Rome, Florence, Venice and the Veneto: tedgale Trip Report

Sounds like a wonderful trip.
Did you rent the Rome apartment through Capital?
I am considering renting one of their apartments.
What was your experience?
Thanks.

Hi tegale - What a great start! Looking forward to the details!

1. Rome capital apartments were indeed the rental agent.

2. Last year the apartment was handled by Rental in Rome and we paid a LOT more for it.

3. There were no surprises with this rental as we knew the apartment and knew the owners live in the building -- usually a source of reassurance to me.

4. The rental contract was straightforward. The only thing I did not like was the agency's suggestion that we fix a time for arrival but then "call their rep upon our arrival at Fiumicino."

Yeah, well we know what that means in Italy: Until you make the call from the airport, you have no rendezvous.

BTW, I am going into all this because I intend to write a little meditation on Italians + cellphones, later on this thread.

5. My response was to explain in an email that I had no cell phone but that I would arrive at the apartment at 2 pm.

Having no reply from them, I called their rep Consolata from Canada and asked her to meet us at the apartment at 2 pm. I said I would buy a phone card and call her if there was any problem or change of plan.

We arrived early at the apartment. Consolata did not show up at 2 pm and I went in search of that rarest of Roman commodities, a public payphone. I got her at 2:15 or so -- just as she was arriving at the apartment.

I am not sure she would have been more prompt undr any scenario.

That was the only glitch in our rental.

6. Everything about the apartment itself was fine and I would rent it again any day.

BTW if you are wondering why I would obsess about a delay of 15 minutes or so: Well, the ONLY time we could get for the Palazzo Farnese tour was 3 pm on the day of our arrival.

So the minutes ticked by I started fretting about not being able to get to the Piazza in time. Plus it is kinda gross standing out on the pavement with all your luggage. You look and feel like a real dork.

Yes, I know that feeling, standing out in front of your apartment building, you don't know if you're in the right place (doesn't apply in this case, but still...), you aren't sure if and when the apartment agent will show up. So far, it has always worked out OK, but there's just that moment of anxiety.

Sounds like a great trip. Makes me want to go back to Rome.

Thanks for the detailed reply. My prior rentals were in France and I actually went to the agency's office which were only blocks away from the apartment.

"Plus it is kinda gross standing out on the pavement with all your luggage. You look and feel like a real dork."

Ah yes, we had that pleasure Rue des Archives. I felt dorkish indeed.

Welcome back, tedgale; I'm looking forward to another of your pointed but whimsical trip reports.

Anselm

tedgale,

I can't wait to hear more! Isn't it the little, charming surprises that you remember most? Personally, I've always wanted to visit the Ferragamo Museum! One of the things I would go back to Florence for.

Do continue!

what a great report! Thanks for all the highlights. It makes it so easy to absorb.

Wonderful beginning, please continue. Your way of describing Italy's treasures makes me want to go to there right now.

So now we need details...lots of details!

tedgale,

Which day of the week did you take the Palais Farnese tour, and in which language? I see on the embassy's website <<Le lundi et le jeudi, à 15h, 16h et 17h (durée : 50 min.) Trois visites en français et trois visites en italien par semaine>> but it doesn't say which day/time is which language.

After a while, we got tired of eating in restaurants, however pleasant the food and atmosphere. Indeed, we ate in our apartments each night in Venice - given the city's reputation for over-priced and mediocre food and our lack of pep in the evening.

But at the outset, we dined out almost every night. Never anywhere too fancy: we were looking for reliable, authentic, non-touristy spots that gave good value.

Here are a short account of those Rome meals:

1. La Rampa, Rampa Mignanelli: I have always recommended this place and have eaten there often but this time it was a bit flat.

The big selling point is their antipasto misto buffet: 10 E for a single plate but WHAT a plate. Mine was heaped high with seafood, quail, bocconcini, grilled and marinated vegetables, sformata (flan).

Seconds (Straccetti di manzo w. rucola; polenta paesana w. sausages and spare ribs) were rather plain and, frankly, dull. Service, as usual, was adequate but impersonal. C+.

2. Osteria del Pegno, vic. di Montevecchio: Traditional dishes with a twist. Generally full, so it is best to reserve. The owner is a kinetic, larger-than-life character who sometimes stands in the street urging people into his restaurant. That suggests a tourist trap -- which this definitely is not. Half locals; half well-behaved tourists with LOW voices, thank God.

Evening #1: Risotto with beet cream and pecorino + abbacchio al forno w. roasted potatoes; Tagliatelle with carciofi and speck + v. rare tagliata di manzo w. shoestring potatoes. A-. (could be A but I don't like shoestring potatoes)

Evening #2: Spaghetti all carbonara + abbacchio al forno again; piatto misto di salumi w. roast eggplant and zucchini + maiolino di latte (suckling pig) w. roast potatoes. A.

3. Buca di Ripetta, via di Ripetta: Disappointing evening in a restaurant whose food was very good but whose staff seemed to be out of control and lacking all direction. We heard shouting -- or maybe laughing -- from the kitchen. They were out of the wine we ordered. They were out of the ossubuco I ordered. And dear R was knocked sideways by a blow to the head from a waiter's elbow. As compensation, he brought a glass of limoncello at the end of the meal.

One glass, as only one of us had been struck.

Dumb, dumb, dumb! C-.

FWIW, we ate: Carpaccio di bresaola w. rucola and pecorino Romano + Coda di vitello (ox tail); seafood antipasto "5 stelle" -- sections of octopus, squid in tomato cream sauce, shrimp satays w. mayonnaise, salmon timbale + Pappardelle w. cozze (mussels) and pecorino.

4. Al Portico, via del Portico d'Ottavia: Crowded, no frills student and family restaurant where we ate twice. (Once was a simple lunch of bresaola salads and huge, delicious pizzas)

By day, I found the Ghetto area a dirty, charmless warren thronging with foreign and Italian students -- only one cut above the general sordor of the streets flanking nearby Campo de' Fiori. By night, the magic of its Roman roots (the Teatro Marcello, the Portico d'Ottavia) re-emerges and it becomes one of my favourite spots in Rome.

One evening we ate: Carciofi alla giudea + Ossobuco; Fettuccine ai funghi + Abacchio alla scottadito. A for authenticity.

Mlle Fifi: We took the tour in French on Thursday at 3 pm. That was the only spot available, during the week of our visit. We booked about 3 weeks in advance.

Tedgale: this is great stuff, full of all kinds of unwritten flavor, and great tips for Italy lovers.
I know it's hard to find the time, but please keep it coming, for us armchair travelers (just for now, I hope!) Thanks.

Ah, thank goodness I looked at this. I realize I have recommended Osteria della Pegna to someone when of course I meant Osteria del Pegno. Glad to hear it's still good and getting better. We did not make it to dine there our last trip (dance card was full) but now I regret it.

I love Santo Spirito and Frari too.

Looking forward to photos!

And pardon me, how rude I am to forget: Thank you for taking the time to write a report.

Tedgale, Love your report...it is, if I may say so, very 'you'. (we met at the TO GTG). I am SO very pleased that you have provided precise, foodie details...this is so useful.

Please fill us in on your choice of place to stay in Venice and what you did for food when you were there: did you cook ingredients from local shops?or is great Venetian take-out from somewhere other than the university area? how doable was this from that locale?

LJ: I will write a fuller account of Venice when I get through Rome and Florence but will anticipate that with a few details about Venice and food:

We rented an apartment called Fegalliano: veniceapartments.org/html/fegalliano.html

The building backs onto Piazzale Roma, hence the apartment is in a most unconventional location. But it is hugely convenient and actually quite a charming spot. I loved to watch the workers streaming to the vaporetto stop in the morning and after work.

The windows of the apartment all look away from Piazzale Roma -- you would never guess there are cars nearby. Our view, in fact, was of the Grand Canal, the Papodopoli gardens and the new 4th bridge over the Canal.

About 100 or 150 feet away was an excellent Co-Op supermarket -- one of those places fitted into 2 or more buildings, so that once you enter, it spreads out more and more.

Not great for baked goods but otherwise very well supplied -- wine, cheeses, fruits and vegetables, seafood and fish, meats, including some prepared items.

Of the latter, we liked the prepared spiedini, ie kebabs of mixed pork, beef, sausage. Perhaps you can get seafood ones, too. I am also a sucker for bresaola and salumi, which eke out a salad and make it almost a full meal.

Supplying a food store is a challenge in most parts of Venice, so the Piazzale Roma location is a great boon for the Co-Op.

On a previous trip, we shopped at the Billa supermarket, by the San Basilio vaporetto stop, looking across to Giudecca and the Molino Stucky development.

I wondered how they supplied that large and bustling place and on this trip I found out. A barge -- essentially a floating flatbed -- brings 2 huge trucks to the edge of the fondamenta, near the Billa entrance, and then someone unloads the trucks. When they are unloaded, the barge turns and takes the trucks home.

These are BIG trucks. It appears this operation happens daily -- I saw it 2 days running. I have great photos of the supply operation!

Re takeout: We did not try that but our one indulgence -- and I am abashed to admit this, as I have sneered at it when mentioned by others -- was the occasional gelato.

The place for gelato artigianale (home-made gelato) is just on the edge of Campo S.ta Margherita. When I say on the edge, I mean you head out of the Campo in the direction of the Accademia. It is among the best priced and very good.

I repeat, I do not eat sweets at home and am generally censorious of non-nutritive foods ....but Venice and this place overwhelmed my resolve.

I want to spend some time later today exploring the Italian character, as I observed it and as it has been explained to me.

Before I allow myself to pontificate -- or make a fool of myself with vapid generalizations -- I will supply some more hard facts about our visit in Rome.

Rome has, if anything, too many churches. It is hard to know what to exclude and which to visit. Degas has a very good Fodor's thread on a walking tour of southern Rome churches. I cannot hope to equal its erudition or completeness. However, I thought it would be useful to give first-time visitors a short list of my Top 10.

Omitted from the list are the "must sees": St Peter's, of course, plus: the Pantheon, San Giovanni in Laterano, Santa Maria Maggiore and, one rung below these on the ladder, San Pietro in Vincoli. A visit to Rome is incomplete without visiting all 5.

My Top 10, in no particular order:

1. Santa Maria del Popolo, in P.zza del Popolo: Go for the 2 Caravaggios in the Cerasi chapel, plus a Pinturicchio fresco, Raphael's design for the mosaics and more. A glorious mix of northern (Lombard) and southern taste.

2. San Luigi dei Francesi, v. S.ta Giovanna d'Arco, just E of P.zza Navona: The Contarelli chapel has Caravaggio's paintings of the life of St. Mark -- reason enough for a visit.

3. Santa Maria in Cosmedin, Piazza Bocca della Verita: A "paleo-Christian" church best known for housing the Bocca della Verita, which probably started life as a sewer grate. Hundreds of tourists, mainly Japanese, pose in the loggia with their hand in the Mouth of Truth. How many ever go inside to view this 6th century church? -- small, simple, redolent of "the tone of time", to use Henry James' favourite expression.

4. Chapel of Palazzo Massimo alle Colonne, Corso V. Emmanuele: I include this because most people have never heard of it, let alone seen it. I myself have not seen it -- because I could not get in, on the one day a year (March 16, 7 am - 12 noon) when this family chapel is open to the public. The crowd, mostly Romans, spilled out in the Corso. People were admitted in ones and twos, as others exited. We gave up this time but will come at 7 am if we ever get another chance.

5. San Carlo alle 4 Fontane, via delle 4 Fontane: A tiny church on a small, oddly-shaped plot. Developing the site took all Borromini's ingenuity. His solution is so neat, so "cute" and lovable that the church is known by the diminutive "San Carlino". High, white, with a magnificent dome, it is all verticality, since width and depth were limited. Explore too the high, white cloister beside it and the low, white crypt beneath it. You'll probably have the space all to yourself, BTW.

6. Sant' Andrea al Quirinale, via del Quirinale: 3 minutes' walk from San Carlino, this Bernini church was built under constraints equal to those of Borromini -- an impossibly shallow, wide site. Bernini was equally ingenious in his design for the Jesuits but where Borromini was austere, Bernini was lavish. The gilded dome, complete with putti and fully rendered gilded figures, is eye-popping in its splendour. Through a door and up some stairs are the rooms of a 16th C. Polish saint, whose deathbed figure is eerily rendered in marble. Many Poles visit this creepy, desolate shrine.

7. Sant' Antonio dei Portoghesi, via dei Portoghesi, near P.zza Navona: An eccentric personal choice, because I dropped into it so often that I think of it as "mine". It is the Portuguese church in Rome, a smallish structure of the 1630s, largely unchanged since its construction. Every square inch is decorated -- much with precious marble and gilding. It has been called "a masterpiece of the monochromatic middle Baroque". You will likely be alone in this church, too.

8. and 9. Santa Cecilia and Santa Maria in Trastevere: I lump these two together because if you are going to Trastevere you will likely want to see both.

Santa Cecilia stands at one end of a large, walled courtyard -- really a garden -- that is an oasis in the hubbub of gritty Trastevere. The church has 3rd C. foundations hidden behind an 18th C. facade. Deep below all that is, reputedly, the even-earlier home of the saint herself. For a couple of Euros you can descend to the crypt and see the now-excavated remains of a Roman house, later converted to commercial premises, including ancient brick-lined storage bins for grain. Upstairs: Bits of Roman carving in the loggia, medieval fresco and glorious Renaissance trompe l'oeil along the side walls. The central portions of the church have the decor of a gilded Viennese ballroom, right down to the spindly gold chairs.

Santa Maria, by contrast, stands squarely in one corner of Trastevere's most popular square, which bears its name. It is dark, where Santa Cecilia is bright, and huge, where Santa Cecilia is intimate. It is WAY more solemn. The mismatched columns of the nave were recycled from a Roman temple. The extensive medieval mosaics are in a remarkable state of preservation. Later additions of further mosaics, gilded stucco and a richly embossed wooden ceiling have only increased its magnificence.

10. San Clemente, via Labicana: Yeah, hardly a surprise -- but how could I omit this little ancient gem, with its mismatched, patched-together quality; its heaving floors and crooked walls; and its layer upon layer of history?

I turned to Wikipedia for a concise and authoritative description:

"Archaeologically speaking it is a three-tiered complex of buildings on the site, the lowermost notable as being an archaeological record of a first century insula belonging to T. Flavius Clemens; superposed on it is a second century Roman pagan temple dedicated to Mithras. On the foundations of the fourth-century Christian church is the current one built just before the year 1100 during the height of the Middle Ages."

Many of the CHURCHES are illustrated in this collection of photos of ROME:

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2020374&id=1126123095&l=6e400a855b

I have also created an album of the PLACES WE STAYED, which illustrates better than my words the charms of the apartments and B&Bs identified above:

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2020368&id=1126123095&l=840faa5003

Tedgale: many thanks for useful detail re: Venice food sources. I think this will assist DH and me in next trip arrangements.

Now my promised personal observations and reflections. Apologies in advance to anyone offended by generalizations. Not hoping to start a debate, just to complete the record of my own thoughts about Italy:

On this trip, R said “Here is the difference between bad behaviour in France and bad behaviour in Italy.

“In France they say That’s not MY problem. In Italy they say But that doesn’t mean ME.

“The difference is: The first lacks empathy for fellow citizens as individuals; the second lacks respect for the civic collective and its needs."

The latter I can corroborate, from personal observation on this trip.

No smoking? That doesn’t mean me.
One-way street? That doesn’t mean me.
Taxable income? That doesn’t mean me (according to newspapers and an interesting show I saw on RAI TV, where builders were secretly videotaped explaining to buyers how much of the house's selling price they'd need in unmarked bills).

I started thinking about this attitude. It's the very antithesis of Canada, where obedience is the norm, collectivism is central to our culture and law....and renegades of all sorts are unwelcome.

This attitude could lead to chaos, if it were not held in check by an alternative set of allegiances, supported by a profound sense of duty.

It seems to me that those allegiances begin with family and spread outward – to community, region, political party and, more faintly nowadays, to the Church.

(The other evening, I heard Berlusconi refer to Italy as “a Christian country”. Here in Canada, you’d be tarred and feathered for that phrase. Even in the God-fearin’ USA, you could not say that!)

My Milanese friend Roberto tells me that every Italian has, in fact, two personalities.

One is the “egoista” – the person who thinks only of himself and his own needs. Roberto complains a lot of the “menefreghismo” (Don’t-give-a-damn-ism) of Italian society. I always assumed this term meant political alienation or apathy. He explained it was something more like a selfish indifference to the collective welfare, as long as one was OK oneself. Perhaps the closest equivalent in English is the British expression “I’m alright, Jack”.

The other personality is the “conformista”, who relishes structure, hierarchy and stability. Roberto maintains that the “conformist” trend in Italian life has held back economic transformation (and kept Berlusconi in power).

He has just spent 6 months in Silicon Valley, interviewing Italian expatriates from the IT sector for a book. Some are recent arrivals, some have worked in the US for 40 years. Uniformly, they spoke of their former bosses’ suspicion of the unfamiliar; the deadening effect on innovation of Italian corporate hierarchy and nepotism; the risk-aversion of Italian investors (and the un-collaborative culture of the Italian workplace, particularly where the ideas to be shared might have commercial value).

It may be that the release-valve from all this corporate, political and bureaucratic weight is selfish behaviour in public – and the petty larcenies that are such a marked feature of Italian life (an estimated 30-40 percent of personal income unreported to the tax collectors, as I read the other day).

Let me turn to what I've observed of the positive, countervailing side of the Italian character: Loyalty, constancy, intense engagement with friends and family – of a kind unfamiliar to us Canadian males.

In other words: Reliance on – and faith in – the private, the concrete and the personal, rather than the public, the abstract and the collective.

When we got together last weekend with Roberto and his wife, at their country place near Bergamo and later at their Milan apartment, he treated me like a brother. Immediately, we began sharing new ideas and filling in the gaps, as though no time had passed since our last meeting.

“Since our last meeting”. That would be…. August, 1978. Until I found him a few months ago via the Internet, Roberto and I had not met or spoken for almost 31 years.

But once you are admitted to the circle of friendship in Italy, you always have a place there, however long the absence. It was perfectly natural to him – as it could never be to a North American – that we should just take up where we had left off. I think it never occurred to him to be emotionally cautious, to protect his feelings against disappointment or the risk of incompatibility.

We didn’t even reminisce about the past. We just got on with our friendship.

There, I just wanted to tell you that, as part of my account of this recent trip.

Hope I do not start a big debate on the Italian character. I'm not Luigi Barzini -- I know that. If anyone wants to discuss, we can go to the Lounge.

I'll get back to facts and trip details in my next post(s).

Now my promised personal observations and reflections. Apologies in advance to anyone offended by generalizations. Not hoping to start a debate, just to complete the record of my own thoughts about Italy:

Not quite sure how my opening para. re-appeared at the end of my post!!

Some technical glitch always deflates my high-flown rhetoric!!

Ted...

So glad I found your report. I haven't finished reading through it yet, but it will make for an enjoyable read tonight...maybe I'll even bust out my bottle of prosecco to have while reading!

Fascinating, grazie.

Have we had enough about Rome? Guess I can move on to Florence and Venice now....though after my "Top 20", I am not sure how much more new stuff there is to relate.

Just loving this report. I've just had dinner, but reading about your meals makes me hungry again. <sotto voce> Please, sir, could we have some more?

A few final notes before I finish with Rome:

(Increasingly I am thinking of this as a Rome report, because I really do not have many insights about Florence or Venice, cities that others have covered my better than I could)

1. Porta Portese market: Sunday mornings. I was told you can find anything there, from used clothing to antiques. Well, no. It is a market for the poor and the range of items offered is narrow: clothing + food.

I was in a mood, recession-induced, to see how real people live, so the market interested me. If you want to shop, rather than gawk, there is not much here for us middle-class shoppers.

2. Hidden neighbourhoods: Rome's undulating topography + the large roads that cut off certain streets = lots of hidden neighbourhoods. My favourites were:

Via dei Foraggi, via dei Fienili -- cut off by the Capitoline, the Palatine, Circo Massimo and the via Petroselli. Cobblestoned streets, many low 2-3 storey houses. I noted one smart new cafe-restaurant. I think it's getting gentrified. You can still feel you are 100 miles from anywhere, though.

All the streets NE of the via dei Fori Imperiali, both left and right of the via Cavour: Salita del Grillo, via Baccina, via Frangipani and that dodgy area just above the Colosseo metro station. A "real" and often gritty neighbourhood, just a stone's throw away from the most touristed stretch of Rome.

Via Giulia to the Tiber: I Like every street and alley running between the via Giulia and the noisy Lungotevere. Even the Lungotevere has charm: It has cars, which one ignores, but no ambling tourists.

3. Rome's small museums: On our last visit, we discovered the Villa Torlonia and its Casa delle Civette. This time, we tried the Museo Napoleonico in the centro storico. It stands at the end of the Ponte Umberto I, in a grand palazzo, home of a Count Primoli, descendent of a Napoleonic sibling.

Probably the world's largest private collection of Buonaparte family memorabilia. You realize -- from the accompanying explanations of dynastic marriages and the catalogue of titles distributed among his siblings -- that Napoleon really was a megalomaniac. You realize too how, through conquest and upheaval, he kept the whole of Europe, Egypt and, briefly, North America convulsed over a period of 20 years.

Anyway: There's a trove of exquisite trinkets that various Bonapartes ordered for themselves or for one another: Miniatures, inlaid writing desks, dessert services, gigantic portraits, jewellery. And a primitive bicycle. Weird, grandiose, well-mounted. I wouldn't waste a fine spring day on this place but it was fun for a late-day, "getting-dark-and-chilly" time-slot.

I am really enjoying your report. I look forward to more.

Another addition to hidden neighbourhoods:

Via Margutta is scarcely "hidden", since it is one of the most famous streets in Rome, but it IS "cut off" -- by the steep rise of the Pincio and by Via del Babuino.

That street just keeps getting posher and posher, with many antique shops, galleries and specialty stores, (plus some delicious short-term rental apartments). We were amused to see the sign for a 4-star hotel, recalling we had stayed there in 1977 and paid $20/night -- it was a nice but simple pensione then.

Adjacent and parallel to via Margutta but about 5 storeys above it is the road that connects the top of the Spanish Steps and the church of S.ta Trinita dei Monti with the Borghese Gardens.

We usually nip inside the Metro station at Piazza di Spagna and take the little 4 person elevator (free) to the level of Trinita dei Monti. From there we wander toward the gardens, passing of course the Villa Medici on our right and a series of wild vertiginous gardens on our left.

The entry area to the gardens is pretty badly torn up right now -- I think they are restoring the area to its historic garden layout. The view, over Piazza del Popolo toward St Peter's, remains undiminished. From that lookout, it's a long way down, using pathways, stairs and/or the roadway. You emerge into Piazza del Popolo with the sense of having seen the best view in Rome.

I'm not sure I'm going to post anything about Florence and Venice -- I may have nothing new to say. Apart from one meal at Ristoro di Cambi in Florence, we tended to eat at home in those cities. And our museum-visiting and church-visiting was pretty standard. Moreover, neither of those cities demands the insider-knowledge that a much larger and more spread-out city such as Rome does.

Well, maybe I'll change my mind. But for now, I'll jump to the final part of the trip, when we stayed 3 nights in the Veneto before our weekend with Roberto. Our final night was at Casa Valiversi B&B in the hills near Florence Airport -- I will provide details at the end of this post.

On another thread I recently posted the following, about the "Palladian villa" country along the Brenta River:

"The Veneto and the villas....Well.....No, I would not do that area again.

"The farmland of the Venetian plane has been devastated -- there really is no other word -- by light industry, commercial development and random residential settlement.

"Driving is generally difficult as you are really never out of a built up area. There are some bypasses and some new roads are being built. But the villas require driving through small, ugly towns (e.g. Piombino Dese, for the V. Cornaro and the V. Marcello) and their ribbons of creeping growth.

"We started with Treviso, where we could not park because we could not find any place that sold parking coupons (what a weird approach -- why not use pay and display machines?)

"Castelfranco Veneto and Cittadella have pretty walls but not much more.... We travelled to Asolo, wh was kinda cute....but no more so than 100 Tuscan or Umbrian towns.

"The Villa Emo was a delight; it was one of the few villas open in this season and on the weekdays available to us. But -- like virtually all the villas, it seems -- it is surrounded by crappy village development. So we decided to go further abroad.

"We drove one sunny day up the east side of Lago di Garda, then cut across the mountains, via Rovereto to Schio (then picked up a motorway to get home). Absolute heaven in the off season. The lake is stunning and the mountain roads were clear, well maintained and fast.

"En route to Garda, we passed Vicenza and Verona and I realized nothing -- not even the V. Rotonda -- would induce me to visit either city by car. Or Bassano del Grappa -- huge, sprawling, terribly ugly on its edges.

"We did however climb the Cima del Grappa to the 1500 m altitude, beyond wh the road to Feltre was still blocked by snow (as we knew before we ascended). And Feltre is a charming, lively small city, whose public bldgs we explored -- we were allowed just to wander into and around the renaissance Sala degli Stimmi on our own, while municipal workers went about their business all around us."

Our base for the 3 nights in the Veneto was an agricultural enterprise (with its own wine label) called Le Risare, near Cittadella. Le Risare is an immaculate, quiet, very well restored historic property whose proprietor was very pleasant and helpful, as was the Ukrainian housekeeper Alina (sp.?)

For 80 E/ night, we got a good-sized room in a beautifully converted outbuilding with beamed ceilings and fireplace (laid with wood and with "firestarters" supplied) + a glorious bathroom with huge glass-walled shower.

Add to that a great breakfast of fresh baking, coffee/ tea, juices, cereal, fruit, sliced meats, cheeses, yogourt, etc.

Nearby are good reasonable restaurants -- 5 minutes to hip, youthful "Era Ora" in Campo San Martino, 15 minutes to the quaint, homey "Taverna degli Artisti" in the historic centre of Cittadella.

As I have mentioned more than once, our final weekend was spent near Bergamo, at Roberto and Pola's country place. Bergamo is another huge-seeming city but if you can make your way to the citta alta (upper town) you have a great and delightful surprise awaiting you. It is small but glorious and the churches, incl the Cappela del Colleoni, superb.

From the shops and cafes in the centre, it is plain that Bergamo is a wealthy and sophisticated town. It was very quiet on the rain-swept afternoon when we visited but Roberto assured us that by evening the bars and restaurants would all be humming.

Footnote: In a delightful contrast to our Treviso experience, we found v central parking in a space that had an ATTENDANT who actually took CASH. Incredible!

For our last night, I wanted to stay as close as possible to the Florence airport. I found our B&B in Alistair Sawday's remarkable and generally reliable guide. Sawday's reviews are sometimes rather "breathless" but in this case the praise was justified.

At 95 E/ nt., Casa Valiversi, on the edge of Sesto Fiorentino just outside Florence, was more expensive than some of our accommodation but it is also a designer's dream house of great style and one might even say luxury:

- there are monogrammed towels + pillow cases;
- the breakfast china is a handpainted custom order, ie. "Casa Valiversi" printed on the reverse of each piece
- the furniture is a mix of antiques and modern pieces and it all looks like the decorators just left that morning.....

The owner, Mirella, is an antiques dealer. That evening, she offered to lead us by car to a great but hard to locate restaurant in Sesto Fiorentino -- it is called "Aqaba" and serves pizzas (and also full meals) in a super-hip pavilion of huge arched windows, sky-high ceilings and very cool modern decor.

Mirella prepared an abundant breakfast for us next morning, before our early flight. Since the Florence airport ("A. Vespucci" AKA Peretola) is THE WORST signposted and hardest to locate airport I have ever seen, I was greateful that Mirella also offered to guide us by car to the airport! There are not many B&B operators who would make that gesture -- especially as she had another guest who would be wanting breakfast shortly after her return to Casa Valiversi.

We emailed her on our return to thank her again and to reassure her that we had made our flight. She responded "Non le nascondero che ero molto preoccupata..." (IE "I won't conceal from you that I was very concerned...") A very kind and thoughtful hostess.

I'll say it again. Just loving this report.

I'll say it again, too. Please write more about Florence and Venice. Your style is so easy and full of info., and your insights are very thought provoking.
Having been to all three cities, Florence several times, I look forward to more of your insights.
Many thanks for taking the time..

Wonderful report - great for first timers and repeat visitors. The format is so easy to read and I have enjoyed all the details.

BTW I was so sorry to have missed the Ottawa GTG and although I clicked on your facebook link it had expired so I wasn't able to see the photos. Hopefully there will be another opportunity to meet all of you.

Here are my Florence photos, which I have just set up as a Facebook album:
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2020673&id=1126123095&l=c0753126de

Royal: I am re-posting the link for our OTTAWA GTG and hope you can open it this time. Check it out! We had a great time with friends old and new. (And met again with "Ms. Lizzy", one of the "new" friends, just before our departure for Italy):

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2016686&id=1126123095&l=8e20d3ac09

Thanks Ted. No problem this time seeing the photos. Looks like I missed a very good lunch and meeting with new friends.

So nice to put a face to all those names.

I have just put together an album of Venice photos:

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2020676&id=1126123095&l=a7ec3c5342

Too bad that in Venice, as in Florence, there are so many places where you cannot photograph (Doge s Palace, Frari Church, etc)

Just for fun, I created this album, called Italy: Faces-People-Crowds.

NOTE: Some slight overlaps with my other albums.

A few witty images among the more conventional shots, I think:

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2020688&id=1126123095&l=2046681726

Yes, I guess I do have enough material to write a bit about Florence and Venice, which I will do tomorrow. We did enjoy ourselves in both places -- my reluctance is only because I feared I would have nothing new to say. But the photos I assembled this morning are stirring up some thoughts and ideas....

I loved your observations about the Italian collective psyche, which I found to be highly intuitive. You are an amazing writer.

I enjoyed reading your report; thanks for all the useful information. I have to confess that on my trip to Venice I had 2 gelato (gelati?) on a very hot day but I certainly walked it off.

Welcome back tedgale,

Your descriptions and photos take me back to my travels in Italy and I am lost in my nostalgic desire to see and taste and enjoy that culture you are sharing with us. Thank you for being so generous because I know it takes alot of time to edit and give us your best shots. I just love it.

tedgale, I am interested in the apartment you rented a few years back in Rome: http://www.vrbo.com/75004 Was it a OK experience for you last time, in terms of paying for the apartment, checking in, etc.?

The owner asked me to bank wire the deposit to her. I am fine with the deposit, but not sure about the bank wire thing.

Thanks for your time and reply.

Karina

I seem to recall we handed over a wad of cash on arrival; I do not recall sending a deposit. My memory is fuzzy though -- it was 3 years ago.

Check in was no problem -- we requested an early check in, outside their normal hours, for wh we had to pay a supplement. The website lays out the hours of check-in and the supplement payable. (We could not have done otherwise, really: I was not about to sit in a cafe for 3 hours.) The owner's rep was prompt and professional.

The apartment location is the great feature: about 3 minutes from the Metro and even less to Piazza di Spagna.

As I mentioned in my post, the place could use a coat of paint and a good scrub, though the general level of cleanliness (kitchen, bath, bed) is quite OK. Some of the furniture is actually quite nice antiques. The living area is very generous; the bedroom -- a space without an external window, though bright enough -- is a good size.

The bath and kitchen likely date from the 80s. Washing machine in the apt -- a BIG plus.

Good food shop a couple of streets north (via della Vittoria, I think), just off via del Babuino.

In what season would you be there? I do not recall seeing any air conditioning equipment.

tedgale, really, really appreciate your comments. That helps a lot. I will be there in the first week of June, so it is getting close. I have no problem paying cash on arrival, but I dislike a bank wire. I wish the owner would use paypal. The total cost is Euro 515 (including a cleaning fee) for 4 nights.

Another choice is: http://www.vrbo.com/227107. I am not sure how good this one is. The location seems to be good too, but it is my first time in Rome and I do not know much about the neighborhoods.

Thanks again,

Karina

I will cehck that one out.

In the interval between my last post and this one, I looked up another VRBO Listing that we wd likely have rented, had not the Lungotevere Marzio one been free and SOOO reasonable:

http://www.vrbo.com/222436

This is a completely renovated space on via Mario dei Fiori at the corner of via Frattina ie the very same neighbourhood, possibly even a little bit quieter.

The ONE negative with this apt is a low ceiling (easier to air condition, though) of only 7 feet in at least one of the rooms. That troubled me -- though I've just realized I am writing this in a small bsmt room in my home: The ceiling here is not even 7 feet and it has never troubled me, though I spend hours here.

(Bsmts are supposed to be low and rather dark, right??)

I will check out the other one and get back to you.

Thanks so much, tedgale. I appreciate your taking time for my questions. My house does not have a basement, although I really want one. The 7-feet ceiling does not bother me, since I am kind of in "short" supply. I asked the owner of #222436 a few days ago, and I was told it was not available.

Karina

I can only comment on the location. Reached from the top of the Spanish Steps, Via delle 4 Fontane is central and relatively upscale, though not as posh as the other locations above.

It is in an historic area of town but one that has been extensively rebuilt in the 19th C.

It does not have a great deal of appeal for me, I must admit -- though there are some important sites nearby: The Quirinale palace, The Palazzo Barberini + 2 of the churches I describe in my trip report: San Carlino (on the corner of 4 fontane) and Sant' Andrea al Quirinale.

The apt looks fine, though I deduce it has not much of a view.

Thanks, tedgale. I really prefer the location of #75004. Well, I guess I might go along with the bank wire thing. My banker was very cautious this morning, and I can imagine her disapproving face when I go back tomorrow morning.

Ciao,

Karina

Loving your report!!!!

Knowing the via del Babuino one as I do, I wd probably opt for it.

Just be prepared for the possibility of a slight sinking feeling when you enter. Remove frumpy tablecloths and so on from furniture -- there is good stuff underneath.

Offsets are LOADS of space + light; quiet neighbours; great location including restaurants + great street life.

BTW: The common entry hall is crummy. ALL common entry halls in Rome are crummy. The Lungotevere Marzio one was gloomy, depressing and full of plaster dust from someone's renovation. This is normal there.

tegdale
It has been very interesting reading your trip report. We are planning a trip to Northern Italy in Sept/Oct. We arrive in Milan on 9 Sept and fly out of Venice on 15/10 with trips to Lake Maggiore, Walking tour around the lakes, Bergamo, Verona, Vicenza Padua, Brenta Canal in between. We have found it difficult to get reasonably priced B&B accommodation without a lot of frills and a reasonably priced apartment in Venice (6 nights). Any information you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Here is the link to a very comprehensive guide to Bergamo and the upper Veneto region:

http://www.italyheaven.co.uk/bergamotourist.html

From the website of a fairly pricey B&B near Bergamo, here are a set of links for tourism in Bergamo and Lecco, which may be of use:

http://www.casaclelia.com/eng/links.html

This agriturismo in the Padova/ Padua area looked quite enticing; we thought of staying there:

http://www.agriturismofattoriagrimana.it/en/fattoriaen.html

However, the best source of B&B recommendations for Italy is Alistair Sawday. If you agree to sign up (it's free) online you can read all his B&B reviews. That is where we found our B&B near Florence, for example. The coverage of the north is thinner but still there are some decent places:

http://www.sawdays.co.uk/accommodation/italy

As you will gather from my trip report, we did not love the Brenta area, which has been devastated by industrial, commercial and housing developments. We have only praise, however, for the B&B Le Risare:

http://www.lerisare.it/english/home.php

We decided to stay at Le Risare for our whole time in the Veneto; otherwise we would likely have stayed at this enchanting place, in the hills just above Verona:

http://www.bblabella.com/la_bella/index.html

...Or at this place near Vicenza:

http://www.lecanossiane.it

And here is a large inventory of Veneto B&Bs:

http://www.bed-and-breakfast-in-italy.com/ricerche_speciali.cfm

For Venice rentals, we have used veniceapartments.org (which is not the same as veniceapartments.com):

http://veniceapartments.org

But I also noted the apartment Turchette, ideally located near Campo Santa Margherita, on this website:

http://www.wenicevenice.it/appartements-louer-venise.htm

As well as this spacious one, listed on VRBO:

http://www.vrbo.com/209059

I will add more items if I can think of them.....

Just wanted to say , we just came back from 4 days in Venice and we too stayed at Fegalliano (veniceapartments) - but with a zillion bug bites and NO sleep. The place was infested, bed bugs, fleas... no air conditioning though it states there is, and the vaparetto terminals were right beneath the apartment windows - VERY, VERY noisy. Bus drivers and customers yelling all hours of the night and the engines from the ferries sound like tornadoes coming in. I would not recommend this apartment at all.

Hey Ted - great report, thanks so much. You did however throw a wrench into my plans which were to stay for 4 nights in Vicenza and do day trips to the villas in the Veneto but you've kind of put me off that idea. Now that you have done it any suggestions? Let's say you were going to do it again knowing what you know now. I am thinking now of staying outside of Vicenza and doing it as a day trip as well. Anyway, thanks for the post, it is great and very helpful.

ttt for later

how did I miss this 1st time round??

a great trip report and one which WOULD have been very useful if I'd found it before we went to Rome in Feb this year.

Thanks, annhig.

auerjac: If I were doing it again I would, quite simply, choose another region.

We had a delightful time this March just outside Lucca. North of Lucca are many, many fine villas and gardens. My trip report is called "Tedgale Italy Trip Report, Part II: Florence, Lucca and their environs ".

Another area we grew to like -- though first impressions were a bit negative -- was the province of Cremona, Lombardy, where we found terrific walled towns:

Search under "Ted Gale Italy Trip Report, Part III: A very few days in Lombardy (Cremona)"

NOTE: At the end of that thread there are some comments and suggestions from others about Palladian villas in the Veneto!!!

A fascinating read, Ted. I need to thank you for recommending Osteria del Pegno, perhaps the highlight of some very good dining experiences I had in Italy on a two-week trip I took last month. From now on I think I will go back there every time I return to Rome. Great food, and such nice service. Wonderful.

I just came across your thoughtful, insightful and very helpful trip report.
Rome is my passion, and I will be there in 2 weeks (for 2 weeks). Two of your restaurants are now on my list, so thanks for that too.

Thanks. I'll be in Rome myself on October 30, after a week in Montepulciano and 5 nights in Puglia.

So 2 nights to dine in Rome. Where will it be?

Yes, thanks for the insight into the Italian personna - I came back from a trip to France tellling people that the French were not as rude as they are reputed to be, but then after a week in No. Italy I realized that the Italians are really just that much nicer! Not sure I would concur that Venetian cuisine is mediocre, but perhaps that suggests you've had especially good experiences elsewhere, so if you want to call my necktar poison, . . . .

And not all areas of the US are the same - here in Tennessee our politicians can say the USA is a Christian nation, if they want to. and after a few more hits of 'shine, it becomes more Christianer, gol-durnit!

I'm sure Venetian cuisine is not mediocre but Venice restaurants ....may not meet a consistent standard.

I've generally eaten better in other regions and for far less money than in Venice.

110E for a light-ish LUNCH for 2, at Corte Sconta??

(My brother & his wife were keen to go. But they're New Yorkers, so price means nothing to them)

iluvitaly: Depends on where you're staying. Are you somewhere central? My ideal is to walk only 5-10 minutes to a restaurant (though of course, that cannot be an invariable rule)

We rent an apartment on Via Farnesi, steps from Piazza Farnese.

Some of our "local" restaurants are Ditirambo, GrappoloD'Oro, Ai Balestrari, Ar Galletto, Sergios, Filettaro d Baccala. (don't really like Der Pallaro)
A little farther, Enoteca Corsi, Armando al Pantheon, Settimios al Pantheon.

So, with only 2 nights, what are your choices?

You're way ahead of me!!!
From that list, I've eaten only at Ditirambo and at the quite disappointing Der Pallaro!

Looking for recommendation for Rome apartment with either balcony or terrace-nothing above the 3rd floor without a lift -hey, we are old people that tire easily -reasonable pricing-for two people-about a week.
For Venice accomodations we would highly, highly recommend B&B Sandra-
http://www.bbalessandra.com/
We stayed there several years ago and we loved it! Clean, clean, clean, great breakfast, afternoon little surprise treats and hosts that go above and beyond!

LuvToRoam, tedgale's apartment in this trip report has a terrace, lift and looks pretty nice.

Tedgale, you mention the ease of taking a bus on Appia Antica. We hope to get to the Fosse Ardeatine and San Callisto catacombs in one shot, so I hope it really is easy!

Looks like you're not parting with your restaurants of choice for your 2 nights~ not to worry...I promise not to stalk.

Point on consistency noted. Also, after several days in Venice pre-cruise, we found the best Gelato . . .
. . . on Mykonos!!!! Seriously! Just to the left of the Delos cruise ticket office on Mykonos is a little gelato stand and on the day we were there, they had awesome gelato. One can reasonably speculate that I was a victim of the above mentioned Venetian inconsistency.

Tedgale: Glad this report is still "alive" It is so good in all respects. You're one of the greats!

Thanks Taconic.
RE our 2 dinners in Rome: We'll probably head back one night to the tried-and-true Osteria del Pegno or to one of the other small restaurants in that Navona 'hood. If I were around the Palazzo Farnese, I'd probably go to the Ghetto (Da Giggetto??) or perhaps -- to splash out -- Pierluigi, where I've never yet eaten....