give you hints on how to buy train tickets for each country. It doesn't sell tickets.
Buy your ticket from the operator in each country, or Eurostar for London to Paris. It is good to buy early as you can get the best prices. Timetables may not be available yet for the period after about 10 December, but they will gradually start to show.
DO NOT USE Rail Europe. Or a Eurail Pass
Buy your ticket from the operator in each country, or Eurostar for London to Paris. It is good to buy early as you can get the best prices. Timetables may not be available yet for the period after about 10 December, but they will gradually start to show.
DO NOT USE Rail Europe. Or a Eurail Pass
Sep 3rd, 2015, 07:21 PM
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Before you try to figure out trains, I think you need to do some editing of your itinerary. You have listed 10 places for your month. If you really have 30 nights on the ground in Europe, that would yield 3 nights per location - just two full days in each place. For a first trip, I'd suggest half that many places so you have time to settle in a bit and get to know a place. Make a list of what you want to see/do/experience in each place and I expect it will quickly become obvious that you cannot accomplish that in two days.
Sep 3rd, 2015, 08:17 PM
#4
I would also suggest a less ambitious itinerary, especially as multiple holidays could impact your sightseeing. If you can avoid returning to Paris, that would help. Fly into Paris and fly out of London (or Amsterdam or Berlin).
As to overnight trains, most (including the two you mention) involve connections, sometimes multiple connections. Add the noise and motion of many intermediate stops, and I for one get very little sleep and arrive wiped out. On arrival, it's highly unlikely you'd be able to access your hotel room, so you'd just drop your luggage and start sightseeing. The final problem is the overnight trains you're contemplating don't operate every day, so you'd have to organize your itinerary to match the train timetables.
I think you mean Freiburg (im Breisgau).
As to overnight trains, most (including the two you mention) involve connections, sometimes multiple connections. Add the noise and motion of many intermediate stops, and I for one get very little sleep and arrive wiped out. On arrival, it's highly unlikely you'd be able to access your hotel room, so you'd just drop your luggage and start sightseeing. The final problem is the overnight trains you're contemplating don't operate every day, so you'd have to organize your itinerary to match the train timetables.
I think you mean Freiburg (im Breisgau).
Sep 3rd, 2015, 08:30 PM
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Kathie is giving you some very wise advice.
It seems that the more time you have, the more things you can see and do. The opposite is true. You can go at a very fast pace for a week or ten days, but by two weeks, burn out sets in. It is better to pace yourselves, especially for a whole month. I think you need to cut something too, but without knowing your interests or what you want to see or do, I can't make good recs about what to cut.
Your destinations are pretty far flung. You will use a large percentage of your time traveling. It is sometimes more productive to spend a bit more time in fewer places and see more in those places.
You know it will be cold, but days are short so outdoor sightseeing time is also reduced. Keep that in mind when deciding where you want to spend time. You will probably be spending time in pubs or cafes or finding concerts, etc. in the evenings.
If you have not purchased tickets yet, rather than RT to Paris, look at "multi-destination" options. Fly into one city and out of another. Some cities have higher departure fees, so try different combinations.
A few options:
Start in London, train (or fly) to Amsterdam, train to Paris, end in Berlin.
Start in London, train to Paris, end in Amsterdam.
Start in Berlin, then Switzerland, France, end in Amsterdam or London.
If possible, I would avoid at least one of those long rides to/from Berlin.
If for some reason you must do RT from Paris, when you arrive in Paris, go straight on to your next destination, saving one time of getting into Paris, checking into a hotel, etc., and put all of your time in Paris at the end, since you would have to be there for the flight home.
You can nail down your itinerary and transportation once you have narrowed down your destinations. Cutting even one place will help.
It seems that the more time you have, the more things you can see and do. The opposite is true. You can go at a very fast pace for a week or ten days, but by two weeks, burn out sets in. It is better to pace yourselves, especially for a whole month. I think you need to cut something too, but without knowing your interests or what you want to see or do, I can't make good recs about what to cut.
Your destinations are pretty far flung. You will use a large percentage of your time traveling. It is sometimes more productive to spend a bit more time in fewer places and see more in those places.
You know it will be cold, but days are short so outdoor sightseeing time is also reduced. Keep that in mind when deciding where you want to spend time. You will probably be spending time in pubs or cafes or finding concerts, etc. in the evenings.
If you have not purchased tickets yet, rather than RT to Paris, look at "multi-destination" options. Fly into one city and out of another. Some cities have higher departure fees, so try different combinations.
A few options:
Start in London, train (or fly) to Amsterdam, train to Paris, end in Berlin.
Start in London, train to Paris, end in Amsterdam.
Start in Berlin, then Switzerland, France, end in Amsterdam or London.
If possible, I would avoid at least one of those long rides to/from Berlin.
