Apartment scams in Paris?
Nov 18th, 2008, 11:09 PM
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Apartment scams in Paris?
Dear Fodorites -
Here's some context, then some questions:
My family (wife and I, two sons 7 and 11) are planning our first family trip to
Europe - a week in Paris just before Christmas. Plane tickets are already bought.
Both my wife and I have travelled to Europe before, but the kids have not.
I have been to Paris a few times, but have only stayed in hotels
(once I rented a friend's apartment for several weeks a LONG time ago).
This time, we are looking for an apartment for our stay.
For various reasons, including info from
a Fodor thread we have read, we are leaning towards the
14th arrondissement. There seem to be a fair number of listings still
available near the Montparnasse cemetery for 600-800
euros per week, which is the range we are looking at: one bedrooms which sleep
four. When I say 600-800, I mean that this our desired range including all taxes and fees.
For the apartments we have been seeing on the web, security deposits seem to be about
1000 euros, and advance deposit is about 30%.
So ... after a wordy intro, here are my questions:
1) How do you avoid getting scammed on these apartments?
2) Even if the apartment is legit, I would very much like to avoid the
prospect of having to convert dollars to euros for the security deposit,
then converting back again. Is this avoidable?
3) Then there is the security deposit refund issue - if the owner
is unscrupulous, they can claim damages to the apartment (that of course
is a trick which is used from Texas to Timbuktu, so it is a little hard
to imagine that there is a remedy for this which is unique to France). Any
ideas about this?
4) Do legit apartment owners have to include (or pay from their own
pocket ) a VAT? If so, what percentage of the rent is this usually?
Of course, a lot of this worry could be avoided if someone knows
of a legit agency/owner whom they have dealt with in the past. And of
course, it could be avoided by staying at a hotel, but we really would
like the conveniences of the apartment.
If you have read this far, you are a very patient person! Any help
would be greatly appreciated.
Here's some context, then some questions:
My family (wife and I, two sons 7 and 11) are planning our first family trip to
Europe - a week in Paris just before Christmas. Plane tickets are already bought.
Both my wife and I have travelled to Europe before, but the kids have not.
I have been to Paris a few times, but have only stayed in hotels
(once I rented a friend's apartment for several weeks a LONG time ago).
This time, we are looking for an apartment for our stay.
For various reasons, including info from
a Fodor thread we have read, we are leaning towards the
14th arrondissement. There seem to be a fair number of listings still
available near the Montparnasse cemetery for 600-800
euros per week, which is the range we are looking at: one bedrooms which sleep
four. When I say 600-800, I mean that this our desired range including all taxes and fees.
For the apartments we have been seeing on the web, security deposits seem to be about
1000 euros, and advance deposit is about 30%.
So ... after a wordy intro, here are my questions:
1) How do you avoid getting scammed on these apartments?
2) Even if the apartment is legit, I would very much like to avoid the
prospect of having to convert dollars to euros for the security deposit,
then converting back again. Is this avoidable?
3) Then there is the security deposit refund issue - if the owner
is unscrupulous, they can claim damages to the apartment (that of course
is a trick which is used from Texas to Timbuktu, so it is a little hard
to imagine that there is a remedy for this which is unique to France). Any
ideas about this?
4) Do legit apartment owners have to include (or pay from their own
pocket ) a VAT? If so, what percentage of the rent is this usually?
Of course, a lot of this worry could be avoided if someone knows
of a legit agency/owner whom they have dealt with in the past. And of
course, it could be avoided by staying at a hotel, but we really would
like the conveniences of the apartment.
If you have read this far, you are a very patient person! Any help
would be greatly appreciated.
Nov 18th, 2008, 11:31 PM
#2
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Hi mister_bic,
The most obvious response would be to book your apartment through a reputable rental service. By this means make a small payment to secure the booking. I have not seen damage deposits as high as 1000 Euro, I would be quite wary os anything more than 150, given your proposed budget.
