stefi

Sorry, this is a long one! Hoping to get help narrowing down choices for a trip, late June/early July 08 with DH and DSx2 who are 16 and 17. Arriving Manchester (not jet-lagged, arriving from Greece from our 1st half of trip)evening of June 30 and departing from same on morning of July 8, giving us 7 full days. We are thinking that we want to limit our travel areas to central/Northern England but that's not set in stone - open to other suggestions!

DH and I spent a little time (in the late 80's and early 90's) in London, Lake District and Yorkshire Dales and so are "somewhat" familiar with those areas. What DH and I would like to show the boys are a few areas/sites that most would consider archetypical England.
If we stay in the north, we would like to show them a castle or two; Durham, Brougham, Prudhoe, Pendragon. We would like to see some early historic sites - Castle Rigg, Hadrian's wall? An abbey/cathedral or two - York Minster and Bolton or Fountains? A nice day or two in the countryside -walking in the Dales, Peak District, Kielder Forest? Liverpool (both boys are Beatles freaks). A medium sized town (York? Durham? both?) Since we will have a car, we will be able to visit smaller villages here and there..

What do you consider quintessential England? What experiences, sites would you recommend that we share with these two first timers?

Ani

Ahhh-I'm jealous! We've stayed in York twice and just love it. The Minster, in my opinion, is a must. Also Fountains Abbey. Calling it lovely is a massive understatement. Those would be the top 2 on my list!

rickmav

It's an interesting question and you are probably going to get some quite different ideas - maybe even hear from those who hate the fact that tourists want the 'chocolate-box' England when they come to visit. But that may not be what you want - it depends, of course, on how you define what quintessential England is.

From your list of interests can I conclude that for you it is: castles, historic sites, cathedrals, countryside walks, and the Beatles? If so, I think the list you've made is a good one. Some suggested additions: Sutton Hoo, Warwick (further south), the castles of North Wales, Eden Camp (World War II), and the North Yorkshire Moors and Derbyshire for hiking/walks.

Some other things you might consider are: the seaside, amazing gardens, England's industrial heritage, movie locations, academic towns, lovely villages, grand estates.

In this list you might consider (in central/north England): Cambridge, Whitby (including Dracula's Abbey), Robin Hood's Bay, Newcastle, Goathland (Harry Potter), Southwold and Aldeburgh, Audley End, Ickworth House, Helmsley, Hutton le Hole, Thornton le Dale, Castle Howard, Imperial War Museum (aircraft), the Potteries, Ironbridge, and Chatsworth.

A bit further south, of course, are the Cotswolds and Oxford with many worthwhile things to see there.

Good luck with your quest.

stefi

Thanks, ani. We loved York also, tho my jet-lagged DH did manage to fall asleep in the Minster on our first day there; guess he needs to see it again, eyes open this time!

Thanks, rickmav. Your reply was very helpful! I am really hoping to get some new ideas and not just focus on my own interests; the teen boys might find stopping at every abbey, ruin, castle or garden to be a bit wearing after the first few hours! I think I wasn't clear in my first post...we are not looking for just chocolate box, pretty postcard England. We are looking for things that maybe locals themselves think of as quintessential. For some, that may be pretty villages or the glorious countryside. For others, it may be a soccer or cricket match. Others might think of historical sites. We want the boys to take away more from the trip than just "I did/saw something I could have done/seen in a number of other places. Know what I mean?

melody1

I would go to windsor and do the tourist 'tea and crumpets' experience and of course see the castle, and also to oxford and cambridge. I'm originally from Gloucestershire, ie the cotswolds and used to go to places like bourton-on-the water and cirencester as a child, so you could have a weekend there - preferably staying in cheltenham as a base. Hope that's of help! Oh, and if you want to buy things like tea and jam for souvenirs don't go to the expensive tourist shops, just head to sainsbury's or waitrose supermarkets who should have 'twinings' tea and even crumpets if you can get them through customs!

melody1

Ps have just read your post again and see the ages of the children, in that case I would try and take them to london for at least one day, and go to cambridge, oxford, also kington-upon-thames (good for shopping), richmond and hampton court palace, from there. You could then go to the cotswolds (cheltenham as a base) and visit stratford-upon-avon and warwick castle from there, as it's a whole other area.

melody1

Last post- see that you want to visit small villages, so definitelyt bourton-on-the-water and somewhere like cirencester if staying in the cotswolds. Gloucester is the other town near cheltenham and it has a cathedral and smal roman ruin - cirencester also roman. As it's the summer then and if staying in London I would definitely visit hampton court palace. A nice base for you at that time of year I think, for the London part, would be Kingston-up-Thames or Surbiton, as there is a river there and it's only 20 mins on a fast train from London waterloo - from Surbiton station. Phew, that's it from me!

annhig

Hi stefi,

as you are arriving at Manchester, I'd stick to the north. the list you give is long enough to fill more than a week.

but if you want to go further afield, why not head for Edinburgh via Hadrian's wall? they may not be "english" but they are certainly British.

regards, ann

hausfrau

Hi stefi,
I can definitely recommend Castlerigg stone circle and Housesteads Roman Fort along Hadrian's Wall in Northumberland.

