RCLCOLPB

We are going to have the opportunity to visit northern Spain and probably southern France, with the following constraints:

My wife, 23-year old son, and I will probably be arriving in Bilbao on Wednesday morning, 9/2, and departing Barcelona on Sunday, 9/13. Our 26-year old daughter and her boyfriend, who live in Brussels, will be joining us for a 3-day weekend—probably arriving in Bilbao late on Thursday, 9/3, and departing from Toulouse late afternoon Sunday, 9/6. Taking account of the interests of the group as a whole, we probably won’t be taking long or challenging hikes, but short ones would be nice, and museum visits will be limited and relatively short.

I know I have a lot more reading to do, including all of the great ideas on this site as well as Maribel’s wonderful guide. But before locking in these flights, I wanted to get your opinion as to whether an itinerary something like the following would make sense. I would also really appreciate any specific suggestions on itinerary changes or differences in time allocation, as well as comments that this entire itinerary seems crazy.

Wed. 9/2: Arrive in Bilbao, visit Altamira and El Castillo caves, stay in Santillana.

Thurs 9/3: Drive and do a little hiking in Picos de Europa (e.g, drive to Potes and Fuente De, and if time circle around to Riano and Cangas. Stay in Bilbao. Daughter and boyfriend arrive late at night at Bilbao airport.

Fri 9/4: Bilbao, Guggenheim, Museo de Bellas Artes (brief visits to both museums), Old Quarter. Drive to and stay in San Sebastian?

Sat 9/5: Visit Hondarribia and some part of French Basque country/Pyrenees. Suggestions? Stay in Pau?

Sun 9/6: Drive to Toulouse, perhaps via Gascogne, or just directly to Toulouse and spend some time in Toulouse (I know Sunday is not ideal). Take daughter and boyfriend to airport late in afternoon. Drive to Carcassonne and stay overnight there.

Mon. 9/7: Drive to Figueres, perhaps via a scenic route through the Pyrenees (e.g., via Col de Puymorens, Olot?), or perhaps by Peyrepertuse. Visit Cadaques or go to Dali Museum if there is time. Eat and stay in Figueres?

Tu 9/8: Go to Dali Museum and/or Cadaques if didn’t go the day before. Drive to Barcelona via Girona, perhaps drive between Sant Feliu/Tossa/Lloret, drop off car in Barcelona. Stay in Barcelona.

We 9/9 through Sat 9/12: Stay in Barcelona. Probably take a day trip one day to Montserrat.

Sun 9/13: Fly home midday.

Various possible modifications that occur to me include:
--Spending one more day west of Bilbao before my daughter arrives, with her arriving Friday evening and departing Monday late afternoon from Toulouse, which would result in one fewer day in Barcelona. If so, where would you spend the time?
--Spending a day getting a taste of Dordogne after my daughter departs, which would result in one fewer day in Barcelona.
--Spending an extra day in Pyrenees or elsewhere between Toulouse and Figueres, with one fewer day in Barcelona.
--Skipping France and making my daughter take a 6 AM flight from Bilbao to Brussels (there are no flights late in the day). If we don’t go to France, would you fly from Bilbao to Barcelona, or are there interesting places (e.g., Zaragoza) and/or pretty drives (e.g., Spanish Pyrenees) that would argue for driving?

Thanks very much for any help you can offer!

Len

cova

I don´t see feasible your schedule for the 3rd of september, unless you plan to drive the whole day and not get out of the car.

I have been countless times to Picos, and we have done something similar a couple of times, but ... we slept in Arenas de Cabrales, walk up and down the Cares, drove over to Cangas de Onis, stop there for an hour or so, drive up the Ponton pass and sleep, very late, in some village in Palencia. The following day we would drive down to Potes from San Glorio. My parents, my uncles and now ourselves know pretty well the roads and what we can encounter on the road, so it is not a big problem ... but when it´s your first time there, you must be slower and it can be tiring.