Here are a couple of suggestions that you might be interested in.
18th, 660 for week, 1 bedroom.
http://www.waytostay.com/Paris-apart...n-109-2522.htm
14th, 630 Euro for the week but a studio.
http://www.waytostay.com/Paris-apart...n-109-2769.htm
Some owners will also offer to receive the deposit by credit card or travellers cheque, or swap your Euros with friends on your return.
The most obvious response would be to book your apartment through a reputable rental service. By this means make a small payment to secure the booking. I have not seen damage deposits as high as 1000 Euro, I would be quite wary os anything more than 150, given your proposed budget.
Here are a couple of suggestions that you might be interested in.
18th, 660 for week, 1 bedroom.
http://www.waytostay.com/Paris-apart...n-109-2522.htm
14th, 630 Euro for the week but a studio.
http://www.waytostay.com/Paris-apart...n-109-2769.htm
Some owners will also offer to receive the deposit by credit card or travellers cheque, or swap your Euros with friends on your return.
Nov 19th, 2008, 02:40 AM
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My wife and I have rented over 20 apartments and houses in France over the past decade, all without difficulty. Here are a few ideas that might help you:
1) How do you avoid getting scammed on these apartments?
A mixture of research and good judgement. Search here on Fodor’s (try http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=35159017 first, or search by the name of the owner or the name of the apartment or a phrase like “apartment rue des Archives”) or TripAdvisor or SlowTravel (www.slowtrav.com) to see if anyone else has rented the place you are interested in. You can also Google the name of the apartment or the owner’s name and see if it produces anything useful. We also get into a fair amount of back and forth communication with the owner, either by e-mail or by phone. It isn’t foolproof, but it gives us an idea of what they are like. And finally, do not hesitate to ask the owner to connect you to previous tenants for references.
2) Even if the apartment is legit, I would very much like to avoid the
prospect of having to convert dollars to euros for the security deposit,
then converting back again. Is this avoidable?
Yes, we have avoided it in every case where an owner has asked for a security deposit. If it is a small amount, we offer to give it to them in euros (cash) on arrival and ask that they return the cash the day we leave. If a large amount, we offer to give them a personal cheque in our currency (which happens to be Canadian) for an amount equivalent to the euros. They hold they cheque uncashed and return it to us on departure or mail it to us when we return. Never had a problem.
3) Then there is the security deposit refund issue - if the owner
is unscrupulous, they can claim damages to the apartment (that of course
is a trick which is used from Texas to Timbuktu, so it is a little hard
to imagine that there is a remedy for this which is unique to France). Any
ideas about this?
If you have chosen a reliable owner (see 1, above), it won’t happen. However, the way to avoid it is to have the owner (or their representative) meet you at the apartment when you leave. They can return your security deposit at that time (see 2, above) or give you some kind of receipt that says all was in order.
4) Do legit apartment owners have to include (or pay from their own
pocket ) a VAT? If so, what percentage of the rent is this usually?
I don’t know. I thought prices in France were always quoted “tax-in”, but we have never seen any additional taxes added on or any kind of itemized breakdown on a receipt. If the price is €1200 for a week, that’s what we pay.
Anselm
1) How do you avoid getting scammed on these apartments?
A mixture of research and good judgement. Search here on Fodor’s (try http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=35159017 first, or search by the name of the owner or the name of the apartment or a phrase like “apartment rue des Archives”) or TripAdvisor or SlowTravel (www.slowtrav.com) to see if anyone else has rented the place you are interested in. You can also Google the name of the apartment or the owner’s name and see if it produces anything useful. We also get into a fair amount of back and forth communication with the owner, either by e-mail or by phone. It isn’t foolproof, but it gives us an idea of what they are like. And finally, do not hesitate to ask the owner to connect you to previous tenants for references.
2) Even if the apartment is legit, I would very much like to avoid the
prospect of having to convert dollars to euros for the security deposit,
then converting back again. Is this avoidable?
