marciakaz

Hello all, I am planning a trip for next summer. The travelers will be myself and my 18 year old daughter. We will fly open-jaw from DFW to Amsterdam, and back from London to DFW. The plan, so far: 2 nights Amsterdam, 5 nights Germany (Rhein valley and Munich), 11 nights Italy (Venice, Rome/Naples, Florence, Cinque Terre), 12 nights France (7 are Paris, 2 are Provence, the rest tbd), 10 nights England (4 or 5 London, 3 Bath/Cotswolds, 2 Liverpool (we have to--daughter is a HUGE beatles fan).

Travel will be mostly by train, though I have considered renting a car for the Provence leg). We are budget travelers (but not hostel-budget), love art, architecture, and aniquities. We are also foodies, and love to experience the "real" culture of a place. I've already priced lodging (and reserved some), and believe I can keep that expense to $4000 or less. Also, I know railpasses (europe only) will be about $1500. Unknowns: airfare, other transportation costs, food (trying to choose lodging that includes breakfast, not opposed to preparing some of our own meals, esp in paris, and will have some picnics and take-away meals), activities/admissions.

I would appreciate any insight you can offer to help me pin down good estimates of these budget components.

janisj

Just a very quick first comment:

11 nights for 5 destinations in Italy is more than difficult - practically impossible. After deducting travel time you'll net less than 1.5 days at each stop.

adrienne

When you're budgeting for food you need to think beyond meals, such as stopping for a cold drink, ice creams, glasses of wine/beer in cafes. All this adds up. I refill my water bottle from the tap to save money and to be a bit green and not have tons of water bottles in the land fill. I would budget E50 per person per day as a minimum.

You also need to budget for sightseeing admission fees. You can go on museum web sites for pricing but many major museums charge about E10. Have your daughter bring her student card in case she can get a reduced admission rate.

Moving around to a lot of places adds tremendously to the budget so you might want to reduce the number of places you visit.

Your 11 nights (10 days) in Italy is in 5 different locations which is not practical, especially with 3 major cities. You'll only have about 1.5 days in each location when you factor in traveling time. Consider dropping a couple of locations from Italy and spend more time in the locations you choose.

tarquin

Costs can be better kept under control if you are not constantly changing places. For instance, limit the Italy section to 3 cities max, say Venice 4 nights, Florence 2/3 nights and Rome 4/5 nights.

I really do not understand the craze for the Cinque Terre on this board. OK, it's nice enough, but there is plenty of scenery as good in the US, and Italy abounds in equally pleasant small towns. That's my opinion anyway.

sofarsogood

Not sure if you've decided on a final order for this but if, for the sake of argument, it's France to the UK, do consider flying direct from France to Liverpool, which is your furthest point north. Then working your way down to the Cotswolds and London.

That would be more efficient than travelling from the continent to London, going all the way up to Liverpool, just to return to London. Easy Jet, Ryanair among others do cheap flights.

… And as your daughter is a huge Beatles fan its Liverpool John Lennon Airport with the tag line "above us only sky"

as for costs, estimate a budget and double it…

isabel

Transportation. I agree with the suggestion of flying easyjet from Paris to Liverpool, probably much cheaper and quicker also than doing that leg by train. Then go to country specific train sites and look at prices, you probably do NOT want a rail pass. Point to point is usually cheaper. In most of the countries, especially Italy, there are numerous trains per day and the price for the same route will be different depending on if you are on a fast or slow train. But sometimes a slower train can cost half as much and only take a short amount of extra time. The raileurope site is good for getting an idea of how long a trip will be but the prices are much less on the countries own sites (trenitalia, etc).

I also agree with the others than you have too many sites in Italy. Three days is enough (well it's never 'enough') in Venice and lodging will be most expensive there so limit that. Also, unless you have a specific reason I would drop Naples. So if you did 3 in Venice and 4 in Rome that would leave 4 for another location. So many good choices of places to base for 4 days and do day trips to smaller towns.

You say you are 'foodies' but I guess it depends on what 'type' of foodie you are. The primary way I keep costs down on trips is by doing a lot of eating picnics and buying things like fresh fruits, breads and cheeses at markets. It's the sit down, wait-service meals that cost a lot. Paninis, crepes, pizza, etc are inexpensive and wonderful. In England, pre-made sandwiches from places like Tesco, Marks & Spencer Food, etc. are wonderful. I would never eat a pre-made sandwich in the US but in England it's a whole different story.