I would suggest either go to Potes and Fuente De, and stop in San Vicente de la Barquera on the way back, or go to Cangas de Onís and Covadonga, get one of the buses to the Lakes (the walks there are pretty easy and it can be lovely in september), visit the Santina ... You could stop for a quick visit to Ribadesella in the way back, and then drive back to Bilbao. The motorway is quite good.

Regarding the Pyrenees, I like Jaca a lot, and you can also think about Ainsa or Ordesa National Park.

Rgds, Covadonga

Maribel

Hi Len,
Just a general observation before addressing your specific questions-

I've done all the following of your proposed itinerary (save the city of Toulouse) but on a series of trips, rather than in one fell swoop. This seems to me far, far, far too much and too rushed for 11 days. Your memories would just be a blur.

On 9/2, if you're arriving in Bilbao after an overnight flight, you will be tired and want to rest rather than jump in the car and try to make the guided tours of both the Neo Caves in Santillana and El Castillo (no quick in and out in either). And for both you should have advanced reservations, as they're capacity controlled. ( I did both last summer on two separate days).

As to the full circuit on 9/3:

Santillana-hiking in Picos (no "quick" hikes)-Fuente Dé funicular (which is the raison d'etre for Fuente Dé)-Riaño (the drive Potes to Riaño is hair raising/extremely slow)-Cangas-Bilbao
just isn't feasible if you want to enjoy your day.

Mountain passes galore and 2 excruciatingly slow drives through narrow, sinuous gorges-the Desfiladero de la Hermida and Desfiladero de los Beyos. A look at the twisting yellow roads on Michelin map 572 Asturias-Cantabria will give you pause. Please trust me.

If this were my trip, I would save the France portion through the Pays Basque and Gascony for another journey. And I spent 8 very full days days in Dordogne and didn't see all that I wanted to see-wished I had alloted another week!

I strongly suggest that your daughter return to Brussels from Bilbao so that you as a family can spend a relaxing weekend in the Bilbao-San Sebastián-Hondarribia vicinity. Your son, daughter and her boyfriend, I'm sure will simply love the vibrancy and the beautiful beaches of San Sebastián.

As to the journey from Bilbao to Barcelona, this can take 6 hrs. without touring stops, a few days, a week or an entire month. There is a great deal to see and explore in the Navarran, Aragonese, Catalonian Pyrenees in the gorgeous valleys above the autoroute to Zaragoza.

With only 11 days, I would limit this trip to the Basque Country on both sides and Barcelona, probably flying between Bilbao-Barcelona, so as to have proper time to enjoy your final city.

Just a few thoughts...

anneeby

I would spend more time in San Sebastian. Sept. is a warm beautiful time to go and there is something for everyone. We love the Hotel de Londres y de Inglaterra.

Maribel

Correction, Len, to my post.

With just 11 days, if it were my trip, I would limit it to Spain's Basque Country, the French Pays Basque, both coastal and interior, then Barcelona, either driving with an overnight in the Pyrenees (agree with cova on Jaca) or fly.

I'd leave Bearn, Gascony and French Catalonia for another journey (you didn't plan on the Dordogne, sorry!! misread!)

RCLCOLPB

Thanks so much for your quick and very helpful responses, all of you. I must admit that as I was typing out the possible itinerary I was thinking much the way you are, Maribel. We get so little vacation time that I was tempted to fit in more, but I think you are definitely right. (I did mention Dordogne as a possible add-on for a ludicrous one day, so you are not wrong.)

So we are going to take your advice and tell my daughter to fly back at 6 AM, and we will fly from Bilbao to Barcelona.

I am looking forward to reading you guides in detail, Maribel, but recognizing that we still don't have nearly enough time to do either area justice, how would you divide time between the 2? How would you use the time in the general vicinity of Bilbao, recognizing that we need to meet my daughter late on the night of Thursday 9/3 in Bilbao, and stay in Bilbao Sunday night so they can get to the airport early the next morning. Or they could arrive and depart one day later (they only have one weekday off from work).

