Interesting ploy!

My only thought would be that you might need to inform your bank that you intended to withdraw funds from an overseas ATM. My particular local bank could care less, as they don't track such things, but some larger ones might.

BTW, my bank makes no additional charges for foreign ATM withdrawals, other than the 1% that Visa tacks on, so this method might be a real winner for me, if we can ever again afford an European trip. I have yet to stay at Coco's flat in Dijon, so perhaps ----

Dick I'd love to try that system with you if you think it is worth it!

I would love to hear how this works out for anyone who tries it. Have had the same experience with sending money for apartments as Susanna. pp

Brava!

I don't see why it wouldn't work. Real outside-the-box thinking there.

Possible glitch: if you don't have sufficient funds in the account to provide for currency fluctuations, the ATM withdrawal transaction might get rejected, costing you an overdraft fee. Ask me how I know. :">

Of course I would love to try that method for staying at your flat, Corrine! The only problem I see would be that it appears you are getting fully booked, now that folks have found out how nice the place is.

I guess I will just have to book early.

Really interesting idea!

I am currently frustrated because I have to send a deposit TODAY to Rome for an apartment and they only accept two ways: Send them my charge card info (including the security #) or wire it. I'm going to wire it but, because of transaction costs, I'm going to wire it all, which doesn't make me happy, but the apartment is great and a good deal. We need to pay the balance in Euros on arrival. This time it will work out because Rome is our last stop in Italy so we'll have time to gather the money before arriving.

In January we had to provide the balance on our Paris apartment in cash (Euro's, of course) and it was awful! No bank would give us enough at one withdrawel from our debit card (I had gone thinking I could present our charge card at the bank and they'd take it and give cash-WRONG!). We ended up going to the bank three days in a row and leaving that day's cash in the microwave where the owner could come by every day and pick it up. GEESH! Never again.

Most of the time, we were just asked to send a US check for deposit to a US address, then send the balance by US check 30 days prior to departing.

It sounds feasible to me, as long as you understand your bank fees on foreign ATM withdrawals. A lot of people don't, actually, from reading posts on here. Mine now does charge a 3 pct surcharge on ATM withdrawals abroad, and I know some other banks do, also.

Personally, going to all the trouble of opening a new bank account, etc., would not be worth the cost of my time just to rent a vacation apt. and save a wire fee or get some money on arrival at the ATM. YOu plan to close the account, also, which is more trouble and time. I hate dealing with banks, and avoid it whenever possible.

OOPS, in my previous post I said I was going to wire all the money (and also said I was going to pay the balance on arrival-duh) I got confused between a Venice and Rome apartment. Paying all the Venice by one wire.

Sounds likea cunny plan - as the expresion goes.

The method that I have used in the past is to put cash in an envelope and mail it. I was prepared to take the slight risk that it might go missing.

It's a great plan and well worth the effort to try it but I kinda agree with Christina about it not being worth MY time to do it for a rental. Do you have to do this every time you rent an apartment...i.e. opening and closing bank accounts? Even doing it just once a year is IMO, a pain in the a##@, what more if you need to do it twice a year or more??

In any case I sent out wire transfers to Europe 4 times this year alone, and luckily my bank did not charge me at all for outgoing transfer. Two of the wire transfers I have to pay for THEIR bank charge so I have to wire a bit more than the amount required.(I think €12 more, which was not a big deal).

Has anyone used one of those prepaid Visa/MC cards I see on the checkout counter at Walgreen's?

If their fee structure isn't exorbitant, and if they're not rejected by ATMs in Europe, it seems they'd be a good way to implement susanna's plan. Also a good backup to a bank card as a source of travel funds.

Personal to wombat7: I don't think the adjective you applied to "plan" means what you think it does. I suggest you consult a competent dictionary.

Maybe you meant "cunning" or "canny" - but that's not what you wrote.

I too am tired at losing time and money when renting apts in France and Spain.I did convince one owner to use Paypal for at least the deposit.
My frustration is with the owners wanting their balance in cash.Last June I arrived with a large amount of US dollars and then used the American Express office at the airport to change it to euros.Dreadful exchange rate but they rewarded me with a pen! Awful feeling having that amount of cash even though it was only from the airport to the apartment.
From what I have learned,the owners want cash because of taxes! They avoid paying/reporting their profits from the rentals since their banks don't get involved!!!!

Robes - many thanks for pointing out the typo - I did of course mean a "cunning plan" - No need to consult a dictionary - competent or otherwise.

ooops - I did consult the dictionary. I suppose that is one way to increase your vocab!

