Missypie's Trip to Germany with Teens
Jul 22nd, 2008, 11:52 AM
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Missypie's Trip to Germany with Teens
We just returned from a great trip to Germany. Cast of characters: Husband, me, son 17, daughter 15, daughter 12. It's going to be difficult to get used to Texas again-it's about 40 degrees or so warmer!
DAY 1-2: Travel to St. Goar
We got a late start to Frankfurt-the plane was ready to taxi when it was called back to the gate. They discovered that the plane was too heavy and had to take on more fuel! The movie system was broken on the plane, so no movies the whole flight, with no appologies. (I dislike American Airlines more and more every time I fly it.) It also took a bit longer than expected to find our rental car...we went to two Europecar counters before we found the "main" one (although the other two were just as large as the "main" one.) As feared, the Mercedes E class wagon "or similar" I had reserved turned out to be an Audi6. I felt very sorry for the kids, as the space in the back seat was quite tight. My husband (the driver) appreciated the power of the car. It was really too small for our family BUT way too big for the tiny streets on which we would be driving.
Driving was pretty stressful, what with never having N, S, E or W on the signs, trying to figure out what city to drive towards, etc. There were times when Husband would have to be backing down little streets because there was not room to turn around. The navigation part was quite stressful for me. I don't think we'll be driving in Europe again any time soon (around $160 to fill up with petrol each time + high stress level), but on this trip, it was about the only way to get to everywhere we wanted to go. Note about driving mountain roads: Often they are less than two lanes wide-you just pray that no one is barelling down the mountain at the same time you are going up. Unless this sounds good to you, I'd advise you to stick with public transportation where possible!
I was using driving directions from viaMichelin which worked okay once I got used to them. There was a crucial transposition of road numbers on the viaMichelin directions coming out of Frankfut, which caused us to get to St. Goar in a VERY odd way...we missed scenic Highway 9 altogether and got to Koblenz on the EAST side and then drove south! Had I been home, I would have recognize that the mistake was just a typo on the instructions, but I don't have all their highway numbers memorized, thus the error.
Anyway, we finally got to St. Goar, after a quick stop in Boppard. We stayed at the Burch Hotel zur Loreley. They have a flat with three bedrooms, two baths, full kitchen, living room and balcony - a steal at 128 euro per night for the 5 of us....very roomy..views of two castles. The one draw back: four flights up a spiral staircase-no lift!
We ate lunch at the Hotel am Markt in St. Goar...pretty good, but on later reflection, I think the schnitzel was of the premade/frozen variety. We walked up to the ruined Reinfels castle. It took a bit of time to get oriented on our walking tour (from the Rick Steves guide) but it was neat to see and imagine what the world was like way back when. It was kind of rainy, but the views of the Rhine were still great.
On the way back to the flat we got pastries/cake, then unpacked and ate our treats. Then, we basically waited for it to get dark! We were so tired...the girls played cards, I unpacked and sat and looked at the castle from the balcony, the guys dozed, we watched track on TV....our goal was to stay awake until 9:30 pm (still light, however) and most of us made it.
As an aside, if you are trying to figure out where to stay on the Rhine, I'd recommend St. Goar or Bacharach or maybe Boppard. Bingen looks a bit industrial.
DAY 1-2: Travel to St. Goar
We got a late start to Frankfurt-the plane was ready to taxi when it was called back to the gate. They discovered that the plane was too heavy and had to take on more fuel! The movie system was broken on the plane, so no movies the whole flight, with no appologies. (I dislike American Airlines more and more every time I fly it.) It also took a bit longer than expected to find our rental car...we went to two Europecar counters before we found the "main" one (although the other two were just as large as the "main" one.) As feared, the Mercedes E class wagon "or similar" I had reserved turned out to be an Audi6. I felt very sorry for the kids, as the space in the back seat was quite tight. My husband (the driver) appreciated the power of the car. It was really too small for our family BUT way too big for the tiny streets on which we would be driving.
Driving was pretty stressful, what with never having N, S, E or W on the signs, trying to figure out what city to drive towards, etc. There were times when Husband would have to be backing down little streets because there was not room to turn around. The navigation part was quite stressful for me. I don't think we'll be driving in Europe again any time soon (around $160 to fill up with petrol each time + high stress level), but on this trip, it was about the only way to get to everywhere we wanted to go. Note about driving mountain roads: Often they are less than two lanes wide-you just pray that no one is barelling down the mountain at the same time you are going up. Unless this sounds good to you, I'd advise you to stick with public transportation where possible!