My daughter and her husband are alergic to anything overly touristy, so I would definitely not take them to Santillana (do you think we should also avoid it for that reason, though we are much more tolerant of fellow tourists?). They really like less touristy cities as well as walking in mountains, etc. We all love to eat, and we are trying to keep hotels relatively affordable, particularly as we need 2 rooms (3 when my daughter is with us). My son is not wild about museums.

Thanks again for all of your help!

Len

ekscrunchy

I would eliminate Santillana.

It is achingly beautiful but was packed with tourists when we were there, even in May. And we did not find great food there, either.

Maribel

Hi Len,
I understand completely the urge to fit as much in as possible into the meager vacation time that we have. I do know very well that urge!

About Santillana,
Your daughter's and husband's allergy would certainly be triggered with a day trip to Santillana now, I'm afraid!

I used to laud it here as one of Spain's most beautiful, charming medieval villages, and while the beauty is still apparent after the multitude of souvenir, tee-shirt shops close and bus tours leave, during the day, sadly, it has become rather Disney-fied, like Carcassonne but on a smaller scale. At night it returns to its more dignified, untarnished movie set look.

Last summer I was crushed to see that the most ancient, emblematic and picture postcard photographed half-timbered home there had opened a tee-shirt shop in its portal. Glad I have photos of it the way it used to be!

Nonetheless, I always enjoy seeing the Romanesque Colegiata with its amazing capitals in the cloister and the Museo Diocesano at the other end of the village. And the Neo Caves at the Altamira Museum. So yes, you and your wife should go if you have the time. It would be a 90 min. drive from Bilbao, more or less, says www.viamichelin.com

Because we arrive in Bilbao after an overnight flight, when heading out of the city, we venture no further than Liérganes or the Trasmiera area (just east of Santander). But if you arrive after a short flight, you and your wife could go further on to Santillana. The area of lush rolling hills between Santillana and Comillas also makes for a very pretty drive.

Those who have seen Lascaux II won't be so impressed as the Altamira replica caves are not as authentic in look or feel, but the museum displays are quite interesting. But even for Sept. I'd book ahead at http://museodealtamira.mcu.es/venta_anticipada.html
to avoid standing in long lines. With locator number, you go straight inside to the info booth.

I do promise your daughter and husband will love San Sebastián-everyone does, particularly in September, a great time to be there, before the Film Festival.

Since they like non-touristy areas, with them, I'd visit the Urdaibai Biosphere Reserve between Bilbao and San Sebastián.

The virtual cave visit, with 3 D googles, of Santimamiñe (in Kortezubi) has really been well done-has been lauded as a model for replica palaeolithic cave art visits. Must pre-book via email at [email protected]
More info here:
www.bizkaia.net/home2/buscador/resultados.asp

And a visit there can be combined with a brisk hike down to Agustín Ibarrola's amazing Painted Forest of Oma (drive up to the top of the entrance, park and walk down the steep staircase into the forest).

I always suggest a visit to the Peace Museum in Gernika as well. Even if you're not wild about museums, this is a very moving experience.
www.peacemuseumgernika.org


And the coastal drive north of Gernika, from the authentic fishing port of Bermeo to the beach town, txakolí-producing Bakio is quite pretty with opportunities for nice walks, including the hike up to the island sanctuary of San Juan Gaztelugatxe, all 231 steps worth, from bridge to the church! There is even a paved coastal walkway from Forua, above Gernika, all the way to Bermeo, along the sea. Great way to walk off lunch.

The Urdaibai offers great sights, food, lodging, walks in a completely non-touristy environment. We're staying for a week there in an agroturism home in late July after our week in Hondarribia-San Sebastián.

Or the coastal drive Zumaia-Getaria- Zarautz, just west of San Sebastián is also quite scenic, the prettiest section for me.

