Well, for travelers, there's only one thing to keep in mind, really, and that is, you can run the risk of offense if you use "tu," but you can't if you use "vous," except that you might look a bit idiotic using "vous" with a 3-year-old. Most travelers aren't talking to toddlers, though.

Inthink it's better to be too polite than to seem rude...

Another "problem" Germans don't have, however adressing your parents with "vous" like it's still common in many families, has become somewhat strange to most of us.
Vive la France!

To remember easier, think about the song : "Voulez-VOUS coucher avec moi ce soir"

For someone who doesn't know French and is a traveler, you would use "vous". This is a non-issue to anyone who doesn't know what to do, they should not be using the familiar. Who would they use it with?

Some young people immediately tutoie me and I'm not crazy about it when I don't know them.

Most travelers that you are describing don't know French, so not sure how they could put together a sentence, but if they can, they can use tu with animals and children.

i heard that one of the fairly recent french presidents [Giscard d'Estang?] and his wife, said "vous" to each other throughout their lives.

taking it a bit far, I think.

IME germans have loosened up a bit since I first learnt german about 40 years ago, but the french don't really seem to have done.

italians have the same rules in theory, but as ever, don't take their rules so seriously!

PalenQ - I think your question is mostly of interest to those non-native French speakers who either live in France or visit there frequently and have occasion to encounter people professionally or socially whom they are unsure of addressing properly.

Most casual visitors to France need only use "vous" when speaking with people in hotels, shops, restaurants, etc.

It is also true in the Netherlands that you should use U until invited to use jij (or je). They use the term tutoyeren for it, dating from their time under French rule.
However no one here will take offence at the use of jij or je rather than U by a foreigner. Except the Queen maybe .

I was told to tu for older people and the children should address me as tu

I was told to tu for older people and the children should address me as tu

Maybe they are thinking more along the lines of the Spanish.
In Spanish tu (you) is used in informal situations.

Keep it simple. Use "you".

I recognize that this is a maytery to us Americans - who call everyone by their first name immediately (unless it is the POTUS or an MD you have a professional relationship with or something) using other than the first name is considered unfriendly. Agree to tu kids and animals. tourists are VERY unlikely to know a local well enough to tu them.

I work in a business with a lot of MD consultants - who are typically very highly credentialed, full professor and often world-known in their specialty. And I have found the americans almost always say "call me X" after the first time I address than as Dr. Z. the British are about 50/50. MDs from other countries rarely say "call me X" unless i have been working closely with them on a project for some time.

Just a difference in level of formality.

PalenQ, interesting question but my spoken French is so limited that “tu” and “vous” is not a problem.

I have another observation. Correct me if I am wrong. In English we have no equivalent to the French use of constant use of “madame” and “monsieur” in conversation. I recently read MADAM BOVARY and I was struck by how often these monikers are used even among those who appear to know each other well.

My question is: do the French think it rude if English (or perhaps other) speakers do not sprinkle their conversation with so many “madams” and “monsieurs”?

no don't worry about it . The French are very forgiving for our mistakes as long as you are polite

"do the French think it rude if English (or perhaps other) speakers do not sprinkle their conversation with so many “madams” and “monsieurs”?"

No. Madame Bovary was written in the 19th century. Language and manners have evolved since then.
Tourists should use "vous" to be on the safe side and "tu"' only if invited (and fluent in French!).
In aristocratic circles it is still done to say "vous" to one's spouse or children and children will say "vous" to their parents.
Young people say "tu" much more easily than the older generation. Nevertheless "tu" is not as frequently used as in Spain, for instance.
North Africans of the older generation say "tu" because the "vous" form does not exist in Arabic. Ditto for some Africans. This does not happen often nowadays with the young generation - born and raised in France.

There's a very simple, almost universal, rule for foreigners in France (and Italy, and Spain, and Germany).

Vous till you're tued.

You're the visitor. So, if you initiate a conversation you virtually always use the formal (vous, Lei, usted, Sie), except with very small children and animals unless and until the local tu's or du's you. And even little Pierre won't be offended if he's voused

If you don't initiate the conversation, the local MIGHT tu you if they're an intimate or colleague or of the iPad generation. You ought to follow their lead - and obviously will with friends and colleagues - and though personally I find some callow youths' indiscriminate tuing to strangers ill-mannered and am tempted to vous/Lei etc back, I usually suppress my inner curmudgeon.