A staff member at my bank got very upset when she found I had let a trustworthy family member use a bank card when this person was not on the account. Apparently this violates the terms and conditions. So while it would likely work fine to do as you suggest with the new bank account, I'd be leery of complications.

The cheapest method I have found, if credit cards or PayPal cannot be used, is a bank draft. In Vancouver, I can get these for a fee of $5 plus 1% over the interbank rate, here:
http://www.vbce.info/

Thanks everyone for your great comments. I would also be interested to hear from our landlords here on Fodor's and what they think about being paid this way.

Comments on a few responses.

Personally, I wouldn't close the account, I would just change the pin which can be done over the phone very easily. This would be a dedicated account for this kind of thing which I do about twice a year. My bank also does not charge for a withdrawal abroad but it does charge 1% of the transaction.


I think that it would be easy to figure out the amount you would have to transfer to cover the exchange rate and avoid an overdraft. I also would not have overdraft protection on this account.

The Visa card is also a great suggestion, will have to look into that.

I don't think that I could put cash in an envelope and hope it gets there, too risky for me..
Love the microwave solution though.

I'm sure there is something about using the card by someone who's name isn't on it, but who's to tell? This way they get cash, which is what they want, I get a good exchange rate, we would all be happy.

Now, my problem is how to explain this to a French/Italian/Spanish person with limited foreign language skills.

Here's a twist.

Don't close the account each time. Just leave enough in it to keep it open -- $50-$100. That is your loss limit.

Have the landlord leave the card in the apartment or mail it to you if they are an agent.

Change the PIN.

Do it all over for the next rental.

The basic idea works well. When our daughter was a student in Scotland, she and her mother had cards for the same account. We deposited in Boston in dollars, and she withdrew in sterling in Edinburgh.

This is not a direct reply to the alternate payment plan suggestion but I am curious why people are not offended that the landlords demand cash because they want to evade payment of taxes and/or leaving a paper trail and so we become part of their"scheme".All we seem to have is the extra expense and inconvenience of getting the payment to them!
Am I alone in being offended by this way of doing business?

Chapla, I live in France and I take cheques and transfers from French guests and Europeans in general since there are no charges. I pay my taxes and also include visitor taxes in my rates (I know some owners who make you pay for the VT at the end of your stay)

What I don't want is to pay something like 30 euros on a transfer to get the money, and if my guests don't have to pay on their side, I'm happy for them too.
I don't trust Paypal (because of the phishings I receive)and I can't accept credit cards because I'm a private owner. Voilà!

...........yeah,right!

Chapala
The OP clearly states that this arrangement was to save her money. The landlord was prepared to take a wire transfer but that would cost her $35-50.

We rented a house in Provence through VRBO. The owner requested that we wire the money for the down payment. This kind of transaction is very expensive in the USA--40.00 or more. I asked him if his bank would accept a certified check in dollars(the equivalent of the euro amount). He checked it out; his bank OK'd the transaction, and we mailed him a certified check. Hopefully, we will find other landlords who will allow us to make deposits this way.

The original post was regarding service charges for international money transfers, it has nothing to do with paying or avoidig taxes.

Don't attribute larcenous thoughts to Coco or any other poster please.

Wow-word of the day-larcenous.....!!!!!!!Have aglass of wine please,it's only Monday and pay your taxes!

I think it might have been your second post on this thread that was the issue. It is one thing to speculate on whether people are asking for cash to avoid tax, but it is quite another matter to post a disbelieving "yeah,right" in response to a well reasoned post from a very respected Fodorite (hope you don't mind being called a Fodorite Coco!).

No for me to have a glass of wine - the G&T hit the spot quite nicely

oops last piece should have been "not necessary for me"!

Susanna-it's an interesting premise, but I wonder how many landlords would be willing?
Personally, I wish more accepted Paypal.

Coco-if you don't mind, I'm curious as to why you don't trust Paypal? Your comment was almost identical to the one I received from a B&B owner in Grande Bressac. She wanted us to wire a deposit of 50 euros which would have cost me $30! Thankfully she allowed us to send a USD check for deposit which she will give back once we arrive.

I have a paypal account which I've used many times to both make and receive payments via ebay. My understanding is that the phishing is nothing more than Spam which can be ignored. As long as you only log into your Paypal directly (as opposed to any emails you receive) there should be no problem. You would have to pay an extra percentage (about 4%) to be able to accept credit cards however.
If you have a website for your business, you might be able to accept credit cards via a checkout basket as well, depending on the type of site you have and what your site hosting allows.

