Switzerland and Germany

Hi suzy101,

Yes, you can easily see Mt. Pilatus or Mt. Titlis from Luzern. However, going to the Jungfraujoch will entail about five hours of transport in each direction, so that's 10 hours inside a closed-up, moving box. With so little time in Switzerland, I truly wouldn't waste it doing that! There is so much to see and do in Luzern (stroll the old town, take a lake cruise, visit lakeside villages, walk around the lakes, etc) that it would be a real shame to waste a day simply in transit.

In addition, even if it is clear at the Jungfraujoch when you leave Luzern, there's no telling what the weather will be like when you finally arrive at the Jungfraujoch; you may have spent a full day and a lot of money to stand inside a cloud!

If you feel that you absolutely must see the Jungfraujoch, then your best bet will be to spend at least one night nearby -- Thun is close enough, or ugly (imo) Interlaken or Lauterbrunnen.

Similarly, the Glacier Express is far from Luzern. It is an 8-hour train ride that runs between Zermatt in the southwest to St. Moritz in the southeast, and you have to get to/from the beginning/end of the thing. Truly best if you postpoine this for another trip.

You can see all the train schedules at the Swiss rail site

www.rail.ch

Have fun as you plan!

s

Hi Suzy,
I agree that a trip to the Jungfraujoch is not necessary
to experience a glorious mountaintop. Titlis (via Engelberg) or Mt. Pilatus from Lucerne are both wonderful trips.
Re: trains from Zuerich to Berlin--8 hours on the FAST (ICE) train with one change in either Hannover or Basel...might be more time-effective to just fly.
You'll need the first day just to get over jet-lag and begin to explore the city, a whole day to get to either of the mountains that you mention. The third day could be spent visiting Zuerich itself (beautiful Fraumunster and Grossmunster windows, tons of museums, riverside cafes for people-watching, fancy chocolate stores (Teuschers and Sprungli come to mind!), circuit boat rides on Lake Zuerich, or a trip up to the local mountain Uetliberg with a picnic lunch and amazing views, etc etc).
Or explore a smaller town like Rapperswil (castle above town, deer park, rose gardens, Capuchin monastery, lakeside cafes), or Zug (famous for its delish cherry cake).
So many options, so little time! Stay "local" and make the most of it!

Are you wed to Lucerne, which though a nice nice town on a nice nice lake is not perhaps the glacier-girdled soaring Alpine peaks picture of Switzerland etched in your minds' eyes perhaps. I would suggest spending the whole 3-4 days in the fantastic Jungfrau Region - to me the literal and figurative highpoint of Switzerland, where from your hotel balcony you need to drink a sip of booze to get intoxicated by the views of nearby towering cliffs and soaring ice-bound peaks and lovely cow-strewn valleys stretching for miles in all directions.

The Glacier Express is way of the way and IMO is not nearly the most scenic train in Switzerland though it is the most hyped and publicized.

Anyway taking trains is great - trains up Mt Pilatus in Lucerne and nearby Engelberg are thrilling (Pillatus however suffers also from often being clouded or fogged in - I've been in Lucerne many times and rarely has Pilatus been clear. But in Lucerne (or in the Jungfrau Region) be sure to take rides on the idyllic lakes hemmed in by tall Alps - for lots of great info on trains, lake boats, aerial cable ways, etc I always spotlight these fantastic sites - www.swisstravelsystem.com; www.ricksteves.com and www.budgeteuropetravel.com - and if traveling around in a 4-day period investigate the 4-consecutive-day Swiss Pass.

Thank you for the replies. I really appreciate it. So, the glacier exoress is not a possiblity? What if we stay another day in Switzerland, and just stay in Berlin 1 day. I booked this trip in a hurry, I did not realise how short it is.
Your replies/suggestions are so priceless.

Hi again,

imo, you have time for *either* the Jungfrau region or the Glacier Express, but not both. To do the Glacier Express justice, you need to spend at least one night in both St. Moritz and Zermatt.