If you click my name you'll bring up trip reports to most of the places you list. I have traveled extensively with my daughter (beginning when she was 16, she's now 28)and we were able to do the number of trips we did by being budget travelers. That said we have never stayed in sketchy hotels of any sort. My trip reports give reviews of all the places we've stayed.

Also, here's my photos, there are galleries of all the places you have on your list. http://www.pbase.com/annforcier

My only warning: be careful your daughter doesn't love it too much - mine ended up doing two studies abroad in college, then returning to work a year in Paris and again to do grad school in England. To say she got the 'travel bug' is a bit of an understatement.

marciakaz

Thanks so much for the good ideas. I will certainly look into flying Paris to Liverpool...makes a lot of sense. If so, how far in advance is practical to book this sort of short/cheap flight?

I know the Italy itinerary is a little crazy, and I know that short stays will not allow for the most enjoyment possible. I am having a terrible time deciding where to cut something out. We planned to take the night train from Venice to Naples to save time. Naples is primarily on the itinerary for Pompeii...plus hotels are cheaper than in Rome.

I think food costs may still be the wildcard of the budget. E50 each per day seems like a lot. That said, better to plan too much than not enough.

Isabel, thanks for your thoughts, and sharing your reports and photos. Given that our travels will closely parallel yours, this is priceless insight!

Mimar

Miscellaneous thoughts:

In France even with a rail pass you have to pay for a seat reservation.

Hotel breakfasts can be very expensive. Usually you can find a nearby cafe where a coffee and a croissant (or whatever) is much cheaper. But these are not bottomless cups of coffee or ventis. It's just one cup of coffee.

We have our largest meal at lunch. Lunches are cheaper than dinner. And a longer sitdown makes a nice rest for our sore feet. Then we eat lightly at dinner. Often just gelato in Italy.

Would it be possible to move your trip to early summer? Perhaps starting as early as possible in June? That's not yet the high season in some places so rates will be lower. And there will be fewer people. Some of your destinations like Venice, Florence, and the Cinque Terre are very popular and crowded in the summer.

nytraveler

You have an awful lot of places in limited amounts of time and this will definitely drive up your costs. I would reconsider what are must sees so you are better able to focus - have more time actually seeing the sights and enjoying the culture rather than rushing from one place to another.

Italy and Germany are way too rushed, and I think you will be frustrated at all the time sitting on trains versus visiting museums, churches, castles etc.

PalenQ

for lots of good train travel info I always spotlight these IMO fine sites - www.budgeteuropetravel.com; www.seat61.com and www.ricksteves.com. For schedules I always use the Wunderbar German Railways site - www.bahn.de. With that much rail travel consider some kind of railpass.

marciakaz

Thanks, PalenQ, for the rail site information. I have already discovered a couple of these, but will explore the rest. It looks like I will have to do a nuts and bolts comparison of railpass versus point to point tickets.

Mimar, unfortunately, our travel dates are dictated by my daughter's school schedule, so we can't leave before 15 June. I was a bit shocked by the hotel prices in Venice and Cinque Terre, even for the more basic accomodations.

kybourbon

>>>I will have to do a nuts and bolts comparison of railpass versus point to point tickets.<<<

You also need to look at budget flights between cities on airlines such as Easy Jet.

>>>We planned to take the night train from Venice to Naples to save time.<<<

Any night train between Venice and Naples would require changing trains somewhere which defeats the purpose.

You need to really rethink this itinerary (too busy). Make a list of arrival/departure times for each city. Add in how long it will take to check out of hotels, get to train stations, length of train trip, transport to new hotel, check-in time, etc. I think you will find you have much more on the road time than you think.

I like to fly into the destination that is the farthest away and get finished with the longest leg of travel (Naples? Munich?). Have you already booked your flights?

marciakaz

Kybourbon, thanks for your input. I will definitely scrutinize the time spent in transit. I will also look into the budget flights for a couple of the hops-I am wondering about how early to book those flights. That said, the Venice to Naples night train only stops in Rome, which is fine...I have to wake up anyway, and it's a short trip to Naples from there. My flights are not yet booked, which is one of the still unknown elements of my budget.

jamikins

Keep in mind that you will lose 1/2 a day each time you move when you account for checking out, packing, getting to the airport, waiting for the train or plane, travelling, then doing that all over again in reverse in an unfamiliar place. 2 nights somewhere gives you 1 full day, and 2 half days on either side! I would cut your locations so you have at least three nights in each place, if not more, do you spend your time seeing the places you are visiting rather than running from train station to train station with only a brief time actually enjoying the places you are spending alot of money to see.