I know if all things were equal, if I could pay by CC, I would be more likely to rent that place over one where I could not.

For our upcoming trip we have organised Travellers Cash Cards and loaded foreign currency onto them. Why not use those? thereby you are not opening an account as such but just sending a card with the deposit loaded on, then when final payment is required load that amount on for them to draw and you then determine the exchange rate you pay as well. These cards are not linked to any bank account so are safe and can be replaced if lost.
We are in Australia but I assume they are available in the US too.

Interesting concept.
A risk with leaving the account open is that, after the landlord gets his deposit, he abandons or otherwise enables a third party to have it. Said third party would then be able to "hack" the pin number, using software; thus, when the account next had money, he could "re-hack" the pin and take the money intended for landlord #2. You might then be at risk for assuming #2 got the money, and arrive at an apartment leased to someone who paid normally.

I have not heard of Travelers Check Cards, will have to look into that too.

Tomboy: thank you, that is just what I was looking for. Ack mentioned having the landlord give you the card back when you are staying in the apartment after they have taken all the money so I would think that would take care this problem.

Great suggestions, keep them coming!

I too think it is an interesting idea. But what would happen if the ATM 'eats' the card? There would be no way for the landlord to get it back as it would have your name on it.

Tom

Said third party would then be able to "hack" the pin number, using software...

A bank card PIN is not written anywhere on the credit, debit, or ATM card. It is in the bank's computer. When a customer enters it into the keypad on the terminal, it is encrypted and sent to the bank for verification. Hacking it "using software" would be infinitely complicated. Read: impossible.

I designed software systems using IBM's Transaction Processing Facility that underlies most banking networks, so I know whereof I speak.

A word from a house owner:
We accept bank transfers, bank drafts, and PayPal for our houses in France. We don’t accept credit cards, as we, like Coco and many of the people you will be dealing with, are not a business.

Each of these has some difficulty for us.

Bank transfers attract a lot of charges, for the sender and the receiver. Your branch, the main branch, the receiving/correspondent bank here, and our branch, all take their cut. We usually accept our own bank’s charge, and credit people for the original amount we received, which is often less than they sent – not a great way to start a relationship! The highest charge we saw was for 50 Euros, on an Australian transfer – all before the payment reached us.

Theoretically a bank draft/cashier’s cheque in Euros should be better, and it is, if it’s drawn on a French bank. Foreign (i.e. North American) banks normally have a relationship with a correspondent bank in Europe. Although Europe now has a single currency, it does not yet have a central clearing bank. If your bank is connected with a French bank, we pay no extra charges. If however its correspondent bank is in another country we pay over 20 Euros in charges. Not a lot on a large rental, but on a small deposit, of about 200 Euros, a hefty percentage.

Regarding payment by bank cheque in Dollars, we really don't like those, as there is often a charge to clear the cheque PLUS an exchange charge. Although we accept charges that our bank assesses, we don't accept the exchange charge - I know it's not your fault, but it's not mine either, and this county's currently is not the US dollar.

We signed up with PayPal because these approaches seemed to be getting more and more difficult. We actually lost bookings because it was costly and too difficult for some of our customers to find a way of sending us payment. It was the only way I found to accept credit card payment, although it does mean that we pay almost 4% on every credit card transaction. We accept that, but I certainly know people who wouldn’t. We signed up before the latest round of 'phishing' and have had no trouble. As someone else mentioned, as long as you go directly to your account you should be fine. However, I find that some of my French friends are still leery of dealing through the Internet - could be because they are older and more conservative.

I'm still not sure how I feel about the original proposal. It still seems fairly complicated for someone to set this up just to rent an apartment. It shouldn't be more complicated for me as an owner than taking a cheque to the bank, but somehow it does. I think that many French owners would not understand what you are trying to do, and be suspicious. However, it’s certainly an interesting approach.

It is one way to do it, but seems rather a lot of effort for $35.

The person on the European side would not be able to check the bank balance with the card. Not that they need to anyway. Foreign ATM machines know nothing about what anybody has on their account, just whether or not there is enough money (or credit line) for the requested withdrawal.

Robespierre:
"Hacking it "using software" would be infinitely complicated. Read: impossible"
The PIN need not be written on the card. The software could find it.
Said software's available on the internet, going price ~$150. Small price to pay if one is amoral enough to use it. If it's a 4 digit PIN, that's 10,000 combinations, about 1/x of a second for a 2 MHz chip. True, there are counter-measures, but given the skills of a devoted hacker, and the apparent ease of penetration these people often have, I wouldn't leave the account open.

