degas

Okay, let’s cut to the chase - many of us love to dream about retiring to France or Italy!

Nothing new there, but here is the rub; how much will it cost us to pull it off. Let’s set aside all the politics about leaving the US or the kids or the dogs and cats. Let’s talk bottom-line costs.

So, to stimulate discussion, let’s say we want to rent a modest two bedroom apartment (1000 -1200 sq ft in Lyon or Dijon. Locate it in a safe, centrally located middle class area. Plan for no car at first and we will use public transport.

I know it’s a bit subjective, but we is dreaming here so some haziness is allowed.

Rent:
Electric
Water
Garbage pick up
Heat
AC
Internet access
Cable TV
Home phone
Cell phone
Groceries
Gym
Transportation
Healthcare
Rental and/or liability insurance

Note: Leave out clothing, eating out and booze.

What will it add up to? What costs did we leave out? What websites can help us come to our senses or live our dreams down the road?

ira

Hi D,

You have to include your wine bill.

degas

ira, I know, I know, but let's not doom the project at the very start.

Health care might be the deal-breaker.

Nonconformist

Tax.

Underhill

Health care in France is excellent, some of the best in the world, at considerably less expensive than in the U.S. However..you probably know already that Medicare does not cover you outside the U.S. So you would need some sort of policy; try a Google search for expatriate health policies to get an idea of the cost.

I'm sure that Coco can give you an idea of rental costs in Dijon, as well as some of the others you need for your calculations.

Now, if you were interested in a lovely house outside Vaison-la-Romaine with A/C and an American kitchen...

Dave_in_Paris

The tax bills for nonwage earners, excluding TVA on purchases, would be the redevance audiovisuel (television tax) and the tax d'habitation (lodging occupancy tax). The former is approximately 145 euros. The latter varies with lodging size and locality but per your sketch, probably around 600 euros.

hopscotch

Here is a web site that will get you started.
http://tinyurl.com/ymwge3

kerouac

I can give a few figures concerning my latest bills in Paris. I own my apartment (3 rooms + kitchen, bathroom, entry, etc.).
The apartment is all electric (including heat) -- 50€/month most of the year, 100€/month in December to March. Internet DSL 29€/month. Phone 30€/month all inclusive for 4h of phone calls to all of Europe and North America - calls beyond 4h charged about 1 cent a minute + 8 cent connection fee. Cell phone 15€/month for 1 hour (but I actually have 2h with fidelity points). Transportation - metro pass 48€/month. Collective ownership car rental 2.29€ an hour + 29 cents per km when needed, including gasoline & insurance. Health care - mutual insurance about 50€ a month, refunding about 98% of all expenses. Home insurance 180€ per year.
Things like water and garbage and sidewalk cleaning taxes are included in the 'building charges' - 30€/month.

kerouac

Oh, and my 'habitation tax' is 87€ a year because I live in an old building. Annual property tax is 92€.
Some of my colleagues in the suburbs have to pay 4000€ in property tax, but living in Paris has the advantage of having businesses to finance most of the municipal budget.

blackduff

degas
Look at your list.

<i>Rent:
Electric
Water
Garbage pick up
Heat
<b>AC</b>
Internet access
<b>Cable TV</b>
<b>Home phone</b>
Cell phone
Groceries
<b>Gym</b>
Transportation
Healthcare
Rental and/or liability insurance
</i>

The items in bold font probably can be dropped. Forget the A/C. You should be getting cheap in France. I've lived there without any A/C and it's great.

Cable TV can be dropped. You could get a dish and the Digibox for Sky programs.

The telephone for the home can be included with the internet access.

Gym-Can't you walk a bit. You can even some of your transportation costs by walking.

Okay, maybe I'm trying to cut down your expenses. I usually consider I'll need over $36,000 per year for living, etc.. My house is paid and I have two cars both paid. Right now the low dollar probably is skewered a bit but more or less you can live decently on this price. Of course I'm not in the Parisian area.

Again, I ride a bike to save money on gyms. I also have a sat dish, so no cable. Etc., Etc..

But life is great here in France.