I was using driving directions from viaMichelin which worked okay once I got used to them. There was a crucial transposition of road numbers on the viaMichelin directions coming out of Frankfut, which caused us to get to St. Goar in a VERY odd way...we missed scenic Highway 9 altogether and got to Koblenz on the EAST side and then drove south! Had I been home, I would have recognize that the mistake was just a typo on the instructions, but I don't have all their highway numbers memorized, thus the error.
Anyway, we finally got to St. Goar, after a quick stop in Boppard. We stayed at the Burch Hotel zur Loreley. They have a flat with three bedrooms, two baths, full kitchen, living room and balcony - a steal at 128 euro per night for the 5 of us....very roomy..views of two castles. The one draw back: four flights up a spiral staircase-no lift!
We ate lunch at the Hotel am Markt in St. Goar...pretty good, but on later reflection, I think the schnitzel was of the premade/frozen variety. We walked up to the ruined Reinfels castle. It took a bit of time to get oriented on our walking tour (from the Rick Steves guide) but it was neat to see and imagine what the world was like way back when. It was kind of rainy, but the views of the Rhine were still great.
On the way back to the flat we got pastries/cake, then unpacked and ate our treats. Then, we basically waited for it to get dark! We were so tired...the girls played cards, I unpacked and sat and looked at the castle from the balcony, the guys dozed, we watched track on TV....our goal was to stay awake until 9:30 pm (still light, however) and most of us made it.
As an aside, if you are trying to figure out where to stay on the Rhine, I'd recommend St. Goar or Bacharach or maybe Boppard. Bingen looks a bit industrial.
Jul 22nd, 2008, 12:59 PM
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missy, glad you arrived back home to this HOT Texas weather safely.
Re the stressful navigating, I certainly can feel for you because that was always my job and I was not very good at it. LOL. Thank goodness we bought a GPS that we took on our last trip to Germany. It is the best money we've ever spent for a trip! I will never go on another vacation without one!
Looking forward to hearing more about your trip.
Re the stressful navigating, I certainly can feel for you because that was always my job and I was not very good at it. LOL. Thank goodness we bought a GPS that we took on our last trip to Germany. It is the best money we've ever spent for a trip! I will never go on another vacation without one!
Looking forward to hearing more about your trip.
Jul 23rd, 2008, 01:51 AM
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Nice start to your report missypie! Looking forward to more. The costs for a family of five are so high, even when trying to travel economically, as you are. It's worth it however just to get out of the heat of Texas for a few weeks. So many Fodorites posting on the Europe forums are from Texas. We should do a thread to find out which cities we all live in. A gentleman has been emailing me about doing a trip report for my website. In his most recent email he listed the city where he lives. I told him we should get together and talk about his trip report over a Bier since he lives less than five minutes from me. 
Ben
Ben
Jul 23rd, 2008, 04:44 AM
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We took out TomTom GPS on our last driving trip to Spain-Portugal and from now on...WE WIL NOT LEAVE FOR EUROPE WITHOUT IT! Priceless. It even warned us of upcoming "speed traps"; definitely worth every penny.
Missypie-- I'd love to hear from your children how was the trip! By the way, agree with you on American Airlines; the absolute worst airline.
Missypie-- I'd love to hear from your children how was the trip! By the way, agree with you on American Airlines; the absolute worst airline.
Jul 23rd, 2008, 05:06 AM
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missypie - great start. Too bad they couldn't have fixed the IFE while they were refueling. Looking forward to more. Germany's a favorite of ours (well, at least mine).
Robyn - thanks for the safe wishes. Have had some real storms and rain here in Houston this morning from the outer bands, but we desparately needed it. We're praying for our neighbors to the south.
Robyn - thanks for the safe wishes. Have had some real storms and rain here in Houston this morning from the outer bands, but we desparately needed it. We're praying for our neighbors to the south.
Jul 23rd, 2008, 05:33 AM
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I traveled to Germany and Austria with three teenagers last July. I can't wait to see how your trip went. We traveled mostly by train and only rented a car for three days while in the Reutte/Fuessen area. But, our car had gps which was helpful. By the way, I am from the Houston area.