I have sent a personal check to pay for something in Europe. I figured out as close as I could with the exchange rate and made it out in dollars and mailed the check. No problem.

You could always do that and if it was more or less figure it out when you paid the balance.

Said software's available on the internet, going price ~$150.

I doubt if a brute-force attack on the PIN would work very well - systems don't stand around while 10,000 attempts take place.

Would you please post a description of what this $150 software does? TPF systems are bulletproof - if it were actually possible to crack one for that kind of money, ATM crime would be pandemic.

And for a real tool that was useful, $150 is way, way low. I used to see satellite TV hacks that cost in the thousands.

Thanks Carlux, that was very helpful. I'm sorry to hear that you have lost business because of the cost of trying to pay, but, I have to say that I have done that when choosing between two apartments. I have had a business where we accepted CC and had to pay 7% because we were so small, but it was the cost of doing business and we tried to balance the cost with the price. When we accepted CC about 90% of people use cc or debit so we had to increase our prices.

I hadn't thought about the card being eaten...hummm?...although it has never ever happened to me.

I find opening a new account very easy, we have free checking and it should take 10 mins, you would have the atm cards that day or the next.

Traveling to Europe is getting so expensive for us we have to figure out ways to still do it and not break the bank. We now stay put in only one place for the 2-3 weeks. We eat in more often than not. But we still go.

This would save me way more than $35. It would save me that at least twice, the exchange rate would be another big hit, and the finial balance for 2-3 weeks is large and a hassle to get the first day(s) of vacation.

Making it easy for the landlord is the key here isn't it? We would just tell them that we are sending an atm card that they could go to the bank with and withdraw the funds from, then, please keep the card in a safe place for further payments and please return it to me when I am staying at your apartment. I don't think this would be anymore work for them and they would also avoid all the nasty charges. I would have to find someone who is Internet savvy, but, if I have found them searching on line and communicated with them through emails I think this should be a given.

I am going to rent another apartment in Grimaud next summer so I am thinking ahead as she doesn't take cc and doesn't speak English. We didn't rent it this year for these reasons and we wanted to see it and exactly where it was. It was gorgeous and I can't wait to stay there next year. If I can work this out it would probably be equal to two nights stay, which is worth working out.

I wasn't aware of possible bank fees for a bankcheck in euro (which my bank will make out), if it's some bank in another country or something. That is actually kind of expensive also, in the US, at least at my bank -- they do charge only $10 to make out a check in euro, but they have an exchange rate which marks it up 6.5% (I just checked, so I know the fees).

Those travellers check bankcards are very expensive, much more than an ATM card. They are probably the most expensive way to do this. They charge fees to get it, fees to use it, fees to close it out, on top of a bad exchange rate.

I think it is rare than an ATM machine "eats" a card, but is possible. Usually it's if they think there is fraud, or maybe if someone tries to use it unsuccessfully 3 times or more or something (Putting in wrong PIN). Checking a balance would be meaningless, anyway -- any balance in there could be gone in the next hour, that wouldn't prove anything.

I can understand why someone wouldn't trust Paypal, I'm sort of leery of them myself, although I use them. They are a very prime target of various kinds of crooks, from hackers to phishers, I think. I would just want to avoid it, if possible, myself. Besides, doesn't that cost an owner the same as a credit card, or more? There isn't any company that has proven itself that trustworthy regarding privacy and security issues, as far as I'm concerned, with databases.

Setting up a bank account would still involve time at the bank, traveling to/from, etc., even if it goes easily when there. Now some people don't value their time at all, but that alone would be worth more than $35 to me. It would alst mean monitoring statements every month, to make sure it was okay. Also, some banks won't allow you to have an account that just sits there with no activity for a long time for free.

So I think there are many drawbacks to this idea for many people, but if the time and trouble to do that and monitor it, etc., isn't a cost to you in a way that you measure, I do think it is a clever idea. However, I am not sure foreigners who cannot speak English are the ones best suited for this idea, as just explaining the whole thing could be difficult.

Susanna, I love how you're looking for alternatives in this situation and hope you'll keep us posted on how it works out for you.

Regarding giving the owners an ATM card which they return to you: I assume that an ATM card is also a debit card. If they have the card number and the three digit security code on the back, can they then order up things online even though they no longer have the physical card? They'd be taking the chance that the account has no funds, but what if they happen to hit it on the correct date -- when you have planned for a different owner to use that card?

It seems that you'd have to get a replacement card when your business with that owner is finished.

It seems to me that private citizens are totally authorized to deposit travellers' cheques in euros on their private accounts. A certain number of 100€ cheques should cover most needs -- sent by registered mail, of course.