The rules in Germany are slightly different: between colleagues, for example, it's commonplace to hear them Sie-ing and Herr Doktoring each other in German and "oh crap, Hans: you're always getting this wrong" when speaking English to each other.

The big exception is political demonstrations (universal tu, except with police). At some other events (like university libraries, big football matches, bierfest and community celebrations), my sense is that in France, Italy and Spain universal tuing is now the norm - but for foreigners it's never inappropriate to vous till you're tued.

Quote flanneruk: "I usually suppress my inner curmudgeon."

Really?! Are you sure?

As they say in Yorkshire, "Tha tha's them as tha's thee, and not afore".

>>Quote flanneruk: "I usually suppress my inner curmudgeon."<<

I think he sneaks out when you're not looking.

I think you should certainly address in "vous" in France, unless it is someone you have gotten to know well. It is a sign of politeness in that country.

I guess in it is the same in Italy when you use "Lei" instead of tu".

During any converstion, when the people you are conversing with change from the "polite" form to the "friendly" form or if they specifically tell you themselves, then do so.

I would certainly not address anyone in France that I am not really acquainted with with "tu" (unless they were little kids). For them it is downright rude.

You are absolutely right nytraveller - many doctors, including those with Phds, or managers etc would expect to be called with their titles of Dr or Professor or Mr or whatever in Europe, even after one would haveworked with them for many years. Many would never ask you to start calling them by their first names, I guess that for them this is a sign that you are showing them respect or because they enjoy their higher status, lol.

Visitors should not even be asking such a question. We are all vous to you.

Right on, Kerouac. But I also think Palenque should not make the mistake of taking one person's opinion for 'they way they do things there.' It's like asking anyone from a different country how things are done. You get their opinion, which is not always wrong - or right - but it still mainly an opinion.

We always vouvoie until asked to do differently, or until someone tutoies us. (One of our closest neighbours, and friends, has used tu for a very long time, and we reciprocate. But we still vous her husband.)

Just to throw something else into the mix. After we had lived here for a few years I was congratulated on my very good French by an older neighbour, because I used 'nous' rather than 'on'. I hadn't really absorbed the fact that most of my friends were saying 'on sort ce soir,' for example, rather than 'nous sortons ce soir' Now we hardly ever use 'nous'. Again something that a visitor to France doesn't have to worry about, however.

Hi Chris,

>Some young people immediately tutoie me and I'm not crazy about it when I don't know them. <

It's part of the generally lessening of standards.

In the US, they address everyone by their first names.
.....................................................................................
Hi nyt

>I have found the americans almost always say "call me X" after the first time I address than as Dr. Z...... Just a difference in level of formality.<

It is a false familiarity. It stems from politicos, eg, Bobby Kennedy (whose friends and family called Robert) who want to look like one of the folks.
...............................................................................
HI ldt,

>... do the French think it rude....<

As Prof Higgins pointed out, "The French don't care what they say, actually, as long as they pronounce it properly".
.................................................................................
>I usually suppress my inner curmudgeon.

Not a healthy thing to do, Flan. It causes elevated blood pressure. Worse, it encourages the improper behavior that cause the elevated blood pressure.
..........................................................................
Hi AG,

>I guess that for them this is a sign that you are showing them respect or because they enjoy their higher status, lol.<

You are correct about the first part.

The false familiarity that some Americans use (The Chancellor of out University System would say, "Just call me Johnny") is a trap. It allows them to address you, improperly, by your first name.


"Just call me Johnny".
"Yes, Dr Smith".

Merci à vous tous.......

Waiters in France sometimes use "tu" to annoying patrons for the satisfaction of insulting them without their being aware of it. Better than spitting in the food, perhaps.

Different countries and even regions have their own styles on honorifics.

When I went South to get my Ph.D., one of my [Northern] professors told me, "They'll "doctor" you to death down there." It was true. At my undergraduate university, all the faculty were called "mister" (yes, it was a men's college and I never heard of a woman faculty member) on the assumption that of course _everyone_ was a Ph.D.

In the UK, surgeons used to be called "mister" and physicians "doctor", but I don't know if that is still true.

I still use "dottore" or "doktor" in European countries where they care a lot about that sort of thing.

I haven't used tu since high school, nobody to say it to.

