kco530

Hello!

I'm planning a trip with my husband to Germany in September (30 year olds, interested in food, beer, culture, architecture, nature; not particularly interested in WWII history). Dates are not set in stone and nothing is booked, but we will have about 2 weeks of time. We would prefer to take trains rather than drive. I started to plan this trip a few years ago but we didn't end up going, so we are really looking forward to it!

Part of the trip will be to meet up with a group of friends in Munich for Oktoberfest and then spend a couple days together in Salzburg. We were planning on spending at least 3 days in Munich, then 2 to 3 in Salzburg. So, that will pretty much consume 1 of our 2 weeks. The other week will be just me and my husband, so we are trying to figure where best to spend our time. We have never been to Germany, so many things sound interesting to us. We usually take "slow" trips, focusing on just one or two cities with small day trips, but for this trip we expect to be moving around a bit more, which is okay with us (we're not very good at "relaxing", haha).

A couple things we are trying to figure out:

(1) We have access to a very affordable roundtrip nonstop flight to Paris that runs daily from our city. We took advantage of this flight last year and spent almost 2 full weeks just in Paris (i.e., we don't feel inclined to spend more time in Paris just yet). We are considering using this flight to Paris again and then taking a train Munich, with a day or so in Strasbourg on the way. Perhaps we would spend the rest of our extra time between Strasbourg and Munich in the Black Forest area. So, Paris --> Strasbourg --> Black Forest (haven't done enough research yet to decide which town(s) --> Munich --> Salzburg --> Paris (via Munich)

I know this sounds kind of crazy, but the flight was just so cheap, convenient and pleasant that we may be willing to plan our trip around it. The problem is we seem to be more interested in some of the small towns around Munich (especially Bamberg) than the Black Forest. Maybe there is way to work Bamberg in, though.

(2) Our second option is to fly into and out Frankfurt, another affordable (though slightly less so, and with an international layover) flight on a budget airline. For this option we would take the train from Frankfurt to Nuremberg and spend a night/day there, then take to the train to Munich. We would spend our time with friends there and in Salzburg, then leave them to take a train to Bamberg (we are particularly interested in this town and would hate to miss it) and maybe Rothenberg and spend a few days there. So,
Frankfurt --> Nuremberg --> Munich -->Salzburg --> Bamberg/Rothenberg/other? --> Frankfurt

As I said, the towns in the second option sound more interesting to us, but the nonstop flight is just so hard to pass up.

(3) We could suck it up and just fly into Munich on an expensive flight (Oktoberfest) with a layover. Haha.

What do you all think? Are either of these rough itineraries feasible for 2 weeks of time? I've looked up the train schedules and the train times seem like they would fit. Completely open to any ideas, including alternative towns that would better fit, etc. Thank you!!

thursdaysd

The flight to Paris is false economy, since it is not where you want to be. In fact, while the flight to Paris is non-stop, your actual journey to your first desired city is not non-stop, as you have to change to a train. Plus you would be wasting time in a city that doesn't particularly interest you (although I, personally, love Strasbourg). Then you are retracing your steps back to Paris, wasting more time and money.

Look for the multicity option on sites like skyscanner and kayak. What is your airport? You should be able to fly to Munich with just one change.

janisj

Just a quick note -- If I got a REALLY cheap flight into Paris, I had no interest in seeing Paris, and Munich was my main focus . . . I'd fly into CDG and then fly on from CDG to Munich the same day.

But you will have to travel back to Paris the evening before your flight home -- so that cheap flight might be a false economy . . .

janisj

we were posting at the same time.

kco530

Strasbourg does sound interesting to us, for what it's worth.

The flight to CDG is about $650 roundtrip, which is half the price of flying into and out of Munich. Thanks for the thoughts--I'll search around some more tomorrow and see what I can find!

kco530

Have had a bit of time to look at flight alternatives. Seems we could reach a happy medium price-wise and time-wise to fly into Frankfurt and out of Munich (or perhaps reversed).