Yes, we have avoided it in every case where an owner has asked for a security deposit. If it is a small amount, we offer to give it to them in euros (cash) on arrival and ask that they return the cash the day we leave. If a large amount, we offer to give them a personal cheque in our currency (which happens to be Canadian) for an amount equivalent to the euros. They hold they cheque uncashed and return it to us on departure or mail it to us when we return. Never had a problem.
3) Then there is the security deposit refund issue - if the owner
is unscrupulous, they can claim damages to the apartment (that of course
is a trick which is used from Texas to Timbuktu, so it is a little hard
to imagine that there is a remedy for this which is unique to France). Any
ideas about this?
If you have chosen a reliable owner (see 1, above), it won’t happen. However, the way to avoid it is to have the owner (or their representative) meet you at the apartment when you leave. They can return your security deposit at that time (see 2, above) or give you some kind of receipt that says all was in order.
4) Do legit apartment owners have to include (or pay from their own
pocket ) a VAT? If so, what percentage of the rent is this usually?
I don’t know. I thought prices in France were always quoted “tax-in”, but we have never seen any additional taxes added on or any kind of itemized breakdown on a receipt. If the price is €1200 for a week, that’s what we pay.
Anselm
Nov 19th, 2008, 06:09 AM
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Not sure what I can add, but there is no magic solution to these issues, just as with any consumer purchase or a rental. YOu have to choose a reputable agency, since you have never done this before, I suggest you not use one you have literally never heard of before and know nothing about (this would be something you just run across on the internet but have read no comments from anyone who has used them). I also would not rent from a private owner on your own, but a lot of people do that and it doesn't seem to bother them (some have had bad experiences) -- that would be places like www.vrbo.com
YOu have to understand that you cannot have every single advantage and no problems and you may need to compromise. For example, the security deposit thing. Well, you are trying to rent an apt. in Paris, so you might need to forget the idea that you can deal only in USD and pay no fees for conversion, that's part of the deal of a foreign country (re the security deposit). Now there are some situations where you can afford that, but it depends on the agency you choose. If you want to avoid it, one way is to use an American agency that accepts payment in USD. Some agencies may not require a security deposit under some conditions, etc.
You have the same problems with security deposit returns as any rental, regardless of where you live, no magic way to avoid that except deal with a reputable agency you know something about. I'm sure if you live in Paris, there is some legal rememedy in such situations, but that won't do you any good.
I have never seen VAT itemized on any private Paris vacation apartment rentals. What is your concern about that, anyway? Whether they do or not, the fee you are quoted would include it so I don't see why you care about that. I think it is 7 pct on furnished rooms or apartments, but don't quote me on that. Just make sure any place you rent that you understand all fees and charges and what can be charged separate, it should be in your contract (eg, some charge separate for electricity).
I stay near that area a lot, and it's a good area to stay where you are looking. I don't know why you'd pay 1000 euro security deposit on a 600-800 euro rental for a week, never heard of any one that high (and I've seen some high ones,but I've never seen one that exceeded the total rent for the period), so it is quite unusual that you see that on all the ones you've found. What websites are you looking at, that sounds very strange. I presume you are not including rent in that security deposit, in which case that's different. Advance deposit of 30 pct is normal, in fact, I think most places would require payment in full at this late date for this Christmas.
YOu have to understand that you cannot have every single advantage and no problems and you may need to compromise. For example, the security deposit thing. Well, you are trying to rent an apt. in Paris, so you might need to forget the idea that you can deal only in USD and pay no fees for conversion, that's part of the deal of a foreign country (re the security deposit). Now there are some situations where you can afford that, but it depends on the agency you choose. If you want to avoid it, one way is to use an American agency that accepts payment in USD. Some agencies may not require a security deposit under some conditions, etc.