TC's are certainly cheaper to purchase than bank transfer fees.

Ok, some new information .

Trophy: your comment was very disturbing, I hadn't thought about that.

I was at the bank today and asked how one would avoid having another person write down the card # and three didgit pin on the back and then be able to charge on the card at a later date. The way around this is to only have the bank issue an atm card, not a debit card. I really had no idea that there even was a card that you could only use in an atm machine.

The bank also informed me I could have as many free checking accounts as I wanted, which was nice to hear. I have two already so didn't know if there was a limit. I do have a business and do go to the bank once a week , I check on the accounts on line a few times during the week so opening and checking on a new account won't be any problem for me.

Thank you all so much for the great feedback, you brought up some very interesting issues.

Just to show you the kind of message I received from "Paypal" last night:

Dear Customer,

It has come to our attention that your PayPal® account information needs to be updated as part of our continuing commitment to protect your account and to reduce the instance of fraud on our website. If you could please take 5-10 minutes out of your online experience and update your personal records you will not run into any future problems with the online service.

However, failure to update your records will result in account suspension. Please update your records before August 20, 2008.

Once you have updated your account records, your PayPal® account activity will not be interrupted and will continue as normal.

Click here to update your PayPal account information (I do not have any account!)

Moreover I don't want to reflect their commission on my rates. My own charges are increasing all the time already.
I think Susan has a good idea if you book a long time in advance and are sure that the dollar will be weaker at the time of your stay. You pay early and you win on the exchange rate and on the commissions.

When I set up my apartment for rental,(it's in the French Alps) I also set up Paypal accounts so that renters could pay me using that method.Regulars who are verified use echeck, which reduces the fees. Everyone does so except the French,who can easily pay me by bank transfer. Credit card company fees are too expensive for my small turnover, although I have now managed to secure lower merchant fees for Paypal which kicks in during the busy months. Not sure the bank card method suggested would be suitable for me though. My current arrangement is linked to my French bank account, although I live in the UK, so the money would be in the wrong place.

As a rental owner in France I might be open to the ATM idea, but I think many would not be. They would think it is some sort of trick.

It is not such a clear-cut solution because you have to consider you would lose money on each withdrawal because you would be using the bank's exchange rate from dollars to euros. This is always going to be different to the 'real' exchange rate and weighted in the bank's favour.

(Regarding that PayPal email quoted above, this is not from PayPal, it is a scam. If you click on the link in the email it will take you to a site that looks exactly like PayPal and invite you to type in your log-in details. If you get an email from PayPal and think it might be genuine, don't click on a link in the email, always go to PayPal the usual way.)

Welcome on board Chamoissiere and TheLuberon. It is a rush of new members from France !
I know this paypal email is a scam, I just wanted to show it is one of the reasons I don't want to take Paypal.

I'm not sure owners would think it is a trick, they would just have to go to their cashpoint to cash it.

As to Paypal. I have been using it for years. As an online ESL teacher, it was the way I used to accept payment. 3-4% cost is simply a cost of business, which could easily be passed on to the consumer.

Yes, you get the emails every now and then, but I also get them from "real" banks, like BOA and Wachovia. I do not even have an account at Wachovia, so obviously these emails are just sent enmass.

I often try to get foreign small business owners to look into using Paypal, as it would greatly enhance their customer service and reduce customer wariness.

dave

There is absolutely no risk in the Paypal message as long as you don't click on it and give out your personal information. It has nothing to do with Paypal specifically. As mentioned above, I also get these types of emails from legitimate banks. That does not keep me from banking at a multinational bank, so why would it keep me from using Paypal?

I agree the fees for accepting credit cards are part of the cost of doing business. Either roll it into the rental charges, or absorb it. I think the increase in business would make up for it.

If owners don't want to pay the 4%, why not give the renters the option? Pay by wire transfer or by Paypal? If they pay by paypal, it will cost them 4% more. Or is this not legal? Or, you also have the option of not accepting credit cards through Paypal and only accepting checking account transfers, right?

I have a friend who is renting an Italian villa in October. He has to wire the balance of the payment and it's taken over a week to get all the details straightened out with his bank and get the money to the villa owners.

It is not such a clear-cut solution because you have to consider you would lose money on each withdrawal because you would be using the bank's exchange rate from dollars to euros.