Use the rail site I posted above to see all the travel times -- and then determine if you want to spend your time in Switzerland staring at the scenery through a tv-sized window. It's much better to be outside with your feet on the mountain and truly panoramic views around you (and cowbells clinging in the distance and the sun on your face and a mountain top restaurant beckoning around the bend . . . ).

I do bet that you'll be back, so whichever one you decide to do on this trip, you can do the other on your second visit.

Have fun as you plan!

s

The scenery on the Glacier Express is not more beautiful than elsewhere in the Swiss mountains. Go to Mt. Titlis and you'll have more gorgeous views. Maybe have a look at this also:
http://www.postauto.ch/en/pag-startseite/pag-reisen-und-freizeit/pag-freizeitklick/pag-angebote/pag-gl-furka-grimsel-sustenpass-linie/pag-angebot-detail.htm

I.

Yes Mt Titlis - gloriously gurdled by ice and snow dominates the sweet Alpine village of Engelberg, which is a short about hour or less train trip from Lucerne and thus less than two hours each say from Zurich - the Alpine Wonderland you've or most have been dreaming about for ages. Frequent trains via a simple change in Lucerne.

Hi,

I agree with PalenQ, I'd stay the entire time avail. for Switzerland in the Berner Oberland. We loved our 4 nights in Wengen. The Wengen stay was our favorite of a 12 night trip which included St. Moritz, Zermatt, Appenzell and Lucerne.

The Glacier Express... I'd skip it. It takes pretty much an entire day and for me, I'd rather spend that time out in the Alps in the BO than on the train. We took it from St. Moritz to Zermatt. Spent 9 hours in transit. While the scenery was spectacular at points along the way, after a few hours, we were so lookiing forward to finally getting to Zermatt. It really doesn't fit your trip either.

Paul

I thank everyone for your replies. Please do not tire. I am still confused. I have 4 days to spend in Switzerland. And will stay in Lucerne. Should we stay in Lucerne for those 4 days or will I be able to fit something esle on our way to Berlin? Like maybe 2 full days and night si Lucerne then move somewhere else to see the take the Bernini express? Or maybe proceed to Munich and take the romantic road trip? Any suggestions?

If I understand you correctly, you are arriving in Switzerland on Saturday and leaving from Berlin 6 days later (on Friday). Driving or taking the train to Berlin will entail ca. 9 hrs of travel. If you really want to spend 3 or 4 days in Switzerland, I don't think you have time for much for anything else beyond Switzerland and Berlin. Given your time constraints, I would advise you to take an airplane to Berlin. Certainly bringing Munich or the Romantic Road into the mix will probably be too much to juggle, and leave you hustling at the end to get to Berlin for your flight, without much time to see Berlin. Unlike Munich, Berlin is a huge, sprawling city which doesn't lend itself well for a day or day-and-a-half of sightseeing.

Given your time constraints, I wonder if it might be advisable to change your open jaw to a Munich or Frankfurt departure, leaving you more time to see sights in Germany closer to Switzerland.

Well I would think taking an extra day (or two and stay in St Moritz area the whole day) to go via the Bernina Pass route from Milan to Zurich or Lucerne (not practical in one day) and then spending two days in lovely Lucerne would be a nice 4 days or go to the Jungfrau Region and spend the whole 34 days and go to Zurich for a day on the day you have to leave their by overnight train.

Note that the railway from St Moritz to Chur is a part of the Glacier Express route and one of the nicest - especially the famous Albula Loops portion, declared a UNESCO World Heritage Site for its feat of railway engineering circa 1900 - incredible series of loops into and out of tunnels.

