Spain & Italy - questions

Old Aug 12th, 2015, 09:32 PM
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Spain & Italy - questions

Hi! This will be the itinerary for a short trip to Spain and Italy for May 2016. I'm in the very early stages of planning, but this is what it looks like so far. 2 days Madrid, 1 day Toledo, 2 days Valencia, 4 days Barcelona, 1 day Milan, 1 day Como, 1 day Verona, 3 days Venice = 15 days total. It's only for a taste of each place.

I do think Madrid has too little time but I'm not so that interested in museums and I come across that more than anything in "to-do" lists. This is what I have
1) Royal Palace
2) Madrid Cathedral
3) Going to a flamenco restaurant
4) The Prado
5) Goya Museum

I know there is so much more to do but for now I think it would be a good introduction to the place. However, I see so many people spend several days (1 week+) in Madrid. Are there any places that absolutely unmissable for first-timers? If I find that there is enough for 2 more days that I have to see now I'll remove Valencia.

For Como, Italy, I am planning to make a day-trip from Milan. This is what my itinerary looks like for the day:
1) ~8:20 train to Varenna, spend an hour there
2) 10:23-10:35 ferry to Bellagio, spend 3 hours there, get something to eat
3) 1:30-1:46 ferry to villa Carlotta, spend an hour there
4) 2:56-2:59 ferry to villa del Balbianello, spend 2 hours there
5) 5:15-6:00 ferry to Como, snap some pics and train back to Milan.

Does this seem reasonable?
radunovic is offline  
Old Aug 12th, 2015, 11:08 PM
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Are you counting the arrival and the departure days as one day each?
It would be easier for others to understand if you state your itinerary in terms of "nights."

Counting in "days" tend to double counts the same day in two different locations and pretend as if you can travel between them in zero time. It gets clearer counting in terms of nights. It is not possible to double count night since you would stay the whole night in one place.

For example, if you leave one place at 6am and arriving at the destination at 7pm, by counting in days, it appears you have a full day for sightseeing when in fact you have no time for sightseeing on this day.
greg is offline  
Old Aug 12th, 2015, 11:26 PM
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Hard to imagine this as a holiday. To try and calm it down a little I'd suggest

Toledo, do it as a day trip from Madrid.
Drop Milan

I'd re-write this limited tour as nights rather than days.

There seem to be a bunch of new Fodorites this year who are looking at Spain/Italy as one combo. I assume there is some tourist association or book recommending it, any clues who is proposing this as a holiday?
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Old Aug 12th, 2015, 11:34 PM
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Hello,

We did a similar trip 2 years ago, spending 3 nights in Madrid, 2 in Valencia, 4 in Barcelona, 3 nights in Bellagio and 3 nights Venice.

We did all our travel by train, because it was great to sit back, relax and see the countryside, or snooze if the day before had been busy.we didn't feel as if we were wasting days travelling between destinations. My advice would be to pick the things you really want to see in each city and prebook and purchase tickets to them. This makes it abit easier to plan your time. Every large "sight" has a website you can prebook on. if you know you have an 11am slot for the Prado, you can work out if you have the time to also see the Royal Palace.Same in Barcelona, book the Sagrada Famillia ahead etc. Whatever you do, make time to just sit and have a coffee or a beer and watch the city go by. Its the best way to really feel you have visited a city or country rather than ticking everything off. Leave something for next time.....it makes you feel positive you will one day return BTW the Spanish eat very late, 10pm is not unusual so that might help if you are factoring in what you can achieve in a day.
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Old Aug 13th, 2015, 01:26 AM
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For flamenco in Madrid, I recommend either Casa Patas, Corral de la Moreria or Cardamomo. Only top of the shelf artists in all these places. Casa Patas is the best flamenco venue (and a great bar and fine restaurant outside the "flamenco room"), Corral de la Moreria often see busloads of tourists and Cardamomo is dark, small and more rock'n roll.

