wes fowler

Earlier this evening I responded to a query "The things I forgot to bring…". It had prompted a large number of responses listing a ton of items, from ziplock plastic bags, toilet paper, bungee cords to deodorant soap, bubble wrap, headache remedies, Kleenex and plastic eating utensils and paper plates that various folks considered to be essentials for traveling. I responded somewhat sarcastically that Europeans had recently emerged from the primordial muck, had paved some of their roads, encouraged the growth of electricity and flush toilets and actually had stores where one could shop. I suggested that the list of essentials such as those above could all be purchased with relative ease in Europe and tried to suggest that shopping for such incidentals gives the traveler wonderful insights into the customs, perceived fads and needs, cost of living and daily routines of Europeans. I find the excuse to shop for such essentials an excellent opportunity to meet and interact with "real" Europeans, that is, citizenry not affiliated with the tourist, travel and accommodation industries; no concierges, waiters, desk clerks, tour guides, ticket agents, train conductors, fellow travelers, sales clerks in souvenir shops and the like. Not speaking a foreign language fluently has never hampered me from seeking out a headache remedy in a pharmacy or toilet paper in a grocer's. Doing so has often been a great conversation starter between storekeepers and their patrons and myself and has led to many interesting and memorable encounters. So, having said that, I'm curious: how do you manage to get to know the "real" Europeans and their life styles? What ploys do you use and with what success? Any memorable experiences?

Al

We travel second-class rail. On a trip between Rome and Florence, we were alone in a compartment of Italians. My wife and I were talking when an Italian gentleman next to me corrected my English. "You are correct, of course...but where did you learn to speak such perfect English?" I asked. The Italian gentleman lifted his nose, looked me straight in the eye, and said, "During the war, sir, I was a prisoner of the British Army." So I guess our prescription for running into "the real Europeans" is simple: travel alone on second-class rail.

Linda

I agree with the person above. The first time I visited Italy I went on my own and took the night train from Naples to Venice. I ended up in a cuchetta with 5 other women that spoke no English. I spoke one semester of Italian. We had a ball. They shared their food with me, we took pictures and were able to communicate somehow. I also like to stay at small locally hotels or B&B's. The employees are so friendly and helpful. They go out of their way to make your stay enjoyable. The Hotel Tournabeacci (sp) in Florence was one such place. I agree with Wes about shopping. I was in the middle of nowhere (Cappadoccia) and the frame to my reading glasses broke. I went from store to store along the street holding my glasses and having the locals direct me to the hardware store for the Turkish equivalent of Super Glue.

bo_jack

Ask around for where to get internet access: We have been introduced to the back rooms of office supply stores, the insides of fairly seedy-looking bars, the class room of a small-town business school, plus regular "cyber cafes" this way. Find and go to a coin-operated laundry -- much easier said than done in many places. Occasionally go to McD's or Burger King -- Americans tend to scorn them in Europe, so most of their customers are locals. If you like plants, go to Florists Shops; if you like canoing, go to rivers; i.e., seek out the local version of your at-home interests. Local book stores -- the "learn English" section -- are frequently interesting both in terms of people and books (e.g., Tom Sawyer presented as a text book for a German student to learn English).

Bob Brown

I see your point Wes, and I was one of those who responded with a few items. <BR>But usually when I want and/or need something like that, it is at the end of a long day and I have no urge to go out again. Besides most retail stores are closed. <BR>Switzerland, we shop the markets for food because we have stayed in an apartment for 7 days. In Lauterbrunnen and in Saas Grund we had to visit 3 or 4 places because there is no super market. So we visit the green grocers, the meat shop, the cheese shop, and the bakery. We shop the boutiques for items to take home to the grandchildren, etc. We have even bought clothes because my wife saw something she liked in the window. But I cannot say that we got to know any Europeans because we shopped. About the closest we came was at a bakery in Bern where two charming elderly ladies helped us, but I could not understand the local dialect and they didn't speak English. <BR>At least at the hotel in Zinal, I could converse a little in German with the "girl Friday" who did everything except be the owner. <BR>The owner himself spoke good English. And we did get to know their dogs. And at least at the apartment in Saas Grund, I found out from our landlady all about her daily situation. But shopping in Europe has not brought me into contact with Europeans any more than it would bring us into contact with people in the USA.

traveler

What a neat thread, Wes; you've done it again! <BR> <BR>Not to be recommended for everyone, but we took our 5 year old to Europe (he's now a college student). He proved to be quite an "ice breaker." We taught him basic greetings as well as yes/no, thank you/you're welcome in French and German, and to say that he was warmly welcomed is an understatement. People really went out of their way to be nice to him. He paved the way to many conversations for his dad and me, too. <BR> <BR>We tend to travel "off the beaten track," and curiously were mistaken for a British family several times (we are American). <BR> <BR>So if it fits your plans, round up a young child and take him/her along!