So, Frankfurt --> Bamberg/Nuremberg/Rothenberg? --> Munich --> Salzburg (+ day trip to Berchtesgaden?) --> Munich

This would give us about a week or so in Munich and Salzburg, with an additional week to visit small towns on the way from Frankfurt to Munich.

Fussgaenger

"Seems we could reach a happy medium price-wise and time-wise to fly into Frankfurt and out of Munich..."

That was on the tip of my tongue. Perfect.

Let's say it's Munich/Salzburg first.

I would then allocate 4 nights for Franconia (Nuremberg, Bamberg, Würzburg, Rothenburg, Bad Windsheim, Iphofen... all are worthwhile, choice just depends on your tastes.

Iphofen - an obscure little gem w/emphasis on art/wine:
http://tramino.s3.amazonaws.com/s/ip...en-english.pdf
http://tramino.s3.amazonaws.com/s/ip...en-english.pdf

You can book all 4 nights in one place. Either Würzburg or Nuremberg would be best as both are train hubs with good connections to each other and the other towns. Day passes get two from place to place for around €20-€30/day, depending on the trips and your base town. The day passes are also valid on all inner-city transport (buses, trams, subways.)

3 more nights: I suggest the Middle Rhine Valley, about 1 hour NW of FRA... 40 castles in 40 miles of river, surrounded by old-world villages, vineyards - great outdoor walks and scenery.

http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1066

Bacharach, Oberwesel and St. Goar are all great towns. St. Goar is best for outings by train - and for a river cruise (take the train south to Bingen, cruise north to St. Goar - that's the best part.)

Stay in Bingen if you want to be closer to FRA. Not as cute but w/ an awesome view of the River if you book the NH Bingen hotel, right on the river walk. It's a view you'll have every morning from the breakfast hall:

https://foto.hrsstatic.com/fotos/0/3...raum-30116.jpg

The direct RE trains to FRA airport's train station take about 50 minutes.

PalenQ

. We would prefer to take trains rather than drive.>

For general train info in France and Germany check these: www.bahn.de/en -official site of German Railways for schedules, fares and booking yourself; www.seat61.com; www.budgeteuropetravel.com and www.ricksteves.com.

If traveling a lot on faster trains check out the German (Twin) Railpass which also takes you to Salzburg, Brussels, Venice and Prague - lets you hop on any of zillions of trains just by showing up.

kco530

Wow, thank you, Fussgaenger! That is great that we could stay put in one town in Franconia. And thank you for suggesting Middle Rhine Valley--I had not thought of that option. I'm excited to do more research!

Thank you for the train info as well!

kco530

After watching ticket prices for a couple weeks we found great roundtrip tickets to Munich, so we bought them! We will have 14 nights and about 13 days. We've done a bit more research on what towns we would be interested in and have also coordinated our dates with our friends, who we will meet up with in Munich and Salzburg.

I think we will have to save Middle Rhine Valley for another trip since we aren't flying into FRA anymore. That leaves us 5-6 days in Franconia, 3-4 in Munich, 2 in Salzburg, and 2 in Berchtesgaden. Bamberg is our biggest priority in Franconia. We are very interested in beer, and there are a lot of places we would like to try in that town.

Here is what we are thinking:

Sat 9/9 – Flight to MUC

Sun 9/10 - Arrive to MUC 9:00 AM. Take train from MUC to Bamberg. Spend day and night in Bamberg.

Mon 9/11 – Day and night in Bamberg

Tues 9/12 – Day trip to Wurzburg (wine!). Night in Bamberg.

Wed 9/13 – Day in Bamberg. Night in Bamberg.

Thurs 9/14 – Train to Nuremberg in AM. Spend day and night in Nuremberg.

Fri 9/15 – Day trip to Regensburg? Night in Nuremberg. (Alternatively we could arrive to Munich a day early for a day of sightseeing alone before we we meet up with our friends tomorrow.)