You have the same problems with security deposit returns as any rental, regardless of where you live, no magic way to avoid that except deal with a reputable agency you know something about. I'm sure if you live in Paris, there is some legal rememedy in such situations, but that won't do you any good.
I have never seen VAT itemized on any private Paris vacation apartment rentals. What is your concern about that, anyway? Whether they do or not, the fee you are quoted would include it so I don't see why you care about that. I think it is 7 pct on furnished rooms or apartments, but don't quote me on that. Just make sure any place you rent that you understand all fees and charges and what can be charged separate, it should be in your contract (eg, some charge separate for electricity).
I stay near that area a lot, and it's a good area to stay where you are looking. I don't know why you'd pay 1000 euro security deposit on a 600-800 euro rental for a week, never heard of any one that high (and I've seen some high ones,but I've never seen one that exceeded the total rent for the period), so it is quite unusual that you see that on all the ones you've found. What websites are you looking at, that sounds very strange. I presume you are not including rent in that security deposit, in which case that's different. Advance deposit of 30 pct is normal, in fact, I think most places would require payment in full at this late date for this Christmas.
Nov 19th, 2008, 06:21 AM
#5
The two existing rates of VAT in France are 19.6% and 5.5% -- in any case, the VAT is always included in the price so you don't have to worry about it unless you are buying exportable goods and planning to get a partial VAT refund.
Nov 19th, 2008, 06:41 AM
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There's a long thread on this forum about apartments in Paris with many references to rental agencies. There are several good-quality agencies. With an agency you can usually charge the deposit and rental to a credit card. Not only is a credit card more convenient (then getting many euros from assorted ATMs), you can dispute the charge on your credit card if the apartment was not as advertised.
And I second the recommendation of www.slowtrav.com. It has apartment (and villa) reviews including a report on how the agency or owner was to work with.
I've always avoided vrbo.com for just the reasons you mention. But they now offer a money-back guarantee of sorts. And many people use them. But I'd rather avoid the bad experience in the first place. And I'm willing to pay extra to an agency for that.
With a family I'm sure you'll enjoy the apartment experience. Having more space and extra rooms makes for a more enjoyable visit.
And I second the recommendation of www.slowtrav.com. It has apartment (and villa) reviews including a report on how the agency or owner was to work with.
I've always avoided vrbo.com for just the reasons you mention. But they now offer a money-back guarantee of sorts. And many people use them. But I'd rather avoid the bad experience in the first place. And I'm willing to pay extra to an agency for that.
With a family I'm sure you'll enjoy the apartment experience. Having more space and extra rooms makes for a more enjoyable visit.
Nov 19th, 2008, 07:11 AM
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I rented from vacationinparis.com (Apt#122). They're located in New Jersey. I simply wrote them a personal check and mailed it to them from here in L.A. Everything is done in dollars. My deposit was only $300. and the balance of the apartment was due 2 months before the arrival date. I also mailed a personal check to them for the balance. I had the apartment for 7 nights. It's a VERY easy company to deal with. You can read about my experience in my thread, "Guenmai's Paris Aparment Rental Experience". We also have an apartment thread set up here. Happy Travels!
Nov 19th, 2008, 08:40 AM
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There are two additional costs that you may incur - renting sheets & linens, and final cleaning. Make sure you know what those costs are. They may be included in the rental price. Sometimes there is a small charge for gas & electricity above an "average" amount. If your place has 1 bedroom but you are sleeping 4 - then the average might be based on 2 people.
Some places weve rented have been well stocked with kitchen stuff - coffee, olive oil, suger, S&P, dishwasher & laundry detergent, and cleaning supplies. Some have only minimal stuff & we had to buy some if the "staples" in addition to things we wanted (Orange juice, jams, etc). There is always a starting supply of TP & soap - but sometimes only a week's worth.
We've rented around 40 different Gites & apts in France. So far, nobody as scammed us. All the Gites we've rented, (around 36) are from the Gites-de-France organization - which is semi-government sponsored, so the chance of rip-offs is minimal.