Casa Patas: http://www.casapatas.com/
Corral de la Moreria: http://www.corraldelamoreria.com/en/index.html
Cardamomo: http://cardamomo.es/

And you have of course famous old timer Villa Rosa right on Plaza Santa Ana: http://www.tablaoflamencovillarosa.com/es/

You should be aware that May is time of the the San Isidro festival (the city's patron Saint), the greatest annual festival in Madrid. A good reason to spend some extra days in a fabulous city. http://www.spain.info/en/reportajes/...en_madrid.html

Could give you tons of tips about Barcelona. Four days here will fly. Perhaps make a reservation at Tickets? Tapas from heaven, fun and very affordable for what you get. Now ranked among the 50 best restaurants in the world. Had a thirteen tapas (some of them of course only a small taste) lunch here a couple of months ago with some beers for 70€ pp. Payed some 80-85€ pp two years ago for a 17 tapas dinner with more than enough cava. The best way is to tell your waiter what kind of food you like and how much you would spend, and then leave it up to the kitchen. You must make a reservation at midnight Barcelona time 60 days before your visit. Ten mins after midnight all tables are normally gone.
http://www.barcelonabook.com/tickets...estaurant.html
http://www.theworlds50best.com/list/...inners/Tickets
kimhe is offline  
Old Aug 13th, 2015, 04:41 AM
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Whew!

>>1) ~8:20 train to Varenna, spend an hour there>2) 10:23-10:35 ferry to Bellagio, spend 3 hours there, get something to eat>3) 1:30-1:46 ferry to villa Carlotta, spend an hour there>4) 2:56-2:59 ferry to villa del Balbianello, spend 2 hours there>5) 5:15-6:00 ferry to Como, snap some pics and train back to Milan.
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Old Aug 13th, 2015, 09:48 AM
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It's 15 full days, it's 2 weeks vacation + 1 extra holiday in Canada (Victoria Day). I didn't count the day of arrival because there's a good chance it will be late afternoon/evening time as we will board our flight pretty late (at least 4 hours after a regular work day - ie. ~9/10 PM). And the day of departure will be early morning so I didn’t count that day either.

In terms of nights...
Madrid (4 nights) w/Toledo
Valencia (2 nights)
Barcelona (4 nights)
Milan (2 nights) w/ Como
Verona (0 nights) - bags will stay at station while we visit and then onto Venice
Venice (4 nights)

I’m glad to know that the trip was manageable Hilmel! I feel overwhelmed with seeing museums and churches constantly in past trips, so that’s why I know that even art I’ll only be able to see to a certain limit. We will book in advance as much as we can!

Thanks for all the recommendations kimhe! I’m going with a vegetarian friend so “Cardamomo” seems like the best choice as it has a vegetarian menu!

Thanks for the Barcelona tips as well! I’m a bit confused with what I’ve come across when it comes to tapas and siesta and other Spanish things…from what I’ve read, Tapas kitchens are open from 1:00 PM to 4:00 PM but I’ve also heard that siesta is Barcelona is from 2-5. What time did you have lunch? I’ve also read some sites and blogs that say you sit down at a restaurant as you would regularly do and order tapas 1-2 at a time while the waiter runs the tab. Other places are saying you have tapas at the bar, and some show tapas to be something more similar to open buffets where you pick tapas dishes and then pay based on sticks. Are all of these true?

I don’t really find Varenna to be very big or beautiful, people say it’s about a 11 minute walk to villa Monastero. We are mainly going there for that and entry to Bellagio.

Is 3 hours in Bellagio really not that enough? In google maps it shows it takes about 11 minutes to get to get to La Punta. After lunch we only want to wander around that area where all the restaurants and shops are.