Thank you for all the suggestions, advice. Maybe a better way is to plot my itinerary as below and if anyone can please help me out. I could have extended this trip 2 days, but I reserved out plane tickets in a hurry and I cannot change this anymore. I'm sure we will come back to this area another time, but I'm doing this for my 14 yr old son to give him a bird's eye view of this region. The reason for Berlin is the history, as he is into history so much.
Our itinerary/timetable:
June 23rd- Arrive Zurich airport, 2:30 pm Proceed to Lucerne by train. Check into Lucerne hotel.
June 24th- Go to the Lake and take transport/ steamer/ train towrds Mt Pilatus or Mt Titlis (will choose one).
June 25th-Explore Lucerne?
June 26th-Take train to explore more of other Swiss towns? Any suggestions? This could also be a day we could move out of Lucerne and proceed to other towns and spend a night. Will it be St Moritz or Lugano?
June 27th- Check-in to Berlin Hotel. I can still change this or move it to next day.
June 28th- Berlin- sightseeing
June 29th- fly out of Berlin 12:55 pm.

On our other trips to Europe in the past, what has worked for us well is to stay put in a place for at least several days in one place while taking side trips. I think we can change this and if there is a possibility of moving after 2 days in Lucerne someplace else to see the most that we can. Hope I don't tire you all. Please, I need your help. And so muc, I appreciate your comments. I'm taking them in as much and seriously.

"June 27th- Check-in to Berlin Hotel. I can still change this or move it to next day.
June 28th- Berlin- sightseeing
June 29th- fly out of Berlin 12:55 pm."

If your heart is set on Berlin, I'd stick with the itinerary you outline above, or even add a day to Berlin. Don't move your arrival forward to the next day, or else you will simply have no time there. A half-a-day of sightseeing the morning you leave is simply not feasible given the breadth of the city. The 27th will basically be a travel day, so you need to consider your likely late arrival in Berlin. A flight makes the most sense by far. It's not a matter of being satisfied getting a taste for the city, the city is so sprawling, your son will not have time to scrape the surface of the history (there is no "bird's eye view" of Berlin). It is going to take far to much energy and time to get to the city to justify perhaps 1 full day of sightseeing.

What I don't understand about your trip is the transition from Lucerne to St. Moritz/Lugano to Berlin. You wake up on the 27th in St. Moritz or Lugano and you are expecting to check into your hotel in Berlin later in the day? How are you getting to Berlin? It's a 12 hour train ride, for example, from St. Moritz. You could fly, but which airport are you going to travel to and how? This is the part of the trip that needs to be smoothed out.

A slightly more manageable itinerary would simply be to stay in Lucerne from the 23rd to the 27th and then Berlin from the 27th to the 29th, giving you time in Luzern to do some day trips to some smaller towns that you might want to see. Or do two equal halves and skip the overnight in St. Moritz/Lugano - there doesn't seem to be time for that - Luzern from 23 - 26 and Berlin from 26 - 29. Then you can get enough out of both stops.

I don't intend this as a critique of your travelling style. I am just concerned about whether you will get to see what you want to see given the time and geographic constraints.

June 26th-Take train to explore more of other Swiss towns? Any suggestions? This could also be a day we could move out of Lucerne and proceed to other towns and spend a night. Will it be St Moritz or Lugano?>

planning on doing this during day and get back to zurich at night for overnight train? St Moritz and Lugano are both a long way from Zurich - well Lugano less so since it is on a main rail line and probably only a few hours from Zurich

Even for a day I would head from Lucerne to the nearby Jungfrau Region - even a day in a place like Grindelwald will be an absolute highlight of your trip IMO - Interlaken is only a few hours from Zurich.

Thanks again for the replies. The reason why, I am being too ambitious about this trip I guess. I regretted that I did not allow more time. I surely am interested in seeing more than Lucerne and Berlin. I am hoping I could squeeze something in a day. But I would believe you all if you think it is not feasible. Where is Grindelwald and Interlaken? Is it not around Lucerne area? Thank you again.

