joan

Hi there!

I have done a bit of research, and have booked air (September 2015) into Zurich, first hotel will be in Murren for four nights. Not sure where to go from there - we depart from Amsterdam three weeks later.

We are a married couple who like:
-three or four night minimum in each place
-Rhine River (Bacharach?) is definitely on our list
-Bruges is also on the list
-we enjoy small towns, great eating, picnicing, wine, hiking, art in small doses, music (Strasbourg? Musical instrument museum in Brussels?), and recreational biking (we often rent a tandem bike); don't really plan on visiting the big cities other than Amsterdam. Not interested in war sites. We are independent travelers who often rent apartments instead of hotels.

Can you give me suggestions for 2-4 places in between the above stops?

We took our first trip to Europe last year (France and Italy), and thanks to wonderful help from fellow Fodorites, fell in love with Tuscany and the Loire Valley. Air France strike scored us two free roundtrips this year (imagine!) and so it was a tough decision NOT to return to Tuscany, but we don't know if we will ever get another chance to see Europe.

While researching France last trip, we were very tempted to travel the Alsace wine road in France. Would that be logical on this trip? Or is seeing the Rhine so similar that one would cancel out the other?

Thanks for any and all suggestions!

PalenQ

I would suggest considering the Mosel Valley and Cochem as a base as an alternative to the nearby Rhine - IMO the Mosel is more gorgeous as a river valley than the Rhine and Cochem is the picture postcard type town that simply does not have an equal IMO on the Rhine.

https://www.google.com/search?q=coch...=1600&bih=1075

Near Cochem is Burg Eltz oneof Germany's most famous and sweetest castles and one of the few in this area not decimated in wars or left in ruins - easy to reach by public transport.

Neither the Rhine nor the Mosel are at all similar to the Alsace wine road - Mosel is full of vineyards and wineries however - just a few on The Rhine.

Going by train I presume - check these sources for rail itinerary suggestions: www.budgeteuropetravel.com - download their free online European Planning & Rail Guide for lots of suggested rail itineraries; www.seat61.com and www.ricksteves.com. For Switzerland www.swisstravelsystem.com.

Check out the Jungfraubahn Pass for train and gondola travels in the Jungfrau Region.

nytraveler

Strasbourg, Colmar and the wine road in between are a great choice. Both towns are charming have a lot to see and do and you can probably easily organize bikes to visit the tiny villages in between them, although we drove. Easily worth 4 or 5 days.

joan

Thanks for the quick replies!
Wow, Cochem looks perfect for us. And I'm delighted to hear that Strasbourg and Colmar are a logical lineup. I'll look into these options and come back with more thoughts.

Palenq, you have made train lovers out of us! Well, you and Air France. When our flight from Paris to Florence was cancelled last minute, we were forced to purchase train tix ($$$ but reimbursed eventually and with much perseverance), so we packed a picnic and thoroughly enjoyed the trip through the mountains. Now my husband would prefer that to renting a car where possible. Thanks for the rail planning tips.

PalenQ

thanks joan! Cochem is easily reached by rail - change at Koblenz and you can do a day trip by train and boat on The Rhine - the best part of the river - the Rhine Gorge - take a train to Koblenz from Cochem and then to Bingen and take the K-D boat cruises thru the best part of the Rhine Gorge - to about Boppard - reboard the train and go back to Cochem - you can get on and off the K-D boats as they go frequently - Marksburg Castle near the Braubach boat dock is the only intact authentic medieval castle on this part of The Rhine - you can take a train from there (Braubach) to Koblenz as well I think.

cochem offers boat trips up the Mosel to Beilstein over arguably the most scenic part of the whole Mosel - short trips on a much smaller boat than the K-D boats.

www.k-d.com - if you have a railpass it is valid on the boats - was 100% but not sure of current coverage - check if having a railpass.

rellie2

Hi Joan
My husband and I went to Europe for the first time in Sept last year and the first part was Amsterdam to Brussels to Lausanne.
It sounds like you may like the Lausanne part of our visit. We spent 5 nights there as our base and visited:
- Lavaux wine region. This is made up of a few little towns. We went on the Lavaux express which is a little train that takes you through the vineyards with views over Lake Geneva.
- Chillon castle & Montreux (we caught the train between the 2 but I believe you can actually walk along the lake from and it's very pretty).
- Gruyere (a picturesque little town) + Broc (Callier chocolate factory).
Happy planning.