We aren’t in a rush to get back to Milan, so would spending 2 hours in villa Carlotta be enough? Villa del Balbianello closes at 6:00 PM, so around that time we can get the ferry to Como and just get the next train out to Milan.
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Old Aug 13th, 2015, 10:03 AM
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Oh the Como to Milan trains are from the hour:16, so 6:16PM or 7:16PM trains are the ones we'd catch. If we reach Como around 7:05 PM, we might have to wait longer since I doubt we'd make the connection, so we could just grab some dinner near the station and wait for the 8:16 PM train to Nord Cadorna.
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Old Aug 14th, 2015, 03:06 AM
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I think your plan for a day trip to Lago di Como is just fine. Plus, you can skip it if the weather isn't nice. The most memorable view is from the ferry as you cross from Varenna to Bellagio, so don't just stay in Varenna. Three hours in Bellagio is plenty unless you are going shopping for an overpriced purse. Enjoy your lunch. I've never been to the villas, so can't comment.
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Old Aug 14th, 2015, 03:10 AM
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Also, I live in Italy and have many friends who come to visit me after being in Spain. I also have many Italian friends who visit Spain for a weekend. The air connections are very good and cheap, and in some ways it is easier to combine Spain and Italy then it is France + Italy or Greece + Italy. So it's a great combination and it is interesting to visit 2 mediterranean countries that were both colonies of Greece and use olive oil in their cooking and share many of the same ideas, and yet they are very different places. So have a wonderful time.
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Old Aug 14th, 2015, 05:00 AM
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<I’m a bit confused with what I’ve come across when it comes to tapas and siesta and other Spanish things…from what I’ve read>

Restaurants are normally open from 1pm to 4-5 pm for lunch and from 8-9pm to about 11pm for dinner. Most people in Spain have their main meal of the day at lunch-time, that is from about 1.30-2pm. Then most restaurants offer a usually great value three course meal with drinks included for some 9-15€ (more expensive in exclusive restaurants, but often fabulous deals here as well).

Tapas bars are open from about 1pm to 4pm and then again from about 7 to 11 in the night. Traditionally tapas is eaten standing in the bar with a glass in hand. On a typical tapas round, a gruop of friends go from tapas bar to tapas bar and have one tapa and one glass in each place. This is not so normal in Barcelona (but almost everywhere else), at least not in the center of town. Here tapas are often served as a sit down meal where you order from a menu (tapas purists will never enter such a place ;-)... The buffet/sticks thing is the Barcelona variant of the fabulous Basque pintxos. The Basque country is the culinary heartland of Spain, and the pintxo (stick) thing has spread across the country. But few pintxos bars in Barcelona could compare to the brillant places all over the Basque country (where one would never count the sticks, everything is based on trust and experience). Much on display and ready to pick in pintxos bars, but the most interesting pintxos are often the hot ones made directly on order.

Traditionally the siesta is from about 1.30 to 5 when people have lunch. Many shops, at least outside the most touristy areas, are then closed and open again from 5 to 8-9pm. Then people go out for dinner after 9pm. But in central Barcelona many stores, shops, tapas bars and restaurants stay open all day until about midnight or later.

In the local atmosphere Poble Sec district you can go for a traditional tapas round: http://www.barcelonaturisme.com/wv3/...to-bodega.html

Tapeo is my favourite tapas bar in Barcelona from the last visit a couple of months ago. Here you sit in the bar and order from a menu (to make the confusion total): http://www.tapeoborn.cat/

The Basque Cultural center Euskal Etxea is 20 meters from Tapeo and serves fine pintxos (although with the stick system): http://www.euskaletxeataberna.com/en...rra-de-pintxos

These are my favourite local feel and basic lunch restaurants in Barcelona.
Navia: http://www.tripadvisor.com/Restauran...Catalonia.html
L'Aribau: http://www.tripadvisor.com/Restauran...Catalonia.html

And you'll get bargain gourmet food at Somodo. Four course lunch with wine and coffee incl at 18,50€, and nine course special menu at night for 35€ (wine not incl): http://www.somodo.es/english/
http://www.tripadvisor.com/Restauran...Catalonia.html
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Old Aug 17th, 2015, 11:06 AM
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Thanks sandralist! In Bellagio we’d rather look for some snack bar and grab something to eat there than sit down at a restaurant. Do you know if there’s anything like that around there in the main area? Or should we pack something?

Thank you for all the clarifications, kimhe! That really helps so that we don’t end up trying to eat lunch/dinner earlier than they normally do in Spain. I was told that the siesta was a “nap” time so it’s good to know the restaurants are actually going to be open then for lunch. We’d probably go to tapas bars as substitutes for sit down dinners

Thanks for all the restaurant recommendations! Tapeo’s tapas menu looks amazing! The menus look pretty cheap for L’Aribau and Somodo! We don’t have a very big budget, so this will definitely help! Thanks!
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