Ken

Finally surfacing from 11 days in London and three in Paris. Some thoughts on Eurostar (Channel Tunnel train. After viewing the cost on the Eurostar website, and reading comments here, I thought I might do better waiting until we got to London. The US version of the website is poorly designed and doesn't give a lot of information compared to the UK site. Unfortunately, you can't order from the UK site unless you have a UK address. So I waited. And for that, it ended up costing DOUBLE what it would have cost online--540 pounds for 2!!! <BR> <BR>We went anyway, thinking luxury, excitement, a fast trip. Mon Dieu! First we had to shlep our luggage up the escalator at Waterloo. (I discovered the Left Luggage charge in Waterloo is 4 pounds per piece per day, so it wasn't economical to leave two pieces there with four days' charges). The train is far from luxury, at least in steerage, as my wife calls "standard" class. The seats were like airline sear but don't recline. And you don't get a food trolley like the brochure and website make it sound. You get to walk to the food car, pay for the food (which really wasn't bad-try the tuna pasta salad) and carry it back to your seat. <BR> <BR>A few days earlier, both power cars of a train derailed in France. A bad omen? Of course. After exiting the tunnel, we stopped in the middle of nowhere while the engineer tried to repair the electrical pickup shoe. We sat for an hour, half the time without power and air conditioning, until they decided it couldn't be fixed. We waited another half hour for the dispatch center to figure out what to do. We limped into Lisle Europe where we were told another train would be waiting across the platform. Well, no train. Not for almost another hour while hundreds of us stood on the hot platform with our luggage waiting. <BR> <BR>So, the three hour luxury trip ended up arriving 3 1/2 hours late. Supposedly, we are getting our fares refunded. We'll see. <BR> <BR>So how was the way back? The train from London that we were to use going back didn't arrive in Paris until an hour and a half after our departure time. A train ahead of us had problems so we arrive back in London about two hours late. They offered a voucher for a free ticket good for one year but refused to substitute for those of us who have no chance of being in Europe again that soon. We're writing to complain on that one. <BR> <BR>Und zo, if you find a good air fare between London and Paris, or if they are reinacting the flotilla to Normandy as they did when we were there, take it and run and leave Eurostar behind. <BR> <BR> <BR>

Christina

Sounds like you had a lot of bad luck with the trains. I always view trains as a lot more reliable than airplanes in terms of leaving on time, etc., but I've never had that kind of problem. I'm not clear on what costs you are comparing, though, as 270 pounds a person RT (US$540?)seems incredible if you were in second class, as you say. Perhaps you didn't know it, but you can buy those tickets here from Raileurope and they are only $318 RT second class. I just don't understand this, I've never heard of anyone paying over US$500 for a RT Eurostar ticket in second class. Do you know why your tickets were so expensive, that isn't the norm, is it? I've never thought of the Eurostar as being luxury, though, it's just a high-speed train, unless you buy premium class which is about what the price of your tickets should buy (your price seems about half way between first and premium fares). I just find your fare difficult to understand, and I never would have paid over $500 for a RT train trip London-Paris, you can get airfare for a lot less than that by walking into some travel agency around Oxford St. or somewhere, don't know if this is still true, but they used to have real cheap walkup fares to Paris from London (although I had one of those flights delayed 2-3 hours, so you can't win on that).

Myriam

I posted my thoughts before, but I will repeat them again. We went to London from Brussels and back and found the Eurostar to be boring, time-taking and much too expensive for what it is. For that same price we could easily have taken a plane ticket Antwerp (where we live) to London Docklands which would have saved us at least 3 hours. <BR> <BR>The only good train connection I know in Europe is the Thalys from Antwerp or Brussels to Paris and the TGV further in France. These are real high speed trains at moderate cost. Worth their price.

Audrey

I think Ken just had a run of bad luck. The Eurostar is boring-true and by no means luxurious but for me, it's still the best (most convenient) way of getting from London to Paris. Don't pay the walk-up/full fare (which is what Ken did)- call an agent in the UK or use a US agent- whichever you prefer. The standard 2-week ahead cheap fare is only 69 pounds a person for standard class and 109 for first. There are cheap airtickets too (a 70-80 pound ticket is quite common) but often those also require a UK credit card or address if you book through the internet (Air France or BM sites) so it's not as if the air option will be much more convenient. Also you'll taxi fares from/to the airport from both sides. A taxi from the Gare du Nord to the left bank costs about 60FF. There are also no immigration procedures to go through on the Paris side- just walk out the train to the taxi stand.