If for some reason you must do RT from Paris, when you arrive in Paris, go straight on to your next destination, saving one time of getting into Paris, checking into a hotel, etc., and put all of your time in Paris at the end, since you would have to be there for the flight home.
You can nail down your itinerary and transportation once you have narrowed down your destinations. Cutting even one place will help.
Sep 3rd, 2015, 09:05 PM
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I agree with the others that you are covering a lot of ground, especially as the days will be shorter.
However, with regard to where to buy tickets, I have found that the best sites are the national rail sites. That is, voyages-sncf.com, sbb.ch, bahn.de, eurostar. Advance purchase tickets are often cheaper but not always. For example, I've had big savings buying in advance in France but not in Switzerland.
Train travel in Switzerland is expensive but you should be able to work out fairly easily whether a pass of some sort is worthwhile for you compared to point to point tickets. Check swisstravelsystem.com as well as sbb for passes.
However, with regard to where to buy tickets, I have found that the best sites are the national rail sites. That is, voyages-sncf.com, sbb.ch, bahn.de, eurostar. Advance purchase tickets are often cheaper but not always. For example, I've had big savings buying in advance in France but not in Switzerland.
Train travel in Switzerland is expensive but you should be able to work out fairly easily whether a pass of some sort is worthwhile for you compared to point to point tickets. Check swisstravelsystem.com as well as sbb for passes.
Sep 3rd, 2015, 11:43 PM
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There is no direct overnight train from Berlin to Amsterdam. It would require several changes in the middle of the night. A direct train, or one with one change takes between 6 and 6 and a half hours.
There is a CNL train from Feiburg to Berlin.
I would not rely on the Eurostar to get you back to Paris in time for a flight home, given the ongoing problems in Calais/Coquelles. Why not fly home from London (or Amsterdam)?
Plus I agree with the others who say you have too much planned for too little time.
Daylight will be very limited at that time of the year, and the chances of seeing any mountains in Switzerland is remote, as they will almost certainly be shrouded in heavy cloud.
Buy the tickets direct from the train companies. Tickets are usually released 90 days out, so at the moment only the first few days of December are bookable.
If you drop Switzerland then London-Paris-Amsterdam-Berlin-home would make sense, or vice versa.
There is a CNL train from Feiburg to Berlin.
I would not rely on the Eurostar to get you back to Paris in time for a flight home, given the ongoing problems in Calais/Coquelles. Why not fly home from London (or Amsterdam)?
Plus I agree with the others who say you have too much planned for too little time.
Daylight will be very limited at that time of the year, and the chances of seeing any mountains in Switzerland is remote, as they will almost certainly be shrouded in heavy cloud.
Buy the tickets direct from the train companies. Tickets are usually released 90 days out, so at the moment only the first few days of December are bookable.
If you drop Switzerland then London-Paris-Amsterdam-Berlin-home would make sense, or vice versa.
Sep 4th, 2015, 02:22 AM
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I've heard capitainetrain.com gives the same prices as trips in France, but is easier for english speaking and would accept more easily foreing cards.
Anyway, for FRANCE : buy TGV's (fast trains) as far in advance as possible (tickets go on sale something like 90 days in advance) and the same applies for EUROSTAR (PAris-London).
Other trains in France have no difference in price.
As for Germany, tickets are cheaper but usually the more in advance the better.
No exp with trains in CH or Italy.
Berlin to Ams can probably be done with Easyjet (I do BerlinPAris or Berlin Bruxelles very often for something like 50 €/trip - well in advance too).
On planes : read the conditions for luggage... can impact price quite hugely.
Anyway, for FRANCE : buy TGV's (fast trains) as far in advance as possible (tickets go on sale something like 90 days in advance) and the same applies for EUROSTAR (PAris-London).
Other trains in France have no difference in price.
As for Germany, tickets are cheaper but usually the more in advance the better.
No exp with trains in CH or Italy.
Berlin to Ams can probably be done with Easyjet (I do BerlinPAris or Berlin Bruxelles very often for something like 50 €/trip - well in advance too).
On planes : read the conditions for luggage... can impact price quite hugely.
Sep 4th, 2015, 05:05 PM
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Sep 4th, 2015, 05:42 PM
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Paris, London and Berlin require a minimum of 4-5 days PLUS travel time to and from, IMO. Drop one of these, and the other destinations become more feasible. Berlin really is a long way off - and might be candidate #1 for elimination for that reason; much easier to travel Freiburg - Amsterdam, possibly breaking the trip with a short stop on the Rhine... there are some WW II sites there, in Cologne and just to the south in Remagen, if WW II is an important element.