I can sympathize with wanting to see as much as you can. The fact is that you basically have 6 full days to work with after you arrive on Saturday (Sun - Thurs). Since you probably have to take a day to travel to Berlin, you have 5 days of sightseeing available. Keep in mind that Berlin is over 900 kilometers from Lucerne. So you have to realize the time and geographic pressures, not just so you SEE as much as you can, but also ENJOY it.

Interlaken and Grindelwald are south of Lucerne and would make a lovely day trip. Rather than change hotels, I'd suggest basing yourself in Lucerne and making a day trip. That will save you some time and hassle of schlepping your bags for an overnight elsewhere, immediately before you have to travel to Berlin.

The night train to Berlin might be a good idea to maximize your time. It might be another way to buy you some additional time to see things you want to see.

To reach Interlaken from Lucerne you can take the fabled Golden Pass scenic train (or local trains over the same route) that go up and over the scenic Brunig Pass and then down to Interlaken area - takes about two hours all told - so you could from Lucerne take that train to Interlaken and experience one of Switzerland's iconic scenic train lines - put your bags in a station locker in Interlaken-Ost station and then hop on a train up to Grindelwald, in about 20 minutes emerging in an Alpine Wonderland that will match the dreamy pciture of Switzerland - that of glacier-girdled peaks and cow-strewn meadows - etched in your minds' eyes. then come back and hop the train to Zurich for the overnight train.

Thank you so much. I'm taking every advice in and and I am getting things in place now. Please do not tire with me. Thank you thank you.

I suggest Grindelwald as being one place where you can in a 360 degree view see so many awesome ice-girdled peaks as well as a very wide amphitheatre or a valley miles in circumference - can see tiny toylike trains plying the hills - a panoply of aerial cable cars

And if you want to experience higher altitudes then hop the aerial cabel car from Grindelwald to Mannlichen - then do the fabled few-mile flat and easy ridge walk to Kleine Scheidegg - with awesome views over both the Grindelwald and Lauterbrunnen valleys and of the Jungfrau - the majestic iconic jagged peak dominating the Jungfrau Region for miles around.

Mannlichen itself if very famous for its splendorous views - often called the best vista if the whole area - of both valleys and eagle eyed down over Interlaken itself, bookended between its two lakes.

For variety from Kl Schiedegg take the train down to Wengen - perhaps putz around this famous quiet car-less Alpine village with views to die for and then return to Interlaken by train via Lauterbrunnen.

That scenario would let you see and experience both the Grindelwald and Lauterbrunnen valleys - in quick day but you have so little time - I DO guarantee that this would be an absolute highlight of your trip that will stick in your mind forever!

Thanks again.
1. "...then do the fabled few-mile flat and easy ridge walk to Kleine Scheidegg - with awesome views over both the Grindelwald and Lauterbrunnen valleys and of the Jungfrau - the majestic iconic jagged peak dominating the Jungfrau Region for miles around."
We have very little resistance to walking. Will there be an alternative and be able to appreciate the beauty of the landscape on the way back?
2. I'm confused between the Swiss card and the eurail pass. Will it be wise for me to get a two country pass, since we are travelling into Germany as well? I understand that the Swiss card is good for a family with kids <16 yr old. My son is 14. I checked out the web sites, there are only descriptions of the passes, but to order, there is no straightforward item for the swiss card or saver pass etc.. Each ticket is per adult.

Swiss Pass is free for anyone under 16 traveling with a parent - must be a parent, not a grandparent, etc - called the Family Pass and kid never pays a dime, even on things that Swiss Pass only discount - Swiss Card is a different creature - I would if you strongly look at the 4-consecutive-day Swiss Pass that would cover virtually all your transportation from city trams and buses to trains and give 50% of aerial cableways like from Mannlichen.

I would certainly think a Swiss Pass and then online discount tickets for the Germany portion would be best - with a Eurail Pass many trains in Switzerland will not be covered - like to Grindelwald from Interlaken (25% off only not 100% like Swiss Pass and there is no free pass for kids - he would have to pay full adult pass price on a Saver Pass - so IMO forget any Eurailpass.