I assume you're looking at this from the landlord's perspective. If so, I don't think your view is correct. Let's say the agreed price was €100. I would deposit $200 over here and the landlord would withdraw €100 in Europe. All the fees and foreign exchange markup would come out of my US funds, and not the merchant's European funds. Shopping for the best terms (conversion rate, withdrawal fee, whatever) would be my responsibility. All the merchant knows is that when s/he presses the €100 button, five crisp 20s come out of the slot.

I still think it's a cracking idea.

>I still think it's a cracking idea.<
What does that mean :">?

A great idea.

Merci Carlux I wanted to be sure

I still think it's a cracking idea...I like that!

Rob: you understand perfectly what I am saying and trying to do.

I don't really understand why the landlords would think that I am trying to trick them, like RP said, they would just put the card in the atm and viola, crisp euros, how easy is that?

Ciao coco

I like Robespierre's idea of the prepaid Credit card and mail it over.

""Author: Robespierre
Date: 08/04/2008, 01:33 pm
Has anyone used one of those prepaid Visa/MC cards I see on the checkout counter at Walgreen's?If their fee structure isn't exorbitant, and if they're not rejected by ATMs in Europe, ..."

I'm currently going through this with the apartment I have rented in Paris.

The son-in-law who writes in English wanted me to use IBAN. I have never heard of IBAN. I told him I would wire the deposit to his MIL's bank, and that I need
Bank account and routing number, bank name and address,Mother in Laws name and address.

And then I have to pay in cash on arrival.

I'm going to take a look at one of those pre-paid credit cards and see what their exchange rate is for turning into Euros.

The pre-filled Travellers Check Cards sound good too, although I've never heard of them. I'm wondering if they're triple A, in which case their charges and exchange rates are expensive.

But going to check both out,
first by google

coco -

It means formidable!

adj.

Excellent; great: had a cracking time at the dance.

The greendotonline.com prepaid card charges $5 to start, $5 a month to maintain, and 3% foreign exchange markup. Nothing is mentioned regarding ATM fees (I assume it's covered).

It appears that there may be fees for adding funds to your account, but that these can be avoided.

I am a novice at renting in Europe - I had only done it two times in Italy - and decided that in the future I would prefer to deal with people who take my credit card for a variety of reasons.

I leave in about 6 weeks for a 5 week trip with dd and did just that - only used rental agencies that accepted my cc. I might be paying a little more (did not really seem like it) but it is far easier for me to take care of and I like the "reward/miles" and I like that I have the security of dealing with my Amex or Citi bank if there is an issue.

Actually I just checked out
the pre-paid green card, not such a good deal. Fees every time you turn around.

For ordering cash in Euro to be delivered to your front door with most minimal cost(one time $5.00 +/- charge) seems to be from XE currency converter.

Nevertheless in Euro in relation to the dollar, Americans are still losing 33.33% of dollar buying value when we have to pay in Euro.

http://www.xe.com/cash/?utm_source=internal&utm_medium=180*150&utm_content=GEOUS&utm_campaign=Cash180*150tripUS

Mah: maybe this would be a good time to suggest my idea to the son in law and see if it flies.

Nevertheless in Euro in relation to the dollar, Americans are still losing 33.33% of dollar buying value when we have to pay in Euro.

I disagree. Although prices in the cities sometimes seem outrageous, they really aren't out of line with what we pay in big US cities, when both the exchange rate and the price in local currency are taken int account. The fact that a Euro costs $1.50 is only one of the factors to consider. This is shown clearly on the following chart:

http://www.finfacts.ie/costofliving.htm

As can be seen, Paris is only 109.4% as expensive as NYC - and even London is "only" 125%.

And this chart is using $1.57 = 1€, which is about 7¢ too high as of this week.

Robespierre,

Not talking abut equal hotels in New York City,where I dont live, but just to buying value of dollar in Europe; I can buy an excellent lunch for $12.00 American, entree and salad .(no drinks or wine).

$12.00 American is equal to Euro 7.99.
Tell me what lunch I can buy
for 8 Euro.

I can buy an excellent dinner for less than $20.00 American, entree, salad, dessert,bread.(shrimp Napoleon or mussels) Please tell me what similar dinner I can buy for Euro 13.32 in Paris.

For that matter I can have an entire breakfast, pancakes, eggs, bacon or sausage or ham, plus potatoes and coffee for less than $7.00 American. What breakfast can I get for Euro 4.66 ?

Last time I had mussels, bread and dessert at Leon's of Bruxelles on Rue St. Michel in Paris when the exchange was US $1.32 for 1 Euro, my bill was 28 Euro - now equal to $42.03 American.
One can buy one heck of a dinner AND lunch for $42.00 in the USA. Or for that matter, $42 is breakfast, lunch and dinner in the USA.