Jul 23rd, 2008, 05:55 AM
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Regarding driving in Germany: I think your experience is pretty typical. Most Americans - maybe Texans in particular? - are very tied to cars and find it tough to visualize carless travel. They don't understand that Germany has about 6,000 train stations in an area about half the size of Texas and that there's almost nowhere you can't get to by public transport.
Besides the navigating issues, a car further complicates the decision making; suddenly you've got 4 or 5 people who want to alter the day's travel plans. The kids are crammed in the back. They're spilling food and drinks on a car you may have to pay to have cleaned up. Once in town, you've got to figure out the parking hours and fee system. And you have to worry about scraping a bumper and about the radar guns that will send you a belated and expensive souvenir of your trip to Germany.
To me, that's all work - not vacation. Germany has great cars and great freeways, but it's just a lot more relaxing to avoid the traffic jams and just get on the train, break out a picnic, maybe have some wine, and enjoy the company of your spouse, significant other, or family while you watch the scenery go by. It's also the "green" thing to do; we Americans already support the OPEC nations adequately when we're at home.
Looking forward to the rest of your report!
Besides the navigating issues, a car further complicates the decision making; suddenly you've got 4 or 5 people who want to alter the day's travel plans. The kids are crammed in the back. They're spilling food and drinks on a car you may have to pay to have cleaned up. Once in town, you've got to figure out the parking hours and fee system. And you have to worry about scraping a bumper and about the radar guns that will send you a belated and expensive souvenir of your trip to Germany.
To me, that's all work - not vacation. Germany has great cars and great freeways, but it's just a lot more relaxing to avoid the traffic jams and just get on the train, break out a picnic, maybe have some wine, and enjoy the company of your spouse, significant other, or family while you watch the scenery go by. It's also the "green" thing to do; we Americans already support the OPEC nations adequately when we're at home.
Looking forward to the rest of your report!
Jul 23rd, 2008, 06:12 AM
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We are very far from where Dolly is landing this morning (Texas is one big state) and I wish those in south Texas well also. We may not even get any rain from it! Back to the report.
DAY 3: Cologne, Castles and a Surprise! We had two more days in the Rhine Valley and I thought it better to see Cologne Cathedral on a Saturday than to wait out even more masses on a Sunday. The kids were duly impressed with the cathedral, esp. DS17 who really wanted to see it. Th windows were fabulous. I do agree with some critics, however, that the design on the new window looks as if it could have been generated by an amateur on a computer. At one point we were shooed out for a mass; we climbed the tower, which was quite an effort. By the time we climbed down, the service was over and we could finish looking around.
Everyone was hungry and it was getting late so we copped out and ate at the nearby Burger King. I had a cheeseburger from the Euro menu and paid for it with gastrointestinal distress for the rest of the day. I think we were the only Americans in the BK; it was funny to observe the Indian guy next to me trying to order in English from the German cashier. They did pretty well until he needed to decide whether he wanted caramel sauce on his sundae. I don't think he knew what he was ordering but he went for it.
We walked around a bit and then, unfortunately, had to leave the city because we were trying to get to Marksburg Castle before the last tour of the day. (I HATE to rush through a city, but due to lots of other time commitments this summer, we had several days less than I would have liked.)
After a couple of wrong turns we arrived at Marksburg Castle with about 5 minutes to spare before that last tour. The tour was in German. My husband asked the guide, in German, whether she could do a bit of it in English, and she declined. I think that of about 20 people on the tour, three spoke German. The guide must have realized this when no one was laughing at her jokes, because after about 15 minutes she started giving short English explanations in every room.
The castle was quite interesting. As it was built for protection and defense (rather than for princely comfort), it was a nice contrast to what we would later see in southern Bavaria. (We all got a kick out of the bathroom just off the dining room that locked from the outside!) On the way down to the parking lot, we chatted with the other big group of Americans who happened to also be from our area and of course, we knew some of the same people.