It strikes me as very odd that some native English speakers on this thread have said they are not happy to be addressed as tu by someone they don't know in France. At home, the same people would probably be using your first name. Frankly, I can't think of anybody I would prefer to call me by my last name, whether at home or abroad, except perhaps in court, and it's a long time since I've gone to court. This is reflected in my screen name, I suppose.

My only objection to being tutoied would be that I would have only the foggiest notion of how to respond (see above).

"Visitors should not even be asking such a question. We are all vous to you."

In that case, kerouac, if ever we meet, it's a good thing we'll be speaking English.

I once said to a young Indian call centre employee, "would you like a stranger to address your mother as Indira or whatever her name is." He was extremely apologetic.
Yes, I would always use the formal form of you in any language unless specifically asked not to.

I'm surprised that the thread has got this far without anybody mentioning that there is a generational difference in French usage. We were visiting a French family, accompanied by our them 19 year old daughter, when our host's daughter of about the same age came in. She had never met us before, but opened conversation with my daughter "Comment tu t'appelles?".

It's not as generational as you might think -- just compare the usage of small town French teens with that of teens from Neuilly or the 16th arrondissement in Paris.

So social class matters more than age - at least in places like Neuilly? I'm not surprised.

I was aware that there are regional differences, although I am not conversant with the details. Most of the French people we know socially are Breton (some of whom would not want to be described as French): they consistently say that that Bretons use "tu" more readily than people elsewhere in France

"I'm surprised that the thread has got this far without anybody mentioning that there is a generational difference in French usage".

Too bad you didn't read my post

Right on, Kerouac. But I also think Palenque should not make the mistake of taking one person's opinion for 'they way they do things there.' It's like asking anyone from a different country how things are done. You get their opinion, which is not always wrong - or right - but it still mainly an opinion>

Good point and if you re-read my OP I I was really asking the question "has the tu and vous situation changed and I quoted my friend that in her opinion it has not - the thread has turned into other interesting discussions but the question I am posing is "is the tu and vous situation changing in daily use in France - it seems not - but that was the question.

It is always better to err on the side of caution.

Another reason not to tutoyer indiscriminately -- do you really want that much familiarity with that person?

Oh how I hate it in countries where people call me by my first name (just because they saw my first name on a form or a screen) when I have not invited them to do so. Yet I will admit that it is an aspect of one's personality and upbringing since lots of other people love this sort of thing.

I have mentioned in the past that variations of the use of "tu" and "vous" are nearly infinite -- and often contradictory, so I well understand why outsiders are confused. During my professional career, for example, I have used "tu" with close colleagues, but also with more distant ones (without being invited) just to show that I do not consider them to be superior to me in any way. And yet I have also used "vous" with other colleagues that I do not consider to be superior to me in any way with the added nuance "we will never be close - don't even try - I don't trust you."

As I approach the end of my working years, now I find myself dismayed that I can say "tu" to every single person in the company if I feel like it and it is perfectly accepted, but many of my younger colleagues (except the close ones) always say "vous" to me, which I interpret to mean "you are old and I must show respect."

Kerouac - so is the thing changing in general or just with you as you age, like a fine wine I may add. The Q is the tu and vous thing changing in the general population or is it the same, as my French friend adamantly claims? Qu'est-ce que TU pense or qu'est-ce que VOUS pense?

and it seems odd but if there are more than one dear friends together do you say Tu to both of them or do you say the plural vous - does Tu have a plural, like Tus?

If you're talking to more than one person, it doesn't matter how you'd address them individually - you use vous because you're talking to more than one!

And no, tu doesn't have a plural. How would that make sense (unless you were forming some weird thought like "all of you little yous out there")?

So with two folks at once you cannot make the tu-vous distinction? that is what I thought and it don't make much sense that you cannot say a collective 'tu' when talking to two dear friends. But that is the language, I understand.

Nice post, kerouac. Interesting the way you use "tu" and "vous" with your colleagues.

I grew up learning old-fashioned French and was told that one may never use "tu" until invited, as in "Vous me pouvez tutoyer" so that's the way I'll be using "tu" and "vous" till the end of my days.

And no, tu doesn't have a plural. How would that make sense (unless you were forming some weird thought like "all of you little yous out there")?>>

in German [and italian, come to that] there is a plural equivalent of "tu" which you would use for example in addressing more than one member of your family, or a number of friends. not weird at all!