Really, we can't say it's equal.

Susanna,

I thought about it, but reasonable apartments anywhere in Paris in late September this year are scarce - so I chicken out

M.

i often send traveler's checks made out to the person....its the easiest

Not talking ab[o]ut equal hotels in New York City...

That is obvious. Once more: the value of one currency for another country's goods and services depends on a combination of the exchange rate and the prices in both countries.

To say that USD will buy 1/3 less than EUR just because that's the ratio of the currency prices is absurd.

Okay Robespierre.

You say Tomatoe (with the long A) and I say Tomato -(with the short AH)
You shall believe what you believe and I shall believe what I believe. I refuse to argue with you dear.

Absurd.

Obtuse and obstreporous.

I probably shouldn't get into this argument, but regarding prices here in France and in the US, I don't see any point in comparing prices 'anywhere' in the US to prices in Paris.

I live in the countryside, where you can still get very good value for much less than in Paris. Then again, we don't have the ambience, real estate values, magic, etc. of Paris.

If you check my recent thread on eating in the Southwest
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threadselect.jsp?screen_name=Carlux&fid=2
you'll find meals at much lower prices than in Paris. In my opinion they also taste much better than most meals in North America, but that's just my opinion.

"Let's say the agreed price was €100. I would deposit $200 over here and the landlord would withdraw €100 in Europe. All the fees and foreign exchange markup would come out of my US funds, and not the merchant's European funds."

That is right, in order to send the real dollar equivalent of say, 100 euros, you have to deposit more, because the bank is going to eat up some by using its own exchange rate. The bank's exchange rate is not the real one. So it may not turn out to be an advantageous way to pay, once you factor in what what you will lose on the transaction.

I do think that rental owners in Europe may shy away from this system simply because it is completely new, and so left-field as to seem like one of those cons where you don't know how it works but it just smells wrong.

I have successfully used the ATM card to give a deposit on a french apartment in St Tropez, it worked beautifully. It took a while to get to this point.

In October I reserved an apartment in Grimaud, a few miles from St Tropez, for high season next year, June-July. We had been there this summer, staying in a different location. I had found this apartment on the net, the owner didn't speak a word of English and I wasn't exactly sure where it was. We visited the apartment and the owner while we were there and loved it and tell her that we definitely want to stay here next summer. She will email me when she has her calender for 2009.

Now the drama begins. She would like a deposit now, and another one closer to the actual date. I propose the ATM card and just like many of you said in the other threads, she thinks that this is way to difficult and she prefers a bank transfer! I tell her I can do that but it is very difficult (don't know why) and expensive for us to do that. She says to just do one transfer then and we can pay the remainder when we arrive, great.

After the new year I attempt to do the wire transfer, with all the hassle and agony that always happens. She sends me the transfer information's, I take them to my bank and start the process. They call me back later that day and tell me that the swift # is only 8 numbers/letters and that they need 12! I write her back and she says that she has given me the correct number and that she gets transfers from all over the world with no problems. I relay this info to my bank, but, NO, they still want 12 numbers/letters! Fine, just cancel it.

I look into Western Union but that is REALLY expensive. OK, I can get a bank draft in euros. I write her back with that proposal, NO, she doesn't like that, it costs too much on her end,which I will pay but now is costing an arm and leg with the fees on both ends. I can tell she is frustrated, I am becoming a big pain, BUT, a three week rental is substantial, I ask her if she is going to cancel me and she assures me that I have the reservation.

At this point I figure I have nothing to loose. I write her another email and tell her I am sending her money for the deposit, I do not tell her it is the ATM card. I have an account at the bank with $25 in it, an ATM only card with no link to a visa credit card.

I send her, via snail mail ,the ATM card, a self addressed envelope with 2euros taped to it for the postage and a note to email me when she receives it. She is irritated to get the card, I can tell. I immediately transfer money into that account, write her back in the most simple french and tell her: take the card to an ATM at the bank, put in the card, put in this code (!@#$) put in an amount (400euro) and VOILA, money....and I tell her I hope it will be very easy for her to do.

The next morning I wake up, check the bank account and see that the correct amount has been withdrawn in two withdrawals. I immediately write her and ask if it worked. She writes back that it worked perfectly and was very easy, she will now send me the card and the receipts back. I can tell by her tone that she is happy. I go back into the account and take out the extra money I had transferred, leaving $25 in it again.

This process has cost me $3...I pay $1.50 a transaction on that ATM card, had I used my credit union it would have been free, she has paid nothing to get the money, a win win for both of us.