Sat 9/16 -Train to Munich in AM. Watch Oktoberfest parade and tapping of keg. We have already booked our hotel, which is near Theresienwiese and the parade route. Our friends arrive early afternoon. Tour Munich in afternoon.

Sun 9/17 – General tour Munich day/night.

Mon 9/18 – Oktoberfest beer tent day. We will likely be spending the entire day at Oktoberfest.

Tues 9/19 – Leave for Salzburg in AM w/our friends. We have already booked our hotel. Day and night in Salzburg.

Wed 9/20 – Day and night in Salzburg.

Thurs 9/21 – Train to Berchtesgaden in AM. Visit town, Lake Königssee, Lake Obersee. Spend night here. Have already booked hotel.

Fri 9/22 – Day in Berchtesgaden. Visit Eagle’s Nest/Obersalzburg.

Option 1: Train to Freising in evening. This would get us close to MUC but without Munich Oktoberfest hotel prices. Maybe visit Weihenstephaner for dinner/beer if we get there early enough, which we would enjoy, so it wouldn't be a wasted night.

Option 2: Train to Salzburg in evening. Spend one more night in Salzburg. Take early morning train to MUC. This option worries me a little timewise, though.

Sat 9/23 – Breakfast in Freising. Train to MUC. Fly out of MUC around 1 pm.

Still playing around with the Franconia itinerary. The only things set in stone are our flights, Munich hotel, Salzburg hotel, and Berchtesgaden hotel.

Any thoughts or suggestions, especially on things we are still up in there air about (i.e., Franconia itinerary, whether to arrive to Munich a day early on 9/15, and what to do the night before we leave)? Hopefully the stuff we have booked is okay! Thanks again for your awesome advice!!!

PalenQ

All your train trips seem to fall within Bavaria so to travel cheaply look at the bargain Bavaria Pass where several can travel on regional trains and urban transports for a whole day for around 30-35 euros total. Can't use fast trains but for most of those trips they are not needed - pass covers you to Salzburg too. Buy at stations for a day at a time as you go - no need to pre-book. Reservations not even accepted on regional trains.

sla019

So you are giving two days to Bamberg and just one to Nuremberg. As much I like Bamberg, I'd do that the other way round. Nünrberg has a beautiful historical center, much bigger than Bamberg, and a great historical museum, and in addition there is the interesting Nazi rally ground documentation center. If you are planning a daytrip to Rothenburg o.d.T., it's much easier done from Nürnberg than from Bamberg. If you prefer longer stays in one place, you could even skip your overnight stays in Bamberg and do everything from Nuremberg: Rothenburg (1:10), Bamberg (0:45-55 S-Bahn or RE), Würzburg (1:10-1:20, RE), Regensburg (1:02 with the fastest RE). Rothenburg and Bamberg are accesible with a VGN ticket (19E for 2 adults and all children), Würzburg and Regensburg with a Bayern Ticket (31E for two).

PalenQ

Thurs 9/14 – Train to Nuremberg in AM. Spend day and night in Nuremberg.>

If into WW2 history Nurnberg is a great place - be sure to check out Hitler's and Nazis' old parade grounds a few kms south of town by train or S-Bahn - here is the stadium balcony the Fuhrer (in)famously reviewed zillions of perfectly goose-stepping elite troops - the granite blocked parade grounds are still there and go for miles it seems -you can actually stand right where Hitler stood in the old balcony but check out the Nazi Documentation Centre as well as various stadia and statuary, etc.

After the Nurnberg Trials the Allies ordered the Germans to build a documentation center showcasing how the Nazis came to power and their ruthless means and horrors perpetrated - it is in the Parade Grounds area.

http://www.history-of-germany.com/?s...zi_doc_center&

kco530

Thank you--Good to know about the Bavaria pass.

Like I said, Bamberg is a priority for us. We love beer and want to have time to enjoy it there, especially in the evenings. We could possibly remove Wednesday afternoon/evening from Bamberg and allocate it to Nuremberg, but I'm not sure we would want to take away more than that. That would give us 3 nights Bamberg and 3 nights Nuremberg?