bilboburgler

Mulhouse
Colmar
Strasbourg
Trier and the whole Mosel
Luxembourg city
The whole Pfalz area but especially Bad Durkheim
Bopard
Idar Oberstein
Bonn
Cologne
Ghent
Middlebourg and the islands

all pretty good

joan

Thanks rellie2 and bilboburgler. Man oh man it's google time. Might be fate, but I love Gruyere cheese and who doesn't love chocolate? Those sure caught my eye!

Have already substituted Cochem for Koblenz as a base. Oh the google images!

Debating whether to include Brussels, definitely seeing Bruges and of course Amsterdam. (Stay in Bruges and day trip to Brussels?)

Will research these other places. Bilboburgler, I'm assuming these are groups of near-each-other towns for day tripping...

joan

Bilboburgler (or anyone), would you suggest Middlebourg as a base or as a daytrip from Bruges? What appeals about these islands (we love islands by the way)?

bilboburgler

I used to holiday as a kid on the islands of Zeeland, not so well connected by public transport as most of the country but very boaty/bikey. Yes you could base there to visit Bruges (1.5 hours away). My two favorite villages are Goes and Veere, if you ever get there you realise you are in the middle of a heavily post industrial country and yet, in some ways, back in time.

What appeals, well the fact that most people get about by bike, that the flooding sea is so close, the apple cake is so much better than that made in the US, close enough to Belgium to get good beer

"Will research these other places. Bilboburgler, I'm assuming these are groups of near-each-other towns for day tripping..."

not really, each is unique in a special way, Trier was capital of the Roman Empire for 30 years has some of the best Roman buildings outside of Rome and one of my favorite wineries in the world is next door. Bonn is the old capital of West Germany. Bad Durkheim is spa heaven with good wine and a nice bike path, Mulhouse has a world class paper museum, Colmar is loved by many (less so by me) but is the centre of a great wine district, plus the Vosges and their WW2 remnants, Strasbourg has a glorious medievel centre and WW1 structures along with the White Elephant of EU government building 2, The Mosel is lovely with fine wine (still trying to get Mrs Bilbo to buy a house there), Bopard is on the Rhine and such a nice place with easy access from the Motorway, Idar Oberstein is a rock-hounds/hikers paradise, Cologne has a cathedral and tiny beers, Ghent is better than Brugges, Luxembourg used to have a fortress which was decommisioned as part of some pact or other, so the fortress you see (built into a cliff) is what is left after the main one was pulled down.

bilboburgler

Just saw your poin about Alsace wine region. I love it but the following thread might be a help

http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...es-of-wine.cfm

joan

OK! Back for more advice!

Have booked first three stops: Murren, Switzerland, then Riquewihr, France, and Cochem, Germany on the Mosel - four nights each.

Need advice for last two stops, Sept/Oct, spanning 9 nights. We are thinking Bruges, Brussels, Amsterdam, but open to different suggestions. We depart from Amsterdam so that will be our last stop....so I guess I'm asking for one stop between Cochem and Amsterdam.

We love water, casual cycling, and eating! The combination of "chocolate, beer and frites" (according to Rick Steves) makes Bruges a natural for us. We are into seafood (we own a seafood restaurant), and jazz and the bikes as I said, can't wait to see the Van Goghs and the Amsterdam canals...What would you do? (Second trip of a lifetime, having seen Paris, Loire, Florence, Tuscany, Venice last year - luckily we get one more trip due to Air France strike last time)

Thanks again!

bilboburgler

Bruges is well set up for tourists and in the eveing, after the buses have gone can be good, with a lovely little lace museum and a Church dedicated to one of the patrons of lace next to the museum, not bad, but the canals are kinda time warped and everything is stuck in the 17ct.

I might look at Haarlam as a serious contender, a bit more modern with an old market square at its centre with the odd pub offering jazz and beer. Ghent is also pretty nice, I've advised of my other favorites above.