Remagen: The supports for the former "Bridge at Remagen" now house a museum that chronicles the battle there:
http://www.bruecke-remagen.de/index_en.htm
Cologne's Nazi Documentation Center in the former Gestapo prison: http://www.museenkoeln.de/ns-dokumen...315.aspx?s=315
Other sights:
Cologne Cathedral (right next to Cologne station) - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...706_7_8%29.jpg
Marksburg Castle (tour) south of Remagen - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ubach_2012.jpg
Remagen: The supports for the former "Bridge at Remagen" now house a museum that chronicles the battle there:
http://www.bruecke-remagen.de/index_en.htm
Cologne's Nazi Documentation Center in the former Gestapo prison: http://www.museenkoeln.de/ns-dokumen...315.aspx?s=315
Other sights:
Cologne Cathedral (right next to Cologne station) - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...706_7_8%29.jpg
Marksburg Castle (tour) south of Remagen - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ubach_2012.jpg
Sep 5th, 2015, 09:19 AM
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Agree you are trying to stuff too many places into too little time, esp given the very short days and the fact that in Switz mountain views are often non-existent at that time of year. (Of course you can do winter sports from higher in the mountains, but the places you list are in the valleys and that doesn't seem to be what you are looking for.)
Definitely do multi-jaw tickets to and from europe (called multi-destination on airline sites) to avoid wasting a whole day getting back to your starting point. And there don;t seem to be overnight trains - no changes with sleeper cars) for the combos you want. IMHO sitting in a chair all night and changing trains 2 or 3 times is just a dreadful way to have to spend a night.
If it were me I would condense the Swiss section of the trip to what you MUST see - since I think the other places are all much better suited for winter travel.
On the off chance that you are thinking of winter sports the places you have picked are not ski bases - where in Dec hotels often require you to spend a week anyway.
(Caveat: I used to have a client in Basel and have been to Switz numerous times on business - at all times of year - and winter is not fun unless you are skiing, although we love it for vacations in warmer weather.)
Definitely do multi-jaw tickets to and from europe (called multi-destination on airline sites) to avoid wasting a whole day getting back to your starting point. And there don;t seem to be overnight trains - no changes with sleeper cars) for the combos you want. IMHO sitting in a chair all night and changing trains 2 or 3 times is just a dreadful way to have to spend a night.
If it were me I would condense the Swiss section of the trip to what you MUST see - since I think the other places are all much better suited for winter travel.
On the off chance that you are thinking of winter sports the places you have picked are not ski bases - where in Dec hotels often require you to spend a week anyway.
(Caveat: I used to have a client in Basel and have been to Switz numerous times on business - at all times of year - and winter is not fun unless you are skiing, although we love it for vacations in warmer weather.)
Sep 7th, 2015, 04:00 AM
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Hi Dave
Our last trip to Europe included a lot of train travel which we loved.
I investigated buying a pass but couldn't find one that was worth it as the savings with buying early were great.
This site might help you work out what might work for your trip.
https://www.ricksteves.com/travel-ti...rtation/trains
There are usually many people on this site that can give you great advice on the type of pass that would work best for you.
I found the sites for each of the different countries was best as we bought the tickets in advance (90 days prior) on the following websites:
www.bahn.com Germany, Austria
www.oebb.at/en Switzerland
en.voyages-sncf.com/en/ France
We travelled 1st class on any of the longer journeys - more than 2 hours - as we felt it was simpler with luggage and having a reserved seat. These carriages are not as crowded and buying in advance makes it cheaper than 2nd class booked later.
Our last trip to Europe included a lot of train travel which we loved.
I investigated buying a pass but couldn't find one that was worth it as the savings with buying early were great.
This site might help you work out what might work for your trip.
https://www.ricksteves.com/travel-ti...rtation/trains
There are usually many people on this site that can give you great advice on the type of pass that would work best for you.
I found the sites for each of the different countries was best as we bought the tickets in advance (90 days prior) on the following websites:
www.bahn.com Germany, Austria
www.oebb.at/en Switzerland
en.voyages-sncf.com/en/ France
We travelled 1st class on any of the longer journeys - more than 2 hours - as we felt it was simpler with luggage and having a reserved seat. These carriages are not as crowded and buying in advance makes it cheaper than 2nd class booked later.
Sep 7th, 2015, 05:21 AM
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Yes trains are fantastic - check www.seat61.com; www.ricksteves.com and www.budgeteuropetravel.com for lots on planning a European rail sojourn.
a Swiss Pass would no doubt be IMO a good deal for you but no other pass - www.swisstravelsystem.com for lots on Swiss trains. There are marginal discounts for buying in stone early in Switzerland and none on many trains - other countries yes buy really early and then put up with a non-changeable non-refundable ticket you can save tons.
a Swiss Pass would no doubt be IMO a good deal for you but no other pass - www.swisstravelsystem.com for lots on Swiss trains. There are marginal discounts for buying in stone early in Switzerland and none on many trains - other countries yes buy really early and then put up with a non-changeable non-refundable ticket you can save tons.
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