Our next destination was an "up close" view of the Lorilei. We followed the twisty, narrow road, guided by the signs up to the top, not wanting to go to the visitor's center, but just to admire the view. When we arrived, there were police everywhere and it seemed to be quite busy. An officer directed us to a rather distant lot...well, we thought, it IS a Saturday. We turned down a narrow lane, with cars heavy in front and behind us. Then we we able to see THOUSANDS of cars, parked all around in fields, with no way to turn around. (The surprise.) When we arrived in the lot/field, we told the guy we had made a terrible mistake and were obviously in the wrong place. He said this was an open air Jack Johnson concert, but laughingly told us to drive over and park by the 3 other cars "that have the same problem as you." All of us were laughing so hard-including the other lost souls in the other three cars. After a while the guy gave directions to one driver and told the rest of us to follow him and we made our way though fields and finally to the road down the mountain.
From there we drove to the parking lot from which you can walk out to a point and see the rather new Lorilei statue. We talked to a couple who were originally from Poland and yes, their teens were up above at the Jack Johnson concert. (If you go to Jack Johnson's web site, you can see a slide show of the big event.) The kids skipped rocks in the Rhine for a while.
We took the car ferry to the other side of the river and drove to Bacharach for dinner. We ate at Altes Haus. Although it was not all that late and the restaurant was not all that crowded, the waitress seemed pretty exasperated at our arrival. Several of us had the wine cream soup and it was to die for....probably the best thing I ate in Germany. The girls ordered schnitzel and that arrived first. About 10 minutes later, son's and husband's food arrived. About 10 minutes after that, my food arrived and what was wild about that is that I ordered a cheese plate...there was nothing even to cook! But, the food was very good.
DAY 3: Cologne, Castles and a Surprise! We had two more days in the Rhine Valley and I thought it better to see Cologne Cathedral on a Saturday than to wait out even more masses on a Sunday. The kids were duly impressed with the cathedral, esp. DS17 who really wanted to see it. Th windows were fabulous. I do agree with some critics, however, that the design on the new window looks as if it could have been generated by an amateur on a computer. At one point we were shooed out for a mass; we climbed the tower, which was quite an effort. By the time we climbed down, the service was over and we could finish looking around.
Everyone was hungry and it was getting late so we copped out and ate at the nearby Burger King. I had a cheeseburger from the Euro menu and paid for it with gastrointestinal distress for the rest of the day. I think we were the only Americans in the BK; it was funny to observe the Indian guy next to me trying to order in English from the German cashier. They did pretty well until he needed to decide whether he wanted caramel sauce on his sundae. I don't think he knew what he was ordering but he went for it.
We walked around a bit and then, unfortunately, had to leave the city because we were trying to get to Marksburg Castle before the last tour of the day. (I HATE to rush through a city, but due to lots of other time commitments this summer, we had several days less than I would have liked.)
After a couple of wrong turns we arrived at Marksburg Castle with about 5 minutes to spare before that last tour. The tour was in German. My husband asked the guide, in German, whether she could do a bit of it in English, and she declined. I think that of about 20 people on the tour, three spoke German. The guide must have realized this when no one was laughing at her jokes, because after about 15 minutes she started giving short English explanations in every room.
The castle was quite interesting. As it was built for protection and defense (rather than for princely comfort), it was a nice contrast to what we would later see in southern Bavaria. (We all got a kick out of the bathroom just off the dining room that locked from the outside!) On the way down to the parking lot, we chatted with the other big group of Americans who happened to also be from our area and of course, we knew some of the same people.
Our next destination was an "up close" view of the Lorilei. We followed the twisty, narrow road, guided by the signs up to the top, not wanting to go to the visitor's center, but just to admire the view. When we arrived, there were police everywhere and it seemed to be quite busy. An officer directed us to a rather distant lot...well, we thought, it IS a Saturday. We turned down a narrow lane, with cars heavy in front and behind us. Then we we able to see THOUSANDS of cars, parked all around in fields, with no way to turn around. (The surprise.) When we arrived in the lot/field, we told the guy we had made a terrible mistake and were obviously in the wrong place. He said this was an open air Jack Johnson concert, but laughingly told us to drive over and park by the 3 other cars "that have the same problem as you." All of us were laughing so hard-including the other lost souls in the other three cars. After a while the guy gave directions to one driver and told the rest of us to follow him and we made our way though fields and finally to the road down the mountain.
From there we drove to the parking lot from which you can walk out to a point and see the rather new Lorilei statue. We talked to a couple who were originally from Poland and yes, their teens were up above at the Jack Johnson concert. (If you go to Jack Johnson's web site, you can see a slide show of the big event.) The kids skipped rocks in the Rhine for a while.