John

Good idea for a thread, Wes… <BR>I think one needs to break out of the visitor environment, and also to some extent out of the customer role. I meet plenty of people in shops or in airplanes on both sides of the Atlantic, and I can’t say I’ve developed many meaningful relationships with them, haven’t been invited to the grocery checker’s house or the Spanish shopkeeper’s place for a sherry and a gab. That’s not to say it couldn’t happen, just that the odds are low. <BR> <BR>So how to get around it? I think common interests are good starts, especially hobby or work -related. Before you go, find out if there are people or places where sharing some work interests might be possible. Photographer? Photo clubs. Firefighter? Visit the fire hall. With the internet, unions, professional associations, one has many means for finding people and companion organizations where people-to-people contact can be made outside the hotel/shop/café setting. It takes a bit more planning, maybe, but if it’s important enough to you the effort is justified. <BR> <BR>Some simpler, but still visitor-related methods are obvious. Bed and breakfast instead of hotels. It’s a crap shoot if the host/ess wants more from you than your fifty quid, but the odds are sure higher than at the Hilton. Church on Sunday or Shul on Shabbat. Farm vacations. Camping vacations (ugh). <BR> <BR>Remember, too, that North Americans tend to be pretty gregarious compared to many Euros, so don’t expect the earth to move just because you’re a great guy or gal. <BR> <BR>I also agree about the little kid thing. But borrowing a really cute dog and going into the pub is a killer. <BR>

homes

Find a gym and see if you can get in for a single workout.

Nigel Doran

You could always find a local newspaper or what's on magazine and search out events and meetings that coincide with your interests. <BR>Simply reading the newspaper in the country you are visiting, or listening to the local radio and T V services will bring you closer to the people, even if it is 'passively.' <BR>On holiday in an English-speaking country, or in a place whose language I know, I will always take that city's or region's newspapers. That way, the latest must-do, must-see, must-eat knowledge is easy to find. <BR>Why not tune into the local radio service and see what the locals have on their mind that day? You could even call in with your two penny worth, if you can speak the lingo.

Mary

I am not widely traveled in the "wilderness" of Europe, but on the few trips I've taken, I've found that it's pretty easy to meet people and get some sense of a culture if you don't spend all your time in touristy places--that's rather obvious, but. . . <BR> <BR>For instance, one time when I was in Ireland, I went on a month-long search for megaliths that had me "at the mercy" of locals. I had old ordnance survey maps and old books to get me started, and ended up in some very off-the-beaten-track places, even for Ireland. Simply being in those places piqued people's interest; and, to me, just one conversation with a sheep farmer in his doorway, with his dog making sure I understood who was boss, was worth a ton of Blarney Castles. (The stone circle on his land was pretty neat, too.) Also, sometimes simply being "available" to local people can elicit wonders--once I was walking a lane in the hills of Kerry, and an elderly woman noticed me admiring her garden flowers and invited me in for tea. Consider, too, the beliefs of a people in a culture; visiting a holy well in Ireland can lead to unforgettable encounters with people (believe me, you don't have to be religious to have quite the experience at a holy well; but visit with the proper respect.) <BR> <BR>One of the most memorable experiences I've had was going into a little village in Portugal to look for the graves of people related to my grandmother. In no time at all, the entire village was out of doors trying to help me. Nobody spoke English; I didn't speak Portuguese other than a few phrasebook items. I got to meet just about everyone, though, and gained a tiny insight into how these people lived and a big insight into the graciousness of their hearts. (You certainly couldn't get more "real" than these people--on any level of definition.) The thing was, I got the feeling that if I had been looking for anything (a place to get a bandaid, for instance), these people would have still all come out to help me. Just someone from "outside" being there was "an event." <BR> <BR>All that said, another of my most memorable experiences took place at a village near Fatima, which itself is highly touristed. My travel mate and I stopped into a little shop, and there seemed no one around (in fact, it appeared we were the only people in the entire village). A woman came out from a back room, then her husband, and before we knew it, they were pouring us their "family port" and the four of us were conversing--somehow. They didn't know a stitch of English (surprising for a tourist area, but true). Why these people did this was beyond me. I asked, in bits of Portuguese phrases, if they wanted to sell the wine (I figured that maybe there was an angle to their generosity). They seemed very surprised once they figured out what I was asking, and I came to understand that their gesture had nothing to do with selling anything. They were proud of their family wine, and just happy to share it. When quite a while later we left these people, it seemed like we were walking out into an entirely different world, as if time had stopped when we were in that shop and the world that was starting up again was now somehow a better place. Goat bells were softly tinkling in the distance, and cuckoos were announcing the evening. All of life seemed radiant. Today, I can still hear the warm laughter of those people, and taste the goodness of their family wine, (surely the best wine I've ever had), and remember the touch of their hands as they took mine in theirs as we expressed our farewells. This was something that could not be planned; and had we been intent on keeping to OUR plans, we would have curtailed our time with those people, in favor of seeing "things." <BR> <BR>As far as learning about people's lifestyles through such experiences, I don't know. I've made friends with people overseas, and yet I don't think this has given me any in-depth knowledge of lifestyles. But I have to say that putting yourself "out there" and "going with" experiences as they unfold can lead you into some great human territory--and there might even be some "real" Europeans there. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>