Owners & proprietors have always returned the full deposit - minus costs for rental of sheets & linens, cleaning, and electricity/gas. A few (1 or 2) have charged us for telephone usage. We have broken a few glasses & other smll items - but have never been charged for them (we did tell the owners we broke them). Some places noted that we are from the US, and did not charge us the security deposit, or we paid them with a US check in dollars. The first place we rented was the most diffcult because we went through the same things you are going through - although in '97 when we rented it, the Internet was not yet so "robust", so we could not do as much research.
1,000 Euros seems a little high for a security/breakage deposit. Most of the places we've rented were around half of that - or less. One person's contract had a 400E cost if we smoked, & they therefore had to completly clean the drapes & carpets after our stay (we don't smoke).
Unless we're staying someplace for only 3 nights or less - we always rent a gite or apt. All of our friends who travel often, rent apts & gites also - some even for only 3-4 days.
We love the 14th.
Stu Dudley
Some places weve rented have been well stocked with kitchen stuff - coffee, olive oil, suger, S&P, dishwasher & laundry detergent, and cleaning supplies. Some have only minimal stuff & we had to buy some if the "staples" in addition to things we wanted (Orange juice, jams, etc). There is always a starting supply of TP & soap - but sometimes only a week's worth.
We've rented around 40 different Gites & apts in France. So far, nobody as scammed us. All the Gites we've rented, (around 36) are from the Gites-de-France organization - which is semi-government sponsored, so the chance of rip-offs is minimal.
Owners & proprietors have always returned the full deposit - minus costs for rental of sheets & linens, cleaning, and electricity/gas. A few (1 or 2) have charged us for telephone usage. We have broken a few glasses & other smll items - but have never been charged for them (we did tell the owners we broke them). Some places noted that we are from the US, and did not charge us the security deposit, or we paid them with a US check in dollars. The first place we rented was the most diffcult because we went through the same things you are going through - although in '97 when we rented it, the Internet was not yet so "robust", so we could not do as much research.
1,000 Euros seems a little high for a security/breakage deposit. Most of the places we've rented were around half of that - or less. One person's contract had a 400E cost if we smoked, & they therefore had to completly clean the drapes & carpets after our stay (we don't smoke).
Unless we're staying someplace for only 3 nights or less - we always rent a gite or apt. All of our friends who travel often, rent apts & gites also - some even for only 3-4 days.
We love the 14th.
Stu Dudley
Nov 19th, 2008, 09:51 PM
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The Paris Apartment Thread in the Europe forum here has all kinds of information on several agencies. Are you looking for an apartment for Dec. 08? It may be a little late. My personal recommendation is Vacation in Paris. They're based in New Jersey, take credit cards and charge in US dollars. Go to their website: www.vacationinparis.com and send them an e-mail requesting the availability of one of their apts. They will respond the next day with any available apts that meet your req.s
Nov 20th, 2008, 04:45 AM
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I would avoid www.rentapart.com Please note it was NOT a scam (they returned all my deposit ok and no extra charges etc) but I was just a little bit disappointed with the quality of the accomodation.
Nov 20th, 2008, 05:12 AM
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we used vacationinparis.com about 3 years ago and they were great to work with. Easy to contact and ask questions since they are in NJ. I gave them credit card info. for deposit, but they never charged me. Had keys before I left for Paris. The actual owner of the apartment lived in Paris so we had a local contact if we had any problems. We called him one day to see if we could get more towels. Immediate response.
Nov 20th, 2008, 05:19 AM
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I'm not sure of your dates - a week before Christmas - but I would recommend an apartment that falls within your price range. It is in the 3rd rather than the 14th, but is very convenient to the Metro. It rents for 800€ per week, has no security deposit, has a low deposit of 10% which can be paid on Paypal or check without converting dollars to Euros. I looked at the calendar, and it is available until the 23rd. So don't know what your exact dates are.
The apartment is quite large and has twin beds used as sofas in the living room - so very comfortable beds for all. The owners live upstairs and are helpful in every way. The website is http://www.vrbo.com/79965.
Have a wonderful trip!
The apartment is quite large and has twin beds used as sofas in the living room - so very comfortable beds for all. The owners live upstairs and are helpful in every way. The website is http://www.vrbo.com/79965.
Have a wonderful trip!
Nov 21st, 2008, 06:05 PM
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Thanks to everyone for the useful information. I went to the various links which were pointed out. As was remarked, a good bet is to go with a reliable rental agency. For the most part, people have been happy with these - there are always a few horror stories, but I suppose that comes with the territory. People have conflicting opinions about direct rental from owners (such as VRBO); somehow, you have to figure out a way to trust whom you are dealing with, and that of course is true for any serious financial transaction. Anyway, we are following up some leads, and I will post further comments when we we have found our place, and then find out how the arrangements work out.
These forums are great, and a real service to the travel community.
These forums are great, and a real service to the travel community.
Nov 21st, 2008, 09:49 PM
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I have rented directly from owners (mostly) and through agencies many times and (knock wood) have never been burned.
BTW even on vrbo you will come across listings by agents/agencies. The couple times I went through an agency it was because I inquired about a listing on vrbo and received a response of unavailability along with proposed alternates.
BTW even on vrbo you will come across listings by agents/agencies. The couple times I went through an agency it was because I inquired about a listing on vrbo and received a response of unavailability along with proposed alternates.
Nov 22nd, 2008, 06:44 AM
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When I tried to rent an apt. this summer in Paris, I booked a room at Etap, just in case. If the room was ok, then I would call Etap and cancel the room, if not, I had a place to stay. I then could try to find another apt. or just stay at Etap. The room was a bust, no way was my wife staying there. It was filthy. Etap here we come. I was really glad that I had a back-up plan.
Nov 22nd, 2008, 08:18 AM
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My family of four adults stayed in Paris in 2007. I found rentparis.com on the internet. At first I was a little apprehensive about using them, because there didn't seem to be a real person that could be contacted in the U.S. or France. Just a cell phone number to call when we got there. The company is pretty much internet based. We stayed at #26, 13 Rue Rambuteau. We were very pleased with everything and would use this company again without a doubt. We used paypal for the deposit and the rest in cash on arrival. The room was really nice and the location couldn't have been better.
Nov 22nd, 2008, 08:45 AM
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A newer scam is the Apt. that does not exist. If you see photos and descriptions of a beautiful place at a great rate, be very careful. These could be a scam operated from anywhere in the world, Romania, Nigeria, Russia, etc. All the creative crook needs is a computer, photo archive and he/she is in business.
Nov 22nd, 2008, 08:47 AM
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blh,
A specific question about the apartment in the Marais you recommend. It looks very nice on the vrbo website but there is no photo of the bathtub. Was there any type of glass barrier or shower curtain? Thanks.
Scootoir
A specific question about the apartment in the Marais you recommend. It looks very nice on the vrbo website but there is no photo of the bathtub. Was there any type of glass barrier or shower curtain? Thanks.
Scootoir
Nov 22nd, 2008, 03:01 PM
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Scootoir, I am sorry to say I don't remember what type shower door or curtain; however, I'm sure there was some type of barrier as there was no problem with with water spraying the bathroom - and we always take showers. I think it was a glass door as I hate shower curtains.
You could certainly ask the owner if the tub has a door or curtain. I do remember that the bathroom was nice with lots of storage space, etc. The commode is in a separate room next door to the bathroom. This is very common in Europe - sometimes they are not even closeby which seems odd to us.
You could certainly ask the owner if the tub has a door or curtain. I do remember that the bathroom was nice with lots of storage space, etc. The commode is in a separate room next door to the bathroom. This is very common in Europe - sometimes they are not even closeby which seems odd to us.