As for inexpensive lodging, in Bilbao with a car, the hotel we use for an easy in and out and garage parking is the Abba Parque with rooms under 80.
www.abbaparquehotel.com

There's also the Petit Palace Arana for about 70 or sister across the bridge, High Tech La Ribera for 80, but not as handy for easy in and out with car to do day trips.
www.hthoteles.com


In San Sebastián, a great value is the simple but pleasant Hostal Alemana, just 2 blocks from La Concha.
www.hostalalemana.com

members of the Pensiones con encanto group, like the Kursaal
www.pensionesconencanto.com

or the Pensión Bellas Artes
www.pension-bellasartes.com

I book the De Londres y de Inglaterra a lot, but their beach side rooms don't come cheaply, The Hotel Niza doesn't guarantee a bay view room, and rates for Sept. are 145-don't know if that's relatively affordable for your group or not.

Maribel

Sorry ekscrunchy,
Didn't see your post while composing my very long winded one!

No, no great food to be found in Santillana. If you do take a day trip, I'd go back to Bilbao for spectacular pintxos (tapas) at night!

RCLCOLPB

Thanks!--it all sounds fabulous. I am going to start reading your guides tonight, Maribel.

If it were you, how would you divide up time (11 full days, including the day we arrive overnight from the US) between the Basque and surrounding areas (e.g., Picos de Europa) and the Barcelona area (probably including 1 or 2 day trips out of the city)? We have been in other parts of Spain, but never in these 2.

Would you be inclined to stay in Bilbao the whole time before we fly to Barcelona (given that we have to stay there 2 nights), or move around a lot more?

Len

Michael

Unless the flights are already set, I would do a RT from Brussels to Bilbao and simply stay in Spanish Basque country for that long weekend. Driving to Toulouse will burn up a good deal of time. And then I would stick to the Spanish side of the Pyrenees while going to Barcelona.

Maribel

Hi Len,
You did decide to fly from Bilbao to Barcelona, correct?

With 11 days and your first one arriving after a transatlantic, overnight flight, I'd stay put in Bilbao on 9/2 and depending on your energy, use that time to see/do *some* of the following:

Guggenheim

cross the Zubizuri bridge and over to take the red Artxanda funicular and stroll in the park-nice views

Museum of Fine Arts (a real gem)-but without your son, who doesn't love art museums

A stroll down the Gran Vía to the bridge that will take you across to the Casco Viejo (Old Quarter)

Basque Ethnographic Museum, as an introduction to Basque culture

stroll around the Casco Viejo, have some pintxos, sit on an outdoor terrace at the Plaza Nueva

or...
get on the metro and alight at the Areeta station and walk down to the really neat hanging bridge, Puente Colgante or Puente Vizcaya, a cross between a bridge and a ferry-a suspended gondola. Your son would like this. It connects the estuary neighborhoods Las Arenas in Getxo to the fishermen's neighborhood of Portugalete, across the ría. It's a great piece of engineering.
Then take a stroll around Las Arenas beach and back on the metro.
www.punete-colgante.com

If you want to do 2 daytrips outside of Barcelona (choose amongTarragona, Girona, Figueres, Sitges, Montserrat or the Penedes wine country), I would allow 4 nights there.

For the remaining 7,
I'd do 2 in Bilbao (1st night, final night before flying to BCN),
3 in San Sebastián (for a day trip to Hondarribia and a stop in the Urdaibai between cities)
2 nights in the St-Jean-de-Luz or Biarritz area of the Pays Basque (which will be far less hectic in Sept.) to explore this beautiful, non-touristy corner of the South West of France.

If you want to cut a night from Barcelona and just do one day trip, I'd add a day to the Pays Basque (French side) for explorations into the totally non-touristy interior.

Or since San Sebastián and Biarritz are only 2 hrs. apart, just stay put in ONE base, either or, and explore both sides by car from your base, remembering that lots of valuable touring time is lost in changing locations/lodgings.