s.fowler

All the points made here are true - we are all different - take different purposes and attitudes where we go - which is to say we will have and value different experiences etc... Having issued that pile of platitudes... <BR> <BR>I find the connection with the local culture "flows" best when you have a reason to visit a store or a pub more than once. You don't have to be there for more than a couple of days - but buying bottled water or bread at the same corner store -- or having a drink at the same bar or pub grounds you and opens the door for the small conversations. And I agree that the local laundromat can be worth every minite spent there! <BR>

the turnip

We really enjoy Rick Steves travel philosphy. To us it means that often times the LESS we spend, whether it be food, lodging, etc. the more we meet up with "real" people, and we love it. <BR> <BR>Bed and breakfasts, grocery stores, Mom and Pop restaurants, small stores - all these type of places lend themselves to personal encounters. Another suggestion is to find the equivilent of your local place of worship. It's here that we've found the warmest welcomes of all. <BR> <BR>It's just my two cents but I feel evryone should at least try getting away from the 5 star hotels and posh restaurants once in awhile. Europe has some wonderful things to see but often times our best memories and experiences come not from famous places or paintings but meeting and interacting with everyday wonderful people. <BR>

Russ

Count my vote with Al's for second class train travel. The six-passenger compartments are best. When face to face with you for a multi-hour trip, the somewhat more reserved Europeans will often initiate conversations with you and generally seem to welcome interaction. I've met people from all walks of life in this way. <BR> <BR>I also agree with another poster who recommended extended stays. When you're part of a neighborhood for a week or more, you become a familiar face; if the place isn't too big, perhaps even approachable! <BR> <BR>Also, it helps to go to places where you aren't categorized as just another of the million American tourists passing through town. I stayed in a pension in a small village off the tourist path last year, and the owners thought my presence very unique -- they'd only had a handful of American visitors in the 30 years of running the place. Breakfast became more than just rolls and coffee there -- they were genuinely curious about me, and vice-versa.

Al

I second the vote for B&Bs. Once, when wandering the back roads of Brittany, we saw a small sign at a crossroads where one road led into a forest. We followed it until we came to a clearing at the top of a hill...and there stood a great chateau. We knocked at the door and a maid dressed like Mary Poppins answered, beckoned us in, and called the chateau's master. He spoke fine English, pointed us toward our room (wow!), and disappeared. He joined us at breakfast, asked if he could practice his English with us, and set about serving us a huge meal. He apologized for this wife not joining us because she did not speak English. We could see her in an adjoining room, dressed in leotards, and standing on her head. He winked at us when he saw us staring, and began to tell us his life story. Turned out he was a professor of veterinarian science, had been a prisoner of war of the Germans, worked on a farm throughout his captivity, and simply walked away one day at the war's close. He went on and on -- what a character. Showed us the chateau (I think he and his wife were very rich...and very lonely), packed us a lunch, and waved farewell from the terrace. You don't run into places and people like that when you stay at the Hilton. <BR>

Beth Y

I second the "take your kids" recommendation. Whenever we take out baby to Europe, we are surrounded by locals wanting to play with her, so we meet all sorts of people on a personal basis. We can't sit down at a restaurant and not meet the people at the next table. Of course, the fact that our daughter is the cutest kid there is (just our opinion) helps.