Just talk to two people at the same time and there will never be a problem -- it will always be "vous."

I have no problems with that, kerouac.

"vous" meaning you and your friend, Harvey the Rabbit.

I take the "follow their lead" approach. When I was in Annecy this Spring, I went paragliding and the instructor and I used "vous" for the first couple minutes and then he switched over to "tu" so I did, too. The guy was probably in his late 40s or so--i.e., not a teenager. I asked a French friend about it and he said it was probably because the paragliding scene is generally a cool sporty atmosphere so the people are laid back and tutoie easily and it was also a sign that he thought I was cool, too, so I was happy with that explanation!

Yes, it is a case of "follow the leader" if you want to. Certain people would probably continue to say "vous" anyway, and the instructor in that case would almost certainly switch back as well. And yes, paragliding is a cool "tu" sport, like surfing or bungee jumping.

in German [and italian, come to that] there is a plural equivalent of "tu"

And Spanish (as spoken in Spain, anyway).

I'm possibly (?) a little younger than some (late 20s), which may make a difference, and have lived in France around 3 years.

I would generally tu and be tu'ed with strangers around my age and younger that I run into in bars or at the gym etc. Always tu when introduced to friends of friends. Sometimes tu with bartenders and so on that you're on friendly terms with (can be a tricky judgement call, follow their lead, but I know some bartenders that I do the "kiss kiss" with, so they're obviously tu) but otherwise vous with everyone a tourist is likely to run into.

I must admit I was shocked when BOTH servers (whom I don't know) at the "guinguette" (open-air café) tutoied me recently, I think all the fresh air must have gone to their heads It is funny, since I wouldn't be bothered by an equivalent level of familiarity in English, but these things do get somewhat ingrained with time. I was amused by a young intern at work who protested that he couldn't possibly address us all as "tu" when we told him to

PS For anyone in the UK or elsewhere who can get hold of the show Engrenages/Spiral (Season 2 I think is being repeated right now on the BBC) and knows enough French to follow along, it's fascinating to see who tu's and vous's whom!

PPS To remember easier, think about the song : "Voulez-VOUS coucher avec moi ce soir"

I would laugh at anyone who vous'd me while asking to sleep with me! Unless maybe they were addressing more than one person ha ha

>>it's fascinating to see who tu's and vous's whom!<<

The "tutoiement" is mostly between cops and criminals, or criminals who are about to do unspeakable things to each other: I would hope most Fodorites would be unlikely to end up in that sort of situation (would make for a fascinating trip report, though)!

The "tutoiement" is mostly between cops and criminals, or criminals who are about to do unspeakable things to each other: I would hope most Fodorites would be unlikely to end up in that sort of situation (would make for a fascinating trip report, though)!

True! However, there are some colleagues like Josephine and the cute prosecutor whose name I forget who vousvoie longer than I would expect, and other little interesting scenarios like when the same guy tells Laure that she needs to keep vousvoieing him at work (after they've slept together) etc. I find it interesting, anyway (plus of course it's worth watching for other reasons too!)

gwan wrote: "I must admit I was shocked when BOTH servers (whom I don't know) at the "guinguette" (open-air café) tutoied me recently, I think all the fresh air must have gone to their heads It is funny, since I wouldn't be bothered by an equivalent level of familiarity in English, but these things do get somewhat ingrained with time."

It is a way of asserting that "I am just as good as you" or, recognizing your accent, taking a bit of the mickey out of you, not knowing you would be aware. I think I might have replied in kind, adding "garcon." Though I would probably have been ashamed of myself later.

>>there are some colleagues like Josephine and the cute prosecutor whose name I forget who vousvoie longer than I would expect<<

Well (wandering off topic a bit), Maitre Not-Tonight is very much into self-protection. When she's not looking for every trick to get her clients off, she's ticking them off for cheeking her: but she has cause to, bearing in mind their ingrained attitudes to a shapely redhead (and he's into self-promotion and she's bad news for that).

Just jumping in on the Engrenages/Spiral side of this thread (which I think is superb TV).

gwan - the vousvoie-ing for longer than expected is part of why I love this series. The prosecutor's name is Pierre by the way (as my wife keeps reminding me).