But that leaves no time for Picos de Europa in Cantabria/Asturias.

I think you need to decide between Spanish Basque Country + Picos de Europa + Barcelona or..
Spanish AND French Basque Country + Barcelona

From Bilbao to Fuente Dé (end of the road in the Cantabrian Picos) is a 3 hr. one way drive. For me, this wouldn't be a day trip, plus I'd arrive way too late to hop on the cable car without a long wait in line.
Once I'm through the slow going, narrow gorge, Desfiladero de la Garganta, I want to stay put in the gorgeous Liébana valley for a couple of days to explore and to do walks or to do a "day trip" back up through the gorge again and over to Cangas, on the Asturian side.

Sounds like the walks in Picos may be an important piece to your vacation (??)

weber6560

A couple of thoghts:

I think Bilboa is often inaccurately described - Bilbao itself is much better than thought and the Gugggenheim doesn't live up to its press. The Gehry building is amazing but the collections often strain credulity. IMO - 30 minutes looking at the outside of the building then head downtown for stylish shopping areas and good food. Or, hit the coast road toward San Sebastian and spend a day walking the villages on the coast. They are beautiful.

Also on my "overrated" list is Hondarribia. Beautiful place, some very good food, but unless you are blessed with time, I'd hold off and use that time in San Sebastian. for some reason, probably the rep of the parador, many people seem to use it as a base to see San Sebastian. IMO, "When in San Sebastian do as the San Sebastians - sleep in San Sebastian". BTW, it's certainly my favorite town in Spain and top 2-3 in Europe.

I agree re Santillana but must relate a story from 5-6 years ago: Traveling alone, Saturday night, wandered down the wide walking street roughly in from of the parador which leads into town. About a block in, on the right was a non-descript [I am trying to be kind] restaurant with windows so smoked up you couldn't see in but great laughter and sounds of a crowd coming out. My kind of place. Went in, sat at the bar. The place was packed with families having the time of there life. They all seemed to know each other. Hard to tell, but didn't see anyone who screamed "tourist" [except me]. Meat grilled on an open pit at the rear. [Hence the smoked windows}. I sat at the bar, ate my ribs, drank my wine, kept my mouth shut, and enjoyed. A wonderful oasis in a town filled with busses and tourists

ribeirasacra

I had the opportunity to visit Santillana last February. As it was off-season and found it a pleasurable location. I had read reports about the tourist business there so I felt privileged to have seen the place how it was.
I think I also eat at the same restaurant as Weber. The food was great and the bar is shared by locals and a few tourist too. I did not stay in the Paradore though. I was a bit disappointed to find out that this place as an “extension” to the rear of the village. The building is modern and there was a fire truck parked there. The radio was on ..hopefully they could not hear that in the bedrooms. If you cannot afford the Paradore there are lots of other places to lay your head.
Whilst in the area there are several other places to visit to. Like the caves and places like Comillas too
http://www.comillas.es/
http://www.santillana-del-mar.com/
It seems to me that the OP should look at their travel plans as looking through a windscreen is not so pleasant as it seems at times. Maribel has posted some excellent advice as usual.

walksntalks

It is a tight schedule. If you are going to do only one hike, I believe you would like to do it in Fuente De. Take the funicular up to the El Cable and you can walk to Horcados Rojos and back.
You will find all the details of this route here: http://www.topwalks.net/en/picos_eur...ados_rojos.htm
This hike will take you some three or four hours.
The road from Potes to Riaño is slow, but not that bad. It is 56 kilometres and it will take you more or less one hour. You should make a short stop in Puerto de San Glorio and visit the mirador (look out spot), from where you have a fantastic view over Picos de Europa. (The walk from the mirador to the top of Coriscau is a good alternative to Horcados Rojos route and a trip to Fuente De, especially if you want to save some time. You can find this route aswell from the above mentioned website.)
Driving from Riaño to Cangas de Onis is 65 kilometres and it takes more than one hour. Driving back to Bilbao 232 km takes almost three hours.
It is possible, but you will be busy.
And remember, this year the police has been very active in the Asturian part of N-634. You better follow the (partly ridiculous) speed limits between Ribadesella and San Vicente.
I've got three speeding tickets in Llanes this year...