We took the car ferry to the other side of the river and drove to Bacharach for dinner. We ate at Altes Haus. Although it was not all that late and the restaurant was not all that crowded, the waitress seemed pretty exasperated at our arrival. Several of us had the wine cream soup and it was to die for....probably the best thing I ate in Germany. The girls ordered schnitzel and that arrived first. About 10 minutes later, son's and husband's food arrived. About 10 minutes after that, my food arrived and what was wild about that is that I ordered a cheese plate...there was nothing even to cook! But, the food was very good.
Jul 23rd, 2008, 06:18 AM
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Russ, we've traveled to quite a few European desintations relying solely on public transportation, but on this trip I felt we needed a car to get to many of the destinations we wanted to visit.
Jul 23rd, 2008, 06:42 AM
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Ahah, we're Texans! I guess that's why we always rent a car when we go to Germany, Austria and Switzerland! One of these days, we might decide to use the trains, but for now DH enjoys driving, especially on the autobahn if you can imagine! Since we now have the GPS, I'm happy to let him keep driving.
Being the photographer that he is, he also likes being able to pull the car over and take photos whenever the mood strikes him!
Being the photographer that he is, he also likes being able to pull the car over and take photos whenever the mood strikes him!
Jul 23rd, 2008, 07:24 AM
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Thanks for your trip report. I always enjoy reading them and thinking about my similar trips and experiences.
First, the movies on the flight. I wish they didn't have them. We traveled with our kids and the younger boy (12) watched them instead of getting the sleep he needed. He was like a zombie the first day in Europe.
Second, the rental car. We got a seven passenger Renault Grand Scenic II. European cars are much smaller than we are used to. A seven passenger car worked well for five - mom, me, 16 and 12 boy, and daughter 8 with one carry-on each. If we had been adults or had more luggage, we probably would have wanted a van.
Third, GPS. I have driven in Germany and Austria without difficulty. My German is okay and I found the signage to be logical. After driving in Italy, we bought a TomTom 920 to use at home and in Europe. I like buying it here, so you learn how to use the features, and taking it with you on vacations.
First, the movies on the flight. I wish they didn't have them. We traveled with our kids and the younger boy (12) watched them instead of getting the sleep he needed. He was like a zombie the first day in Europe.
Second, the rental car. We got a seven passenger Renault Grand Scenic II. European cars are much smaller than we are used to. A seven passenger car worked well for five - mom, me, 16 and 12 boy, and daughter 8 with one carry-on each. If we had been adults or had more luggage, we probably would have wanted a van.
Third, GPS. I have driven in Germany and Austria without difficulty. My German is okay and I found the signage to be logical. After driving in Italy, we bought a TomTom 920 to use at home and in Europe. I like buying it here, so you learn how to use the features, and taking it with you on vacations.
Jul 23rd, 2008, 07:28 AM
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Yeah, I had posted earlier about the rental car issue. Neither my husband nor I drive a stick, so we were limited to automatics. The lowest price I could get on a minivan (even using all the tips from Fodorites) was around $1450 and the station wagon was about $500 less.
Jul 23rd, 2008, 07:33 AM
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I should have added, with five it's often a much better deal to travel by car than by rail. Rail is only cheap when using the beautiful weekend or lander passes.
If you have the time, leasing costs a fraction of renting. Leasing is from one of the French manufacturers, Renault or Peugeot, and is for a minimum of 17 days.
If you have the time, leasing costs a fraction of renting. Leasing is from one of the French manufacturers, Renault or Peugeot, and is for a minimum of 17 days.
Jul 23rd, 2008, 07:38 AM
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I would have loved to have had 17 days! But alas, I have to make a living to pay for the time I had! And you're right about having to buy 5 train tickets....when a $20 ticket turns into $100, the car doesn't seem like such a bad idea. But I do love the availablity of public transportation in European countries and get angry when politicans accuse us of being "addicted to foreign oil." Well, if we're addicted, who pushed the drug by funding highways instead of mass transit? Rant over.
Jul 23rd, 2008, 07:56 AM
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Hi Missypie,
Thanks for taking the time to write about your trip. We also liked the Zum Hechten in Fuessen. We always rent a car and love it, even when we get a bit lost. Mountain roads... that's a big reason I like driving.