We weren't planning on visiting Rothenburg. It seemed Wurzburg would be a better day trip from Bamberg, and we would like to see the Residenz and try the wine. Regensburg seems interesting (architecture, St. Peter’s Church--husband loves gothic cathedrals), but we could part with it if the time could be better spent in Nuremberg.

The Nazi Documentation Center sounds interesting. We are not WWII history buffs, but it would be good to see a little. It looks like a very worthwhile place to visit--thank you!

sla019

>After the Nurnberg Trials the Allies ordered the Germans to build a documentation center showcasing how the Nazis came to power

The documentation center was established by the City of Nuremberg in 2001 only, not after the war and not by order of The Allies. Unfortunately, the site you are quoting is poorly informed. E.g., it's claim that Riefestahls propaganda film shows Hitlers "neoclassical Disneyland" is wrong too. It refers to the rally of 1934 and the backdrop of the film is the nearby Luitpoldhain. The construction of the neclassicistic congress hall begun in 1934 only. For historical reliable information please refer to the webseite of the documentation center: https://museums.nuernberg.de/documentation-center/ .

sla019

BTW, for an intrductory Nuremberg itinerary look here (3rd posting): http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...the-danube.cfm

PalenQ

The documentation center was established by the City of Nuremberg in 2001 only, not after the war and not by order of The Allies.>

thanks for that -I should have questioned that because I was at the Parade Grounds a bit before 2001 and did not remember it or would have visited it for sure.

thought it looked like a reliable source and much of it was - but I learnt long ago from writing articles before the Internet -I would check multiple guidebooks and even in major ones was so much conflicting and simply wrong info.

I am sorry about the mistake -it sounded logical -thanks again.

Nuremberg is a fascinating town in its own right-few blitzed towns taking the time to piece themselves back together again in a style based on the old - unlike so many other cities which did not.

PalenQ

Thank you--Good to know about the Bavaria pass.>

that pass comes in first class too I believe and not all that much more - regional trains can get really crowded at rush hours or times they act like school buses IME but first class always has had seats - that said not all regional trains have first class. Ask when buying at stations.

Fussgaenger

"Sun 9/10 - Arrive to MUC 9:00 AM. Take train from MUC to Bamberg. Spend day and night in Bamberg.

Mon 9/11 – Day and night in Bamberg"

That first day looks like a bear... After an international red-eye flight I'm more interested in getting a shower and settling in somewhere than anything else... with your plan it may be 10:00 before you're ready to board the train from MUN - and that's if your flight is right on time. Then it's a 3-hour train trip from MUC to Bamberg on 2-3 different trains, 4 hours if you use the Bayern ticket (which requires slower regional trains.)

IMO it would be much wiser to make the much shorter trip to REGENSBURG for one night (1.5 hours) on 9/10. See a little more of R'burg on 9/11 too. Then move on to Bamberg in the PM for 4 nights (nights 9/11-14) and do your day trip to Würzburg from there. On 9/15 you travel to Nuremberg (one train, 45 min's) for the day - stow bags in a locker, see the city - and then in the pm move on to Munich (2 hours on slower trains) for the night.

IMO the Rally Grounds don't offer that much. It might be worth the trip out there in combination with the Documenatation center if you had 2 days for Nuremberg altogether. But for a one-day visit, I'd probably just enjoy Nuremberg proper, a really nice place to spend some time with plenty to see for a one-day outing.
http://tourismus.nuernberg.de/en/dis...s-of-interest/

kco530

Thank you, Fussgaenger! I like that idea. Exactly the insight I was looking for! I think I would still consider getting a hotel on 9/15 in Nuremberg, though, as Munich is much more expensive due to Oktoberfest. If we left Regensberg reasonably early on 9/16 I think we could drop our luggage off at our hotel and have plenty of time to get to the parade (all within walking distance of the train station). Although, there is something to say for being settled for the night. I'll think about it. =)