If you do decide to stay in Amsterdam don't stay in some international hotel monster, but look at say one of the boat hotels or some where like http://www.hotelbrouwer.nl/ great rooms right on a canal.

I'm going to mention the islands again as the fish you get is so fresh. Dutch food has come a long way in the last 30 years, it can now be excellent.

joan

Thanks Bilboburgler. We really enjoy vacation rentals, last trip was zero hotels and five homes/apts. This trip we have a B&B in Murren, but so far the rest are small homes.

Some of your suggestions seem waaay off the beaten path, and while we like small villages vs. big cities, I don't know if I want to spend my (perhaps) only visit going to remote islands. Maybe 3rd or 4th visit?

My husband mentnioned Haarlam also. Not sure if we should call this a day trip - or stay there and day trip to Bruges, Brussels, Amsterdam....aaah decision!

PalenQ

If basing in Murren then a Swiss Pass can be very valuable because it covers in full the trains from Lauterbrunnen and thrilling aerial cable way to Grutschalp and ensuing train to Murren in full - also the lift from Stechleberg to Murren - so if commuting down a lot that is a factor in a Swiss Pass (or a Berner Oberland Pass or Jungfraubahn Pass).

joan

PalenQ, thanks for the heads up on the rail passes. But of course I am confused. May I pick your train-brain in more detail? What would you purchase for the following, which pass or point-to-point?:

Day 1, Zurich airport to Murren.
Day 2-3-4, Breakfast via cable car to Schiltorn; hike/cable car from Murren to Allmendhubel to waterfall to Gimmelwald (as described by Steves); cost and weather permitting, train to Jungfraujoch. According to your previous post, the Swiss Pass should cover this part, correct?
Day 5, Murren to Colmar (plus taxi to Riquewihr).
Day 9, travel from Riquewihr to Cochem (by boat or train or combo?)
Day 13, travel from Cochem to Belgium.
Day 17, travel from Belgium to Amsterdam.
Day 21, Amsterdam to airport.

Thank you kindly for any and all tips. I started reading maninseat61 website but gosh it's confusing...

PalenQ

I would look at the Swiss Transfer Ticket with a Half-Fare Card for Switzerland and just do point to points on the others - get discounted tickets way in advance and save a ton.

Swiss Transfer Ticket gives you two train tickets from any airport or border station to any place in Switzerland - Murren in your case - then a trip out to any border or airport - need not be the same you came into - fully flexible get off the plane, hop on the train (to Interlaken-Ost where you change for Luaterbrunnen where you change to Grutschalp by cable where you change to train to Murren!- all changes really easy and smooth!)

And then a train trip back to Basel - from where regional trains go the short ways to Colmar, France.

And with the Swiss Transfer Ticket you can also buy a Half-Fare Card for 50% off - about $65 if bought in the U.S. or similar if bought there I would think - oddly enough prices for Swiss passes and tickets like this can be cheaper if bought in the U.S. for some reason - often the case the past several years so check prices on both ends.

No boats from Riquewehr which does have train service to Germany though - take the train to Strasbourg - shuttle train across the Rhine to Germany then a train to Koblenz and change for Cochem - www.bahn.de/en for tickets and advance discounts for the German portion - French portion is by regional trains with a flat fare.

From Cochem head to Luxembourg for trains to any Belgian local.

So I would only look at the Swiss Transfer Ticket and no multi-country railpass.

joan

PalenQ: Thank you Thank you Thank you!

I've also been reading your advice re Belgium on another recent thread, and I'm leaning toward Brugges (your 99% of people love it comment did the trick, after you steered us correctly towards Amboise last year).

PalenQ

Thanks - Amboise is another place most love but some say it a tourist trap - me I rather like it and rather like seeing other tourists from all over Europe as well.

PalenQ

Day 17, travel from Belgium to Amsterdam..

check www.thalys.com for deep discounted tickets from Brussels and Antwerp or All Belgian Stations (ABS fare that you can buy with a Thalys ticket for a few euros extra and lets you travel on any train from or to any Thalys station you use within 24 (48?) hours - can be as cheap as 29 euros IME but those tickets are sold in limited numbers and can sell out weeks/months ahead of time - early bird gets the worm.