Ken

Audrey, the standard class fare listed in the brochure is 270 pounds round trip. If we had purchased 14 days in advance, I could have gotten it cheaper but by the time we got to London, it was too late for that. The US website price only quotes one way fares but two one ways is approximately the US dollar equivalent to the 14 day advance fare RT in the brochure. <BR> <BR>I did not find the trip itself boring. I loved seeing the countryside, the sheep and cattle herds in the fields, the French countryside and zooming along at 100+ mph. Of course, I am also a steam locomotive engineer so I like trains in general. I guess the normal travel time might be better since you don't have to hassle with getting to and from airports and the cab ride to our hotel in Paris took us past Notre Dame and the Eiffel Tower with the lights twinkling, which was a nice intro to Paris after losing three hours of sightseeing time. There were a lot more things that went wrong this trip but those are for other messages. The question is, what do I do with my Eurostar mug?

igor

WE bought the tickets one or two days <BR>in advance from London and it cost <BR>us only 140 pounds for 2. The trip <BR>was very nice and comfortable. You are <BR>not splurging yourself in luxury but <BR>who cares (it is only 3 hours long) and <BR>then when you see Paris you forget about the whole trip very quickly. We did not have a lot of luggage so bring it on the escalators at the Waterloo was no problem.

susan

I had the same experience with the Eurostar: long delays on both legs of the trip, including a long wait on a platform for another train that wasn't broken, only mine was in the middle of the night. <BR> <BR>I also don't like the fact that the price of the tickets varies so much depending on where and when you buy them. I bought my ticket at the last minute in Paris and I got wildly disparate quotes from various sources. <BR> <BR>Its probably better to fly one of the low cost airlines that are springing up all over Europe.

igor

If you are traveling from downtown London to the downtown of Paris it would <BR>be insane to fly because of the time that it would take you to get to one of the London airports and the time it would take you to get from CDG Airport <BR>in paris to your hotel. Eurostar is so much more convenient.

Diane

I agree with Igor that Eurostar is more convenient, going from city center to city center. It's also more comfortable that a plane, even though the seats do not recline. The seating is two-by-two with a wider aisle, and (slightly) more leg room. We took the London-Paris round-trip in early June and had no delays in either direction. Too bad, Ken, that you had such bad luck! <BR> <BR>BTW, at 7 p.m.we took the metro to our destination beyond Montparnasse station and managed OK with our luggage (four pieces for three people) but had a long walk (including OUTSIDE) at the Montparnasse station to transfer to <BR>the other line. Returning, we treated outselves to a cab, but it cost 115FF (extra for our luggage). Were we gypped?

igor

Gare De Nord in Paris is very convinient for those who are <BR>staying in the 1st district. We stayed <BR>near Chattau Metro station and the cab <BR>ride from the train station to the hotel <BR>was only 60 FF. It costs us twice as <BR>much on our way back though (we ordered <BR>the taxi but were 5 minutes late and they charged us 60 FF for that). What a <BR>rip off!!!

Ken

From Hotel de la Bourdonnais near the Ecole Militaire to Gard du Nord was around 90ff plus tip, if I remember correctly. We had 3 suitcases and two carryons, which we took in the back to avoid additional charges. At least in Paris the cab drivers helped with the luggage. In England, we loaded and unloaded our own except for one trip.

xx

Funny thing. If this had been a plane trip rather than Eurostar, no one would bat an eye on a three-hour delay on a three-hour trip. Sadly, it happens all the time, and no airline has ever given me a refund, or even a free drink. So why would we expect things to be different on Eurostar? As for all of that luggage on a two-week trip, well, that is the risk you run when you overpack. Sorry things didn't work out, Ken.

Ed

We flew British Airways from London to Paris and did the Eurostar on the return. <BR> <BR>The Eurostar flew through France and was slower than London's Central metro line going through England(if you ride the Central, you'll understand).. more stop and go than on the LA freeways. We arrived at Watterloo about 20 minutes late, and they announced the delay was due to speed restrictions outside of Paris, which generated many gunts from the French passengers. I guess, that stop and go in England is normal. <BR> <BR>There are some deals out of the secondary airports in London, but not Heathrow or Gatwick to Paris, and British Midland does have some internet fares that won't cost a fortune. Just a hint - If you have some American Express miles, you can transfer them to Virgin Atlantic's freeway miles and trade them for Eurostar tickets, to keep the costs down. <BR> <BR>Timewise, it's about even, especially if you don't use the Heathrow Express into London. <BR> <BR>There's no thrill in the chunnel, just 20 minutes of darkness. <BR> <BR>