It's all about power, whether presumed, inferred or real and the protocol that still needs to be upheld even if behind closed doors, all manner of dastardly shenanigans are going on. I think with Laure and Pierre, there's also a submissive/dominant sexual element being played out, which just adds to the machinations.

I'm watching the repeats on the BBC at the moment, despite having bought the box set a year ago, and it's still better than 99% of the stuff on TV, even if I know what's going to happen...

"The same guy tells Laure that she needs to keep vousvoieing him at work (after they've slept together)"

Pierre Trudeau (1919-2000), after rising from Cabinet ranks to become Prime Minister of Canada, told an old friend and Cabinet colleague:

"You can still call me "tu" when we're alone."

His listener was not particularly gratified, as you may imagine.

Should we address Kerouac and other FodorFrenchFriends wiht 'tu' or 'vous'?

It is a way of asserting that "I am just as good as you" or, recognizing your accent, taking a bit of the mickey out of you, not knowing you would be aware.

Nah, it seemed friendly enough, but I was still surprised.

Yep, I can't wait for Saison 4!

That's interesting with Pierre Trudeau, understandable I suppose when it's the PM. I seem to remember Obama and Sarkozy tutoieing in that little clip of them video-conferencing that appeared a while back. Of course Sarko would have adored showing he's on tu terms with Obama!

And Berlusconi, who was even keener to be photographed with Obama?

I wonder if he said "tu" or if he gave Obama the Lei?

("Dare del Lei" -- I didn't mean Bunga Bunga)

Playing on my ipod when I woke up this morning: Nat "King" Cole singing "Darling, Je Vous Aime Beaucoup."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNzxH3zRU_I

Cigale, I think you've got it backwards... kids should definitely be vous-ing you.
Kerouac, Really? Teens in small towns still vous each other? That is wild!

<voulez-vous couchez avec moi> - words from a popular song!

Mademoiselle from Armentières, parlez-vous?

According to the tv show I am just watching the Minister of the Interior wants to forbid the police from tutoyer-ing the public while on duty.

Glad to hear it. The alternative is unpardonable, IMO.

It was news here some years ago when, in an effort to instil more discipline in local (Quebec) schools, it was announced that students must address their teacher as "vous".

I was a teacher here in States and students often addressed teachers with You - yup just plain 'You' like in Hey You!

"the Minister of the Interior wants to forbid the police from tutoyer-ing the public while on duty."

Does "the public" include suspects in custody? They generally get tutoied by the police (but do not respond in kind) in the romans policiers that I've read (all of which are probably 40 years old or more).

"Does "the public" include suspects in custody?"

Especially suspects in custody. It is supposed to improve the relationship between people and the police (don't laugh).
However the Minister of Interior hasn't specified if the suspects will be required to stop using the f word when talking to the police.

There's nothing stuffy about it. It gives the speakers much more information about their relationship with each other rather than throwing a blanket over it.

tu kerouac ou vous kerouac - pour moi c'est sure c'est "vous"!

The English way is far more egalitarian. Everyone speaks on the same level. Simple>

rubbish - there is the Queen's English and such accents as the Midlands dialect that is not nearly so posh - rather in the UK there are great differences in the English spoken - even in England and do not say that hotty tots like those speaking the Queen's English do not look down on the likes of Midlands dialect.

His Highness is correct.

Someone asked about using 'monsieur' all the time. This week I had sole workers over and we absolutely referred to eachother as Monsieur and Madame throughout the afternoon. 'Would you like a glass of water, Monsieur?' 'Madame, please look at this problem.' 'You need to fix that now, Monsieur.' And so on. It may nit be Flaubert's epoque, but we were not going to be on a first name basis and in French, you often add something to indicate who you are addressing.
As for English dialects v the vous. Dialects define the speaker, the vius defines the speaker's definition of the relationship between two parties. Subtle, but pretty different, all the same.

do not say that hotty tots like those speaking the Queen's English do not look down on the likes of Midlands dialect.>>

hotty tots???

do you mean hoity toity, Pal? [more likely]

or hottentots? [not likely at all, but with you you never know].

BTW i speak the Queen's English but hail from the midlands. what does that make me? [a hotty tot, probably!]

What I have found fascinating in the UK over the past couple of decades (since this thread has long since wandered) is how a form of speech somewhere between Cockney and Clapham has become popular among young people whose parents sent them to the poshest of schools.