Castlerigg is not huge in the manner of Stonehenge, but it is a beautiful, atmospheric site at the northern edge of the Lake District and you will probably have the place nearly to yourselves.

We only had time to visit one site on Hadrian's Wall and everyone recommended Housesteads - it is the most intact Roman fort in England and has a small museum and very good interpretive signage, plus you can see a long stretch of the wall to either side.

If you are considering venturing into Wales and your boys are interested in castles, then I encourage you to look into Caernarfon and Conwy.

melody1

Hi

I feel I have totally confused you so have put together a possible itinerary, I don't think the cotswolds would be realistic in the amount of time you have, and for the age of the children going feel a London-based trip may be more suitable (staying in the suburbs which is more pleasant than central London in the summer).
June 30 Stay in Manchester the night
July 1 Machester to Liverpool - and night there (essential if they are beatles fans)
2 Liverpool to London by train, then on to Kingston/ Surbiton to stay. Alternatively stay in Wimbledon which is about 10 mins from central London by train and where you could visit the famous tennis courts and museum.
3 Daytrip to Windsor or Oxford - castle and touristy things
4 Daytrip to Hampton Court - Thames Ditton village is very quintessentially English, also Kingston-upon-Thames for shopping which
6 Daytrip to Oxford or Cambridge
7 Central London Sites (I would avoid the centre in summer though) including trip to Abbey Road studios at St Johns Wood tube (check that)
8 London to manchester ( can get cheap ticket with virgin trains)

I don't know a lot about liverpool but live in London.. a place to go and get reasonably priced English food, if there is such a thing, is called the Stockpot in old compton street. Cash only and in Soho, but very easy to find and they won't overcharge you! Also look out for Lloyds wetherspoons on charing cross road - also one in Kingston-upon-Thames and in Wimbledon - for very cheap meals, English breakfast served til midday for about £2.99, and tea and coffee for a fraction of what you would pay elsewhere. For booking hotel accommodation I always used booking.com, where you don't have to pay for the hotel, and can cancel if you don't need it. So again, for a hotel I would stay hear Surbiton for the fast train to Waterloo, or in Wimbledon. One thing to mention is a summer school I know for foreign students have chosen Kingston this year for their older teenagers, because of the facilites - shopping, bowling, big cinema, and its location near London - and this is the summer centre where the teenagers are given less supervision. There is also a nice little restaurant which has just opened in the Rotunda complex - next to the station - called Prezzo - it's a chain, but the food is very tasty and reasonable. Also try Jo Shmos by the river, where there are also nice bars and restaurants - it really comes into its own in the summer.

melody1

And of course if you go to Oxford, there is Christchurch College where parts of Harry Potter were filmed - a very popular site with tourists - I have worked as a tour guide with teenagers for many years so know all the trips we go on!

flanneruk

I'm not sure there is such a thing as a "quintessentially English site". In fact, I'd go so far as to say I'm sure there's no such thing.

There are a few quintessentially English sights. Well, there's one: gently undulating fields covered with sheep you can walk through the middle of to get to a decent village with pubs and a medieval church. There's little of that in the North: the Dales are too dramatic and most of the churches on the West side and round Leeds got over-restored in the 19th century. But, allowing for its excess ruggedness, any modest-sized Yorkshire town (Skipton, say, or Helmsley) comes as close to the Yorkshire version of quintessential Englishness as it's possible to imagine. Try to get to some Yorkshire village cricket.

Trouble is, much that matters in your designated area ISN'T quintessentially English. The three most important events ever to happen in the area (the hailing of Constantine as Emperor in York in 306, the Industrial Revolution all along the Hull-Liverpool belt and the largest human migration of all time in the late 19th century through Liverpool) are about as far from what most people think of as English as you can get.

Similarly York Minster, like Durham Cathedral - however wonderful they both are - are just another two great late Romanesque churches, like you'd find almost anywhere in Germany or France: they're not at all quintessentially English. (what can be more unEnglish than having the tomb of two fully accredited Saints, as Durham has? But there's always the Coal Miners' Memorial). Contrast them with the aggressive sinplicity of any decent village church.