Kavey

I have to stay I prefer Eurostar hands down over plane, having done both several times. <BR> <BR>People always look at journey time when they compare. Actually if you factor in the hours you have to get to the airport in advance (opposed to 20mins for Eurostar) and the time spent claiming luggae at the other end off the plane, not to mention the travel time to the airport and from the airport back into central london or paris the eurostar is much quicker. <BR> <BR>Furthermore I find it more comfortable than the cheap airlines. If you're bringing cost into it it is only fair to compare the train to the cheaper flights. You can stretch, walk around and have a much better view from the window. <BR> <BR>Cost wise I cant comment, but I have never paid more than £69 UK for a ticket, though i do book in UK as i love here. <BR> <BR>In terms of luxury, if I pay 100uk for a flight to paris i expect "steerage" so i dont expect the orient express for the same price from eurostar... you have to compare like for like. <BR> <BR>Compare Concorde with Orient Express and Eurostar with any normal standard class flight seat to Paris. <BR> <BR>In terms of refunds, as it was pointed out, we get nothing for 3 hour flight delays and if you had booked flights this weekend you wouldnt have got to paris at all with the ATC strike, there can be problems in train and plane travel. Overall I think eurostar suffers less than flights, though I havent any data to back that up! <BR> <BR>However it is Eurostar themselves who offer refunds etc as a goodwill gesture. <BR> <BR>Note that they dont have to for shorter delays, they choose to do so as good cust service. I know as I tried to claim a refund for a single delayed journey. <BR> <BR>What I did was before asking for refund asked for a copy of the service level agreement which mentioned all rules for refunds etc. <BR> <BR> <BR>Kavey

Christine

I'm with the Eurostar fans. I've lived in Paris and in London and it was by far the cheapest and most convenient way to travel between these cities. I've always left right on time too. Sounds like you really had bad luck. My fares were all about what the others mentioned too -- less than $200 RT. Cheaper than flying, especially when you factor in the trains or cabs to the airports. Sorry your trip was such a bummer!

Ken

I will admit I enjoyed the view as I like to see some of the countryside rather than clouds. And perhaps we are spoiled with free airline food, which doesn't really make up for the cramped quarters. I just feel that the way the whole 3 1/2 hour delay was handled was pitiful. <BR> <BR>As to xx's comments on too much luggage, we did take a hint that our two suitcases and a carryon bag weren't "full" when we left. However, four Tower of London gift shops, Oxford St and a few other places filled those pieces pretty well. By the time we hit Paris, there wasn't enough room for more, so it was cheaper to buy a small carryon sized softside case at Printemps than to ship items back via mail, and we can use the small case on future short hops.

John

Oh I think there are lots of things about the Eurostar to gripe about. I think the Waterloo departure arrangements were choreographed by nitwits, with a couple of trains leaving within moments of each other and everyone pushing through the same doors and racing around the platforms like rodents. And the tunnel is dark (being a tunnel) and there can be track- or traffic-generated delays, and the food is pricey and the beer runs out and blah blah. <BR> <BR>But geez, people. Think about it. A tunnel from Britain to France. What an achievement, and after centuries of insularity and fear, what a vote of confidence for peace and civility! I think we tend to get a bit blasé about the wonders of the day; we tend to bitch about things which our ancestors would view as flat-out miracles. This goes for air travel, too, and it doesn't justify being treated poorly, but I still get a chill at the thought of watching the cars outside the train window driving on the left, then dark for a few minutes, then light again and they're on the right. It IS an unremarkable crossing, and IMO that makes it miraculous.

Diana

I guess everyone's experience is different (luck of the draw) but my Eurostar trip was wonderful. I got a discounted ticket from a travel agent in London for the London to Brussels trip. It makes no sense if you are going downtown to downtown to go by air. The time and cost of getting to and from the airport itself makes the train worthwhile. It wasn't luxurious, it's a train (have you ever taken Amtrak New York to DC?). but the snack trolley did come through on my trip in 2nd class. Based on my experience I would recommend it. <BR>

John

I'm with the Eurostar fans. We have taken it twice (Brussells-London this spring and Paris-London four years ago). <BR> <BR>Both times we went first class and purchased our tickets months ahead of time in the USA. <BR> <BR>Both trains were pretty much on schedule, and the food and service was wonderful. View of the countryside were supurb. <BR> <BR>We will take the train over planes any time any where.

mwb

I'll have to agree with Ken on most points. Two of us paid $190 pp to go for a day trip to london. The train departed at 7:00 am, **BUT** was late arriving at **3:00**pm. We had two hours in london, promised a refund, but have not seen it yet. <BR> <BR>Here's what i suggest. Fly from paris to london - or walk it's faster. Air on EasyJet/RyanAir is &lt;$150 pp. And its only an hour or less flight. <BR> <BR>Scr*w the EuroStar. <BR>