Falcon

A friend recently sent me a card with this (it is true??): <BR> <BR>"I have never met anyone who calls themselves "european" - they are Germans or French or Russian etc. <BR>The odd thing though, is that far from associated themselves with a wider regional area i.e. "German"&gt;"European" some are actually going the other way i.e. German&gt;Bavarian. Worse some of the more committed are becomming even more inward looking by re-inventing old dead languages e.g. Luxemburgish which is what they now speak in Luxemburg, BUT this is not the same Luxemburg that is in neighbouring Belgium. And in Belgium they have started speaking Nederlands which is what the speak in another country called the Nederlands!". It is all very confusing, but it goes on - Scotch folks do not like being called English even though they speak English and in Greece they don't like people in neighbouring Macedonia calling themselves but don't seem to mind if they call themselves European". <BR> <BR> <BR>

dan woodlief

One thing that I have done that gave me many opportunities to meet people of other nationalities and learn about how things really work in their countries is to take a college course (I guess some tours may offer this type of environment). I took business study abroad courses that lasted for several weeks in Europe and Asia. We had guides assigned to us for the duration of our stays in each country (luckily, we had lots of free time too). In addition, we had presentations from businesspeople, government officials, and fellow college students, which gave us a better understanding of the lifestyle, preferences, economy, and even prejudices of the places we visited. We broke into small groups and went to pubs and restaurants with the students in Germany, and our guides took us to places that were unfrequented by tourists. For example, in Moravia, we drove to some tiny village near the Austrian border, where we had a meal and wine tasting (or more like gulping) in a family's private wine cellar. The mayor of the village jumped on the bus as we entered the town and joined us for the festivities. One of the most memorable experiences for me in all my travels was our Beijing guide singing one of his favorite American songs, "Take Me Home Country Roads," as he stood in the front of our bus. I think about that every single time I happen to hear that song. I know this is a Europe forum, but one of the longer conversations I had with someone from another country was in Shanghai. Two guys stopped us on the Bund, a popular spot for Chinese to go to practice their English, and we talked for close to an hour. So language is one way of meeting people - either speak their's or go somewhere where they like to use yours. Interestingly, the first occasion outside the U.S. that I had a chance to use my German was in Shanghai. We were looking for a particular garden. I noticed a tour group of German speakers near us and asked one in German if she knew the directions to the garden. Unfortunately, from her reply, I knew she was giving directions to the harbor. <BR> <BR>I haven't really met many people shopping in groceries and pharmacies, but I have found that it does give some insight into the way of life to visit these places.

Lori

Short and sweet since I am being redundant - second class train travel, shopping in small neighborhood stores (always check these out), sitting in local bars and pubs - not touristy ones. Love the previous poster's idea of going to a gym!!!

elvira

wes, you've done it again - I love everyone's stories (the Turkish superglue and the Brittany chateau stories are priceless) and the common thread which seems to be "travel close to the ground". I figured out what that is - traveling like you live your life at home. I don't have servants to buy my groceries or pick up my dry cleaning; no chauffeur to drive me somewhere then pick me up; no VIP treatment at movie theatres or skating rinks - so I talk to the salesclerks, people on the bus, the maintenance people at work...the 'real' Americans. The same theory works in Europe; if there isn't a layer of 'protection' (tour buses and guides, pre-arranged meals in tourist-stop restaurants and hotels, etc.) between you and your daily needs, you HAVE to interact... <BR> <BR>In Malta I wore a tshirt imprinted with a picture of Elvis (long story, I'll save it for another time) while souvenir shopping in Valetta. A clerk, a woman around 18, approached me and asked in very formal English where I had bought the shirt. I said in the United States and she looked crestfallen. She said her mother was a BIG Elvis fan and would love to have been able to buy one. So, when I got back to our apartment, I washed it out and hung it up to dry. Next day, after Mass (sidebar here: I'm a Prod but my traveling companion is Catholic so I went to Mass with her - and it was in LATIN - hadn't been to a Latin Mass since the Ecumenical Council) we went back to the store with the shirt. The young woman was there and was absolutely dumfounded when I gave her the shirt, and she asked for my address. Since then, I've had regular correspondence with her mother, who doesn't read English but has a friend write the letters for her. <BR> <BR>We wear Groucho noses on our trips - photos in front of Buckingham Palace, at Versailles, we have no shame. At the Bushmills Distillery, we donned the glasses while (whilst I guess for this story) sampling the heady stuff - and got into a conversation with a family from the Republic who were just amazed that 4 American women would bother to travel to northern Ireland. <BR> <BR>And on a train in Morocco, in a compartment with a Berber woman and her 3 yr old daughter...my sister is pointing to the little girl's face saying "nose" "eyes" "mouth" - at which point little Zeneb lifts up her dress, points to the naughty bits and says "TEETEE!". Mom turned the color of a desert sunset and started apologizing (mind you, she spoke French and Berber) in every language she knew. My sister turned her head toward the window because she didn't want Zeneb to see her laughing hysterically. I lost it and began laughing so hard, tears streamed down my face. Mom started to laugh just as hard and for 10 minutes we were out of control. Ever after, we refer to her as Zeneb, Warrior Princess - and my sister and I go into convulsions. <BR>

Doug

Travel in the winter when there are less tourists. Having your kids along are great icebreakers. At tourist attractions just look confused and usually somebody will eventually try to help you.