Liverpool's a city-state that looks west and south across the oceans, not east to mainstream England: we really, really don't like being thought of as English at all (and the English return the compliment). Mind you, in our contempt for nationalism, our bizarre sense of the world as our hinterland and the rest of England as a foreign country, and our sheer bolshiness (not to mention our addiction to binge drinking, our inability to organise anything, and our dependence on our wits rather than dour hard working) we probably are the absolute quintessence of real modern England.

And that I suppose is my point. Quintessential England has little to do with sites or sights. It's an attitude of mind, easily accessible by keeping Radio 4 on, interspersed with Radio 1. By reading ALL the tabloids and keeping up with Coronation St and East Enders. By going round the Liverpool pubs, just as much as the Ye Olde Innes in the pretty villages. By going to to the Gorms along Waterloo beach, outside Liverpool. And, while you're on the Liverpool/Lancashire coast, going to Blackpool.

England is a highly urbanised, densely populated, post-industrial society that (at any rate outside the North, where you're going to be) is jolly happy to be making money from superficial fripperies and not having to go to a smelly, noisy, dangerous factory any more. It's even happier it's not seeing its kids getting killed or forking out tax to defend our ownership of some bit of desert 10,000 miles away where the population would rather be ruled by a psychopath who's going to steal their money than an honest, well-meaning Winchester scholar.

What sums that up is probably a bunch of kids getting pissed on a Saturday night (and into the middle of Sunday morning) on the streets of Liverpool, half the teenage population of Manchester hanging round the Topshop in the Trafford Centre, the other half getting on jets to Majorca on any summer Saturday at MCR airport or about three and a half people rattling round the main (and beautifully sung) service in a big cathedral. Not forgetting the Helmsley mothers union rattling collection tins for the poor sods suffering a famine because of the psychopath we let take over their country.

You'll get all the sites and sights (however unquintessential they might be) from everyone else. But for quintessence-spotting, to paraphrase what it says in St Paul's: si quintessentiam requiris, circumspice.

Or in straightforward English: just keep your eyes and ears open.

Cholmondley_Warner

rather be ruled by a psychopath who's going to steal their money than an honest, well-meaning Winchester scholar.>>>

Let the record reflect that Cholmondley Warner has no territorial ambitions. None at all. Got it. Good. Carry on.

stefi

Thanks, melody1, for all the ideas. Wow - what a lot of great info, esp about London and environs! I like the idea of staying outside London and taking the train in/around for the day.

Thanks, annhig - we also thought that staying in the north would make the most sense, timewise. We would love to see Edinburgh, along with much else in Scotland but I think we will save it for another trip.

Thanks, hausfrau, for the thumbs-up on Castlerigg. DH and I went there with my parents almost 20 years ago and it was spectacular. A fond memory of my silly dad (now deceased) among those ancient stones doing the Julie Andrews twirl and sing "The Hills are Alive"...I guess that's one reason I'd like to go back there!

And thanks also to you, flanneruk, for some great insights into the near-mystical quality of a green field of gently undulating sheep. But undulating ungulates aside, I appreciate your giving me what YOU think of as important in your area, rather than what MOST people would want to see in your area. That's exactly what I'm looking for. And Liverpool, with its "addiction to binge drinking, our inability to organise anything, and our dependence on our wits rather than dour hard working" sounds like my kind of place. Esp that last part.

bettyk

One of the most impressive castles I saw during our stint in London was Bamburgh Castle in Northumberland. It really made an impression on me.

http://www.bamburghcastle.com/

I also agree with visiting Whitby and Robin Hood's Bay as well as Castle Howard.

http://www.whitby.co.uk/
http://www.robin-hoods-bay.co.uk/
http://www.castlehoward.co.uk/metadot/index.pl

Ani

How did I forget to mention the castles of N. Wales-my favorite place on earth and some are pretty close to York. My personal favorite is Beaumaris. I also liked Bamburgh.

janisj

With all due respect -- All of melody1's info is grand - however you are flying in/out of <u>Manchester</u> and only have 7 days.

I would 100% totally stay in the North. London is not a day trip. The Cotswolds is not dramatic nor much for teenage boys unless they are doing long distance walks - and you don't have the time for that. Warwick and Windsor are fine places -- but you will be far away from them.

There are hundreds of thins to do in the Peaks, Yorkshire, North Wales, etc etc. W/ just 7+ days and using Manchester - take advantage of that fact and see thing like the Peaks, North Yorkshire Moors, amazing castles in N Wales, maybe Hadrian's wall.