It's quite funny, really, how someone whose great-grandfather didn't have his aitches has adopted a mode of speaking that the immediately preceding generations assiduously worked to eliminate.

It may be related to that search for "authenticity" or rebellion against one's parents that results in the vast majority of Rap music in the States being sold to middle-class suburban white boys.

BTW i speak the Queen's English but hail from the midlands. what does that make me? [a hotty tot, probably!]>

makes you someone who jettisoned your native dialect in favor of the more acceptable Queen's English - why did you abandon your native tongue - how many folks who speak the queen's English jettison it and adopt a Midlands' dialect? Nuff said.

'rather in the UK there are great differences in the English spoken - even in England and do not say that hotty tots like those speaking the Queen's English do not look down on the likes of Midlands dialect.'

Dare I say that Palenque's knowledge of English language (hotty tot rather than hoity toity) is about equivalent to his knowledge of French language and customs. Not always very useful.

makes you someone who jettisoned your native dialect in favor of the more acceptable Queen's English - why did you abandon your native tongue - how many folks who speak the queen's English jettison it and adopt a Midlands' dialect? Nuff said.>>

neither of my parents had a midlands accent, which may explain why I don't and never did.

but have you never heard of legendary BBC DJ and broadcaster John Peel? He had a perfectly normal RP accent but adopted a liverpudlian one.

nuff said indeed.

Eureka! I think he's heard the expression "posh totty" and it has churned around to become "hotty tot"
Palenquologists are surprised that he has been silent about the Jubilee. The Royal Family is usually one of his trigger points.
BTW, Tony Blair abandoned his posh public school accent for Estuary

annhig - do you think there would be absolutely no difference if say in Court - I think you are a barrister - one who wears those ridiculous wigs - that addressing the Court in Coronation Street type language you would be as effective and erudite as in RP accent?

Perhaps with a jury but not IMO a judge - stereotypes come into play - like recently I was a scorer on a standardized test from the State of Tennessee (I work part-time as a test scorer for a firm here in Michigan that contracts with Tennessee - and the Tennessee State Department of Education sent a top official up to look over what we were doing and when she opened her mouth to address us Man what a hill billy drawl - just like in the Beverly Hillbillies - it caught all of us by surprise and we were chuckling inside and it did affect our judgment of her as a 'country yokel' - she even was using improper English as hill billies normally do - so I think your dialect could well make a difference in many situations, whether it should or not. Someone using Queen's English perhaps being perceived as more educated, etc than someone not?

PQ, I beg you, never use the phrase "hotty tot" in the UK. It's hardly one any of us actually uses, and to the extent that a meaning can be discerned, it might land you in a whole heap of trouble (think about it).

>> Someone using Queen's English perhaps being perceived as more educated, etc than someone not?<<

Yes, indeed, and it is not unknown for such a perception to be true in many cases and sadly deceptive in many others. There used to be a comedy character on TV called "Tim Nice-But-Dim", for example. And there are very well-educated, erudite and clever people who nevertheless make a complete Horlicks of many a situation - particularly those who go into politics.

I would never add 'monsieur' or 'madame' to every sentence, but some people do. I figure that once I have said it in the original greeting 'bonjour monsieur,' one size fits all.

I would like to make sure at this point of the discussion that everybody remembers to say 'bonjour monsieur' (or madame) to the driver when boarding a bus or a taxi. It is highly important. (Well, maybe not so much for bus drivers to whom half of the passengers are not properly polite, but really this is quite an important nicety of daily life in France.)

Usually, it's "Vous" as long as you're talking about an indicative subject.

one who wears those ridiculous wigs >>

not me pal! [well, hardly ever]. and i have many colleagues with regional accents.

I think that you are are living in a past of about 30 years ago or so.

[but I do agree that the wigs are ridiculous].

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/sep/10/france-tu-vous-distinction-twitter-generation

Hey farr,

Another example of the general lessening of standards.

The author claims that

<<French people in their 20s hardly ever use vous>> FALSE!

And then she includes herself in this group:

<<the ones who have had terrible difficulties adopting the Bonjour, Madame and Bonjour, Monsieur>> I have never encountered any such French people!

Finally, the author wraps up the article with a pirouette defending the use of vous after all.

when ask my 20s son about young folk only using Tu he agreed that was the case. Tu, tu and tu even for casual aquaintances - I asked if you are at a party and meet a friend's friend would you use Tu or Vous - Tu sans doubt he said - so he disagrees with Kerouac on that take - seems they use Tu more than Vous except in setting like with store clerks, teachers, etc.