Blackduff

kerouac

Oh, I forgot cable TV from my list -- that's 40&euro; a month, for about 90 channels, but sometimes you wonder -- a few weeks ago the Paris cable service added Armenia, Turkey, Dubai, Libya, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Sharjah, Kuwait, Oman, etc., and of course Al Jazeera English service, which is excellent. But some of us might have appreciated a new set of stations from Europe or the Americas.

hanl

To give you an idea of rental costs in Lyon, from 2002-2004 we rented a 2 bedroom, modern garden flat in Lyon for around 750 euros per month. The surface area was around 70 sq. m (approx 750 square feet), and the garden was about 50 sq. m. It was located near a metro station in a desirable neighbourhood. We also had to pay agency fees when we first rented the flat (around 1 month's rent) plus a deposit equivalent to 2 months' rent. I don't remember how much we paid for utilities - around 150 euros per quarter I think. Our &quot;taxe d'habitation&quot; was high, however, as the building was modern and in a residential area - over 1000 euros per year.

Dave_in_Paris

&quot;My 'habitation tax' is 87&euro; a year because I live in an old building. Annual property tax is 92&euro;.&quot;

Hmmm... Kerouac, maybe I should move to your building. In 2005, the bill for tax d'habitation in our early 19th-century building in the 11th arrondissement, a small two-bedroom apartment, 60 square meters, was 677 euros. (Perhaps higher because there were two of us, but that can't explain it all.) The tax fonciere (property tax) for same was 403 euros.

kerouac

I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that the 'cadastre' is not updated any time soon. All of the property values for taxation purposes were set about 40 years ago and obviously neighborhoods have changed considerably since then.

superheterodyne

&gt;&gt; let’s say we want to rent a modest two bedroom apartment (1000 -1200 sq ft in Lyon or Dijon. &lt;&lt;

1000 - 1200 sq feet is already above &quot;modest&quot; in France for a two-bedroom, you will find them in the 60-80 sq meter range.


&gt;&gt; Rent: &lt;&lt;

In Dijon, you may get off with 700 euros. More in Lyon.

&gt;&gt; Electric
Water &lt;&lt;

Depends whether you have elctric heating or other. On the whole, count on 800 to 1000 &euro;/year for energy.

&gt;&gt; Garbage pick up &lt;&lt;

Included in your local tax.

&gt;&gt; Heat
AC &lt;&lt;

See above, also as stated, AC is not really necessary (maybe in Lyon, however... very hot in summer)

&gt;&gt; Internet access
Cable TV
Home phone &lt;&lt;

All of the three included in the &quot;triple-play&quot; DSL access. 29 euro/month, with unlimited phone in France, the US and other countries.

&gt;&gt; Cell phone &lt;&lt;

30 &euro; should be enough.

&gt;&gt; Groceries &lt;&lt;

Dunno your habits...

&gt;&gt; Gym &lt;&lt;

No idea !

&gt;&gt;
Transportation
&lt;&lt;

Will you drive ?


&gt;&gt; Healthcare &lt;&lt;

Will you work ?

&gt;&gt; Rental and/or liability insurance &lt;&lt;

Rental about 15&euro;/month, civil liability grossly the same.

superheterodyne

Sorry for the &quot;will you work&quot; question - I hadn't catched up with the fact that this was a plan for retirement. I don't know how you will get away with healthcare in this case.

degas

Thanks for the very interesting and informative feedback.

I guess the 1000-1200 sq ft idea was a little off base. I'll practice living in my garage to get used to downsizing.

Michael

Out in the middle of nowhere--the hamlet has no stores and the nearest one is 4 km. away-- I pay 400&euro; in property tax for what is an open field (a farmer cuts the hay around the house) and 320&euro; for the <i>taxe d'habitation</i>.

kerouac

Both of those taxes are set by the &quot;d&eacute;partement&quot;. Unfortunately, the less industry and commerce in a d&eacute;partement, the higher the habitation and property taxes.

kerouac

Interesting report on the channel 2 evening news in France tonight: the continuing attraction of France for people around the world.
The report was about a South African couple who left South Africa twelve years ago -- first to Kenya, then to Mauritius and then to France. Naturally they love it -- the food, the joie de vivre, all that stuff -- otherwise it would not have made the news.

Anyway, what is interesting is the way they make their living -- with an expat website, which is : www.angloinfo.com -- I have not investigated it yet, but apparently it is supposed to be a very useful resource for people wanting to live in France.