Paul
Thanks for taking the time to write about your trip. We also liked the Zum Hechten in Fuessen. We always rent a car and love it, even when we get a bit lost. Mountain roads... that's a big reason I like driving.
Paul
Jul 23rd, 2008, 08:06 AM
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DAY 4: A little Mosel and some more Rhine. With only one more day in the area, we wanted to do two things: See Burg Eltz and cruise the Rhine. I wish we would have been able to do the Rhine Cruise first, but the first boat didn't leave St. Goar until 10:30 am. We drove to the Mosel. I was worried because we were low on petrol and I had heard that gas stations would be closed on Sunday; not to worry, many were open. (After the first fill up, husband asked how much we'd just spent. I told him he really didn't want to know, but when he pressed me I admitted that it was about $160! That is when you have to just not think about it.)
As we drove through numerous small (non river) towns, we were taken with how neat and tidy every single house was. Where were the houses with weeds and couches in the yard?
We got to the river, found the nearest bridge, drove up a mountain, parked the car in the lot and hiked down to Burg Eltz (knowing the hike up would be challenging.) What a fabulous castle!!! I guess it doesn't get the same press as Ludwig's because it is still in private hands, or it may be harder to get to, but whatever, if you're in the area, DO go to the trouble to get there. It's really three castles built together like townhomes, originally owned by three brothers. Apparently, an elderly countess (or duchess?) still has apartments there. It was a lot of fun to go through the rooms and levels. (I know we'd all be up a creek in case of the fire, but I did find myself being glad that the castles in Germany don't enforce the "two staircases" rule that historical sights in the US do.)
After touring the castle, we walked down to a little terrace and had a pretty nice, reasonably priced lunch. We hiked up to the parking lot and after driving a short ways along the river, headed back to St. Goar. Had it been up to me I would have skipped the Rhine cruise and would have driven along the Mosel sampling wine along the way, but I was outnumbered 4 to 1.
Back in St. Goar, we cruised only as far as Bacharach, which was redundant, but it was too late in the day to go further. It was a relaxing trip, almost to the point of drowsiness. We had about 40 minutes to walk around Bacharach again; we had gelato. I had the Rhiesling gelato which was so refreshing. The return boat had a bit of playground equipment, so DD12 played on the slide and brother and sister finally got bored enough to join her.
A few gift shops were open in St. Goar so we bought a couple of Christmas decorations. Some sort of alcholic sample was offered at every store...white wine at most but peach brandy at one. (I thought that the peach brandy tasted exactly like Children's Benedryl.) We ate dinner at the hotel, which was fine but not life changing.
As we drove through numerous small (non river) towns, we were taken with how neat and tidy every single house was. Where were the houses with weeds and couches in the yard?
We got to the river, found the nearest bridge, drove up a mountain, parked the car in the lot and hiked down to Burg Eltz (knowing the hike up would be challenging.) What a fabulous castle!!! I guess it doesn't get the same press as Ludwig's because it is still in private hands, or it may be harder to get to, but whatever, if you're in the area, DO go to the trouble to get there. It's really three castles built together like townhomes, originally owned by three brothers. Apparently, an elderly countess (or duchess?) still has apartments there. It was a lot of fun to go through the rooms and levels. (I know we'd all be up a creek in case of the fire, but I did find myself being glad that the castles in Germany don't enforce the "two staircases" rule that historical sights in the US do.)
After touring the castle, we walked down to a little terrace and had a pretty nice, reasonably priced lunch. We hiked up to the parking lot and after driving a short ways along the river, headed back to St. Goar. Had it been up to me I would have skipped the Rhine cruise and would have driven along the Mosel sampling wine along the way, but I was outnumbered 4 to 1.
Back in St. Goar, we cruised only as far as Bacharach, which was redundant, but it was too late in the day to go further. It was a relaxing trip, almost to the point of drowsiness. We had about 40 minutes to walk around Bacharach again; we had gelato. I had the Rhiesling gelato which was so refreshing. The return boat had a bit of playground equipment, so DD12 played on the slide and brother and sister finally got bored enough to join her.
A few gift shops were open in St. Goar so we bought a couple of Christmas decorations. Some sort of alcholic sample was offered at every store...white wine at most but peach brandy at one. (I thought that the peach brandy tasted exactly like Children's Benedryl.) We ate dinner at the hotel, which was fine but not life changing.