Wonder if kerouac stalks much with younger folk in casual settings?

Can I point out that once again you are using your son as the ONLY expert on French customs/behaviour. Not to say that he is wrong in reporting what happens to him, but that no one person knows what happens in every, or even most situations.

Perhaps Kerouac does indeed meet young people in casual settings, just not the ones that your son meets.

Yes, young people in casual settings due say TU to each other. But they do not live in a young ghetto and have to interact with people of all generations every day. Let them try and get a baguette at the boulangerie if they tutoie the baker's wife or pick up a registered letter at the post office with the same technique.

due = do

Personally I like to speak English to the animals I meet in France. They don't seem to mind either, except for the poodles: they still insist on French & vous.

I always thought a dog is a "vous" and a cat is a "tu".

<Finally, the author wraps up the article with a pirouette defending the use of vous after all>

She's finally realised that playing it safe is the best policy for all forms of social intercourse.

"Wonder if kerouac stalks much with younger folk in casual settings?"

Is the appropriate word for a stalker tu or vous?

Nikki: Is the appropriate word for a stalker tu or vous?

Depends on how close you are to the stalker.

I always thought it interesting that God gets tu'ed.

But doesn't he also get theed rather than thoued?

I think people who did not grow up with a mother tongue using tu/vous, du/Sie, tu/Usted etc. can never never never get it.
And even for those who did, it is not a crystal-clear matter.

First of all, forget about rules.
Well, there is none, except the beaten-to-death general guideline to address anyone except kids in the polite form until invited to use the familiar form.
Rubbish again.
If you are older or in other ways senior it is your job to offer the familiar form to fhe younger one.
Again, more a guideline than a rule.
You would start to address younger folks with the polite form once they reach adulthood, at 18. Probably even a bit sooner.

What Trudeau did when he told his buddy only to tu him in private was quite sensible. It was supposed to show the other members of his cabinet or anyone else than he would not let this friend get too friendly in business or political matters, i.e. would not make favors.

In other cases it can be almost impolite and it is meant as a measure of exclusion to use the polite form. If a person invites you for drinks after a meeting with his friends, and they are all on familiar terms with eachother, it would almost be good etiquette for them to offer you the familiar form.

If a 20something uses the familiar way to address you, a 40something, in a club, you can also take it as a compliment, i.e. that he/she does not think of you as a senior citizen. This is quite common in German and Spanish, not sure to what extent in French. In Catalan, it would be even more normal to use the familiar form for strangers.

So, it can be a tricky matter and there are no fool-proof or one-size-fits-any-situation rules.

"But doesn't he also get theed rather than thoued?"

Depends whether he's the subject or the object.

>>Depends whether he's the subject or the object.<<

It might be Sunday morning, but it's a bit early to get into the metaphysics of theology.

Although it is probably apocryphal, the Emperor Charles V is reputed to have said, "I speak Spanish to God, Italian to Women, French to Men, and German to my Horse"

It is not known whether he used the polite or familiar "you" in each case.

Valerie Giscard d'Estang was President of France and also a noble and was criticized for using 'vous' with his kids.

The Socialist President of France, François Mitterand, was once asked by one of the party faithful, "Je peux te tutotoyer?" to which he is said to have responded, "Si vous voulez".

It is not recorded whether he used "vous" with his children, legitimate or illegitimate.

PatrickLondon wrote "It might be Sunday morning, but it's a bit early to get into the metaphysics of theology."

It's more theeology than theology; Nikki was making a grammar point.

The Irish language has singular and plural second person pronouns and no tradition of the respectful plural. That creates a small complication in Hiberno-English, where "thee" and "thou" have fallen out of use. In carrying over our Irish language mindset, we often use "you" as a singular and "yous", "yiz" or "ye" as a plural.

Back to French: I recently re-established contact with a French female correspondent with whom I last exchanged letters when we were in our teens 48 years ago (thanks to Google). My opening email was "Vous etes la meme .... ?" (with the proper accents, which I can find on my home computer). She responded using "tu": the passage of time, careers, marriages, retirement - none of these seems to have altered the choice of pronoun.

>>Nikki was making a grammar point.<<

I know, but is God the subject or object of a prayer (if you're a believer)?