Maribel

About Santilana del Mar-
We've visited both in summer and in November-while a visit can be far more pleasant off season, I still wish that there weren't now such a heavy proliferation of tacky souvenir shops in every portal. It makes the once picturesque Calle Cantón, which leads to the Colegiata, far less photogenic. I compare my photos of visits in the 70s, 80s and 90s to now, and my eyes see a great difference. But again, at night when shops close and buses depart, it takes on some of its once magical appearance once more. I think I'm bothered more by its "touristy-ness" now because I've seen it evolve over the years.

There are two Paradors in Santillana, the original historic Parador Gil Blas, housed in a 17th century manor home, which lies directly on the main square of the village, and the former "annex", now called the Parador de Santillana (the modern building), which lies tucked away in a quiet corner, away from the tourist fray, with its own parking lot. We've stayed in both-the annex is much quieter, while the Gil Blas (named after the protagonist of a picaresque novel) is more atmospheric.

We've also based in Comillas twice in July, frankly to be far away from the high season tourist hordes in Santillana. And that drive between the two is a lovely one.

I agree with Weber that a first timer should base in San Sebastián (rather than Hondarribia), one of Spain's most elegant cities. We go to S.S. every summer-have done so for years-and now use a casa rural as our base in Hondarribia, but only because it makes a very inexpensive option for our week, the owners are dear friends, we have our favorite room with huge, private terrace, we love the charm of the fishing quarter, and we can access our favorite villages on the French side, the Pays Basque, more quickly from there. But we know the back roads well. Yes, as Weber says, many folks base in Hondarribia because they want to experience staying in a castle-fortress Parador from the 10th century.

As a first timer to this area, I would encourage you to spend a few nights in the city of San Sebastián (Donostia in Basque) to get to know it well and do a day trip to Hondarribia, which can be done by car or public bus.

Maribel

Len,
If you do decide to venture down to Fuente Dé for the cable car ride to the Mirador and possibly a hike, you do need to be prepared, equipped for sudden changes in weather.

And the hikes, such as the rather demanding one (for ME, NOT a veteran hiker or climber!) to the Horcados Rojos, do take quite a bit of time, 3-4 hours. I climbed up to the Refugio Cabaña Verónica at 2,325 meters once (strenuous for me), and just as I was about to enter the hut, a sudden rain storm came down, and our group needed to make a rushed descent. Not fun.

For those who are well versed in mountain driving in Spain and do it daily, these distances and drives (such as the one from Potes past the Puerto de San Glorio, down to Riaño, up the Desfiladero de los Beyes to Cangas) do seem *doable*, but for a first timer, I would heartily recommend a less challenging agenda, especially if you want to include some hiking.

mikelg

I can´t but agree with all of Maribel´s suggestions. And yes, I´d stick to the Spanish Basque Country, following an strategy of concentration rather than diversification. Bilbao and the neighbouring areas will take you two days, SS and the coastal towns on the road there are a must for another two or three days, then you can´t miss the Rioja region, two more days, and yes, Santillana is a beautiful town, a bit spoilt by tourism, but impressive in any case.

Maribel

Hi mikelg,
"a strategy of concentration rather than diversification", Now, that's my new motto in traveling!
I couldn't have put it better! See you in July!

RCLCOLPB

Thank you all for your fabulous help. I have been telling my daughter for years how helpful the Fodors board is, but I don't think she believed me until now. Your arguments easily convinced her to take the 6 AM flight back from Bilbao to enable us to adopt a "strategy of concentration." Now we have to decide what to do during the 3 days with her and her boyfriend--they really want to do everything that you have all described.

Len