In the future I will probably just tell them I am sending the deposit and send them the ATM. It seems to sound difficult in the explanation but in actuality it is quite simple. Maybe if they just get the card and then receive the directions they will be more open to trying it.

I hope that this helps others, it is always such a hassel to send that damn deposit, this was just so so easy, in the end !

It doesn't sound that easy to me, but glad it worked out for you. It sounds to me like it took a lot of time and trouble. But I agree the actual cost is small (which doesn't include your time, which seems considerable to me to open the account, to communicate with the landlord several times, and then to close the account).

I have never done a wire transfer but have had bank checks written in euro which I just mailed to some company in France for payment for things. I don't know why your landlord thought getting a check in euro was expensive for her, I don't get that at all. The people I sent mine to are used to getting checks and depositing them, why would that be a problem for the recipient, can't imagine.

They might have the same problem we do at work (UK) - we can only take cheques drawn on a British bank, with British branch address and sorting code. I'm not involved with the details of payment, so I don't know exactly why - but I know it's something to do with the bank we use. Either they charge fees which are high compared to the amount we usually get overseas payments for, enough to make it not worthwhile, or they won't do it at all.

Christina,

I'll chime in on this method because I think it does NOT involve a lot of time and trouble compared with other methods. Let me describe the hassle I went through a few years ago trying to put down a deposit for a hotel in Croatia.

First, I had to go to the bank to arrange a wire transfer, using the Swift # supplied by the landlord. The deposit wasn't large, perhaps $100. That cost me $35 for the transfer. The hotel wanted the deposit in Euro, so my bank had to convert my dollars to Euros; at a really horrible rate.

When the money arrived in the landlord's bank, the bank leveled an additional charge; for what I have no idea. That meant the hotel did not have the full amount needed for my deposit. A series of back and forth emails followed, with the landlord saying he wanted the full amount, and me saying I was not about to pay an additional $35, plus conversion fees, to send him a few more Euro. He finally agreed that I could pay the difference when I arrived, but the whole thing cost me time, money, and a lot of frustration.

Look at it this way, you would have to go to the bank to arrange the wire transfer anyway. It would probably be easier to open a new account, and get your two ATM cards. You could probably do it on line, or with a phone call.

It used to be much easier for me when I had a bank account in Holland. I could have just sent the guy a Euro check. Sorry I closed that account.

Bottom line is that I think Susanna's method is easy and workable. I'll try it when the need next arises.

You have an excellent suggestion susanna. I don't need it because I have my Dutch bank account but it should work well for many others.

Thanks Nuke, you have gone through the same hassles that I have.

I don't know why it is so difficult and expensive for Americans to send money to Europe.

It was about 5 mins to open the account, I would have to have emails with the landlord no matter which way I gave them money, and, I am not closing the account. I am able to transfer the money out of it on the net and I can also change the code with just a phone call, although it has worked out so well that I probably won't.

Finale to my payment plan: the card and receipts arrived today in the mail!!

Bravo Susan you did it! Now I wonder if I could suggest my future guests to do that in some cases (a long stay booked a long time in advance). Maybe it would be as hard for me to explain it the other way!

Fellow Fodorites, what do you think? Would you like the owner to ask you to open an account especially to pay for a deposit? I wonder...

Beside the 1.5$, was the change good for you, no additional charges? I suppose it must be the same as when you withdraw money yourself from the ATM...

Ciao Coco: The exchange rate was GREAT, the same as if I were there. There was no other charge.

I'd be interested to see what others say about you proposing this the other way. I would think that you would have to offer a bank transfer as an alternative.

Are you still freezing?

I think that once the landlord made it clear that the method can cost nothing in addition to whatever currency markup is charged (which can also be nothing), a prospective tenant would jump at it. I know I would.

It might also be pointed out that the card's owner can change the PIN and use the same account for travel after the lodging deal has been completed. The landlord can use the card as an ice scraper. If you do this, be sure to scratch off the CVV before mailing the card, though.

Hi Suzette Thanks for the advice.

The weather now is the typical average weather for winter, just above 0°c (max 5 or 6°c) but it might freeze again...
Merci Rob!

I have to say, there's one thing which bothers me here. It's the sending of the card to the prosepctive landlord without telling them. I think I would be seriously irritated (as the landlord) if I had not agreed to it first. It's fine if you can get them to agree to the process in advance, but to presume it will be ok, seems somehow not right to me.
And why bother having them send the card back? Just have them cut it up and get a new one.

In terms of the landlord proposing this process, as the tenant, I'm not sure I would want to go through the