I know, but is God the subject or object of a prayer (if you're a believer)?>

Easy since God can be everything God can both be a subject of and object of prayer - that is IF there were a God and since there is not it is irrelevant - like if a tree falls in a forest and there is no one around to hear it does it make any noise?

Can God make a tree he cannot lift, etc.

I always thought that the Christian god is "thee-ed" and "thou-ed" and thy-ed" because God is supposedly a single entity? If god were multiple, then wouldn't they be "ye-ed"?

To give one example (lovely hymn by the way):

Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, How great Thou art.

But I assume it was a slip of the virtual pen and kerouac meant to say God gets thee'd rather than you'd.

Here's a pretty good basic overview of the different forms and uses of thee etc.
http://cummingsstudyguides.net/xThou.html

I am astounded with the obsession with the proper use of tu and vous in France...It has become a convoluted super post. Keep it simple: with adults you don't know use Vous. With children use Tu. There is no mystery to it.

>>Nikki was making a grammar point.<<

Patrick got it. I got that he got it. I've been pondering his point since yesterday. It's a day for me to do that.

Easy since God can be everything God can both be a subject of and object of prayer - that is IF there were a God and since there is not it is irrelevant - like if a tree falls in a forest and there is no one around to hear it does it make any noise?>>

we have a saying in our house about god - omnipotent, omniscient, and omnivorous.

or something like that.

I don't know about god, but I am getting tu'ed more and more by young sales people working in trendy clothing stores for teens. Never offends me, but Mlle French didn't like it one bit this weekend in Deauville, and she's only 30.

Phread: Interesting that you are going shopping with your daughter (or is it granddaughter?).

Why you need to know this stuff. Just had a call from a friend, asking 'si vous pouvez venir chez nous' An invitation to lunch to which I responded, 'avec plaisir,' and then realised that these are very good friends, whom we tutoyer all the time - she was inviting both of us, and obviously hadn't realised that my husband was still away. So luckily I thought to point out that it would indeed be just me, and even better, the invitation was still good.

So, sometimes 'vous' does mean two of you!

voulez vous couchez avec moi! Why not tu here like toulez tu avec moi?

Why not tu here like toulez tu avec moi?

Because the phrase probably comes out of GI French where the vous form was undoubtedly emphasized for the few phrases that a soldier might learn. A native speaker would never use this phrase, whether in the polite or the familiar form; unless it is a prostitute soliciting, in which case she would use the familiar form.

What's " toulez tu " ?

Good question, kappa. Must be what Pal's "French son" uses. An actual French person would use veux-tu, but as Michael points out, this is fictional French out of a GI handbook anyway.

What's " toulez tu " ?

fractured French.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Voulez-vous%20coucher%20avec%20moi%20ce%20soir

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irjbAudhIYc

what's touez-tous - satire!

Must be what Pal's "French son" uses>

ah for snarky folks like St Cirq they need another form of vous or tu - something meaning unpolite and rude. Peut-etre vutu?

e.e. cummings in 1922? Is its origin in doughboy French?

PalenQ,

Your French is not good enough for satire in that language. It simply comes out as something that someone who only knows the conjugation of regular "er" verbs to the exclusion of any other class of verbs.

change "something that someone" to "something from someone"

Michael - so you think I know more than I understand. I agree.

Now what form of tu/vous should I address snarky folks like St Cirq with - vous is just too polite for that ilk. Suggestions?

PalenQ,

You misunderstood my comment.

"Vous" can be dripping with sarcasm when used in a properly constructed phrase. But I would not try it if I were asking someone else for suggestions.

I don't know why there's all the fuss about the lyric "voulez-vous coucher avec moi, ce soir?"

"veux-tu coucher avec moi, ce soir?" simply doesn't scan with the melody.

Lady Marmalade was written about New Orleans. What were the GI's doing there?

Perhaps the question was about group rates, in which "vous" would be perfectly appropriate.

Love it!

touez-tous voulez-vous couchez avec les trois?

Oui, bien sur!

As long as you don't expect a French person to understand what you are asking.

funny my French son said it was Academy of France level grammar?

People who write fractured French on their own should not try to joke in fractured French.

ca va bien? Tu m'attendra au Gare de Dijon cet Sett 31em, comme le dernier fois? a midi? Merci, encore. Salut.