London deserves 7 days, doing a day trip to the countryside. Check out www.walks.com for ideas.

Try http://www.aitagliapietra.com/ in Venice.

I would drop Naples and cinque Terre and focus on Rome, Florence and Venice in Italy. You really can't do more than 3 places in 11 nights. Pick your top three.

Fly open jaw into Rome and out of London to stop backtracking.

I would drop all 2 night stays...you have clearly felt they don't deserve as much time so leave them out this time and give them to your other locations.

Remember Europe will still be here for your next trip! Don't try to cover everything in one trip and end up 'seeing' very little!

Good luck!

kybourbon

>>>That said, the Venice to Naples night train only stops in Rome, which is fine<<<

It's not a stop. It's a train change. That train doesn't depart until 11:30, makes a dozen stops before arriving Rome at 6:20. Do you really think you would get a night's sleep? That's not even 7 hours on board. A rail pass won't include any sleeping accommodations either. I only see four person couchettes on this route as an option (checked multiple dates). Do you realize you will be sharing with other people?

You also have to factor in your luggage issues for your last day in Venice (and perhaps in other cities). You can only have a day or two in Venice at most. On your last day, you will have to check out of your hotel at 9 or 10 am. You will either have to take your luggage to the train station and put it in storage or see if your hotel will store it. If your hotel stores it, you have to allow time to go back to your hotel that night to retrieve it. Either way, allow plenty of time as lines can be long at luggage storage in the train station also.

Another thing you need to consider is figuring out the logistics in each city. It will take more time than what you think just figuring out transportation to sites, hotels, etc. You will get lost (more than once).

>>>Mimar, unfortunately, our travel dates are dictated by my daughter's school schedule, so we can't leave before 15 June.<<<

While your travel dates may be limited by your daughter's schedule, your number of countries you are attempting to visit are not. I think you need to drop more than the two night locations that jamikins suggests. I think you need to drop a couple of countries (Germany and Netherlands). With only 30 days, that leaves only 10 days each in Italy, France and England. Barely enough time to scratch the surface of those countries.

FYI - A rail pass will not include your seats (mandatory on most trains in Italy) or couchettes on night trains. I'm not sure Rick Steves keeps this list of rail pass supplements entirely up to date.
http://www.ricksteves.com/rail/pdfs/reservations.pdf

jamikins

ky - I totally agree. I meant to start by cutting and reallocating those nights and then taking a fresh look!

bigtyke

Although you do indeed spend a day each time you change cities, our family never considered the time on a train to be wasted. For us it was an important part of our trip.

marciakaz

For clarity's sake, we will be there for 6 weeks--actually 40 or 41 nights, depending on the flight choices. ky, can you please direct me to where you are seeing all of those stops for the nigth train? I've looked at Bahn and Trenitalia, and in both I see a Friday night ICN train with one change (Rome), and no stops are listed. Am I not looking at the right thing? You're right, I can't imagine sleeping if the train is stopping so much, so I want to be sure about that.

Certainly, I don't want to feel like I am spending more time on trains than doing what we're there to do, but I also thought train time is a good time to rest our feet, collect our thoughts and plans for the next destination, and to journal about the last destination.

I do appreciate the reality checks on my itinerary...but my OP was about budgeting, so please feel free to include tips and advice about that. Also, still would like to know what the practical timing is to book budget flights (i.e. Paris to Liverpool). Thanks!

marciakaz

I figured out how to see the stops...I also saw that there are fast trains available in the day time. Change of plans, which means sleeping another night in Venice (so expensive!). I think I will also switch my Naples nights to Rome, and do Naples as a day trip instead.

Gundy

For your longer stays in Paris and London, look into renting an apartment as opposed to a hotel room. It will give you more room and cost less. Plus, you can prepare some of your own meals. You might even be able to find apartments for 3-4 night stays, but this will be tougher.

I hear you about the sticker shock in Venice. I had it too. Try the Alloggi Marinella.