Leave London, the Cotswolds, and the rest of the south for another trip when it makes sense logistically . . . . .

mirolex

I didn't notice any mention of it, but the kids may enjoy Blackpool Pleasure Beach. Don't know what it's like now, but our son thoroughly enjoyed it at that age. It's close enough to Manch. for a day trip. Wales is not too far, esp. Conwy; fantastic castle! Chester is another historic city, not too big, not too far from Manch. I agree that going down to London/Oxford/Cambridge is a bit far when you've so little time. Every time we visit, I wish we had more time. 2-3 wks is not enough!

stefi

Thanks, bettyk. I do like the idea of Bamburgh Castle. Whitby might also hold some interest for the boys in that I can tell them, &quot;This is where 20 years ago your dad scraped the side of a very expensive car in his very not expensive rental car.&quot; Human interest stories!

Thanks again, ani. N. Wales is very convenient to Manchester and I expect very teen-boy friendly.

Thanks, janisj. I agree, London will need to keep for another time, darn it. There are many weeks worth of things to see/do in the North. It's just so difficult choosing a few!

Thanks, mirolex. Blackpool is somewhere we will likely visit since we will be staying a night with friends in Preston. And I'm adding Conwy to my ever-growing list of &quot;maybe's&quot;.

Flanneruk, you mentioned Yorkshire cricket - sorry to be an ignorant Yank but is there a particular day of the week that we would be more likely to see a match? Any favorite teams/locations?

kleeblatt

I used the word quintessential in my trip report about Devon and area.

Here's an excerpt:

North Devon: Sampford Brett and Dunster

We continued on our trip with my English friend driving barefoot while I was trying to figure out our map. We ended up buying a detailed map so we wouldn’t have to ask the friendly locals for their well-meant directions. As we drove in the direction of Lynton, we began passing thatched roofs. Look, our first thatched roof! Our second! And more and more began peeking over the hedges.

Sampford Brett
On a whim ( or was it female intuition?) we went up a small lane to take a closer look at a beautiful thatched roof house and came into a breathtaking tiny hamlet called Sampford Brett. On the left side was the old church, dotted with old grave stones, on the right was the old school (labelled: The Old School) and gorgeous old houses on the two streets surrounding them. We went by the old barn (labelled: The Old Barn) and parked near the new barn. There was a woman’s gathering going on and friendly folk waved to us as we drove or walked by. It was the quintessential hamlet. A perfect place to live or use as a set in a film. I highly recommend anyone driving down the A358 to stop and have a look. It will make you want to buy a house there.

We continued our drive to Dunster, a village recommended on this board (thank you!) Dunster is a medieval town with a long downtown street. It was another sizzling day so we walked in the shade of the old buildings, past the old yarn building until we finally found the old mill. The old mill area is breathtaking. Thatched roof houses in white and pink nestled closely together with flowers blooming in the front yard or along the house walls.

Selworthy, Allerford, Bossington

Leaving Dunster, we continue driving towards North Devon. We are still searching for wonderful town villages and, oops, we just passed the sign that points to Selworthy. We attempt to find a place to turn around, which is not easy on these roads, and after a successful u-turn, we head for Selworthy. As we drive up the road, we again see hedges on the left and right. And a bit of yellow. Is that a thatched roof? Is that a house? We drive up to the parking lot, located below a beautiful white church. We decide not to get out (mistake, I know) but turn around and continue our drive. Behind those hedges would have been a few beautiful yellow thatched roof houses. But the driver was getting hungry and there were no restaurants in sight so we continue our drive.

Just a bit down the road, I see Allerford and a brief glimpse of a beautiful tiny stone bridge. Halt! Turn around. That’s where we are going. We drive into the hamlet of Allerford and are transported back 100+ years. The beauty, the serenity, the Englishness of it all. The stone bridge arches over a babbling brook strewn with green plants. Behind it is a beautiful thatched cottage, framed with an English garden. We get out and take pictures. We then continue down the country lane, passing more picture perfect country cottages until we end at Bossington.

Serendipity. We are in heaven. A perfect hamlet with wonderful thatched cottages that haven’t changed over the years. I believe the area is under National Trust, so they aren’t allowed to change a thing. We go to the car park and decide to eat at Kitner’s tearoom. We went out to the back and found ourselves in the perfect English garden. The menu was exquisite and a bit Italian. Even our waitress was Italian. However, the food was divine (I ordered a tuna ciabatta) and dessert, scones, of course, were out of this world. The clotted cream was whipped and white, the best throughout our whole trip. The prices were reasonable too. I would return to this gourmet paradise at the drop of a hat.

Here’s a website with a picture of this fantastic restaurant:
http://www.pbase.com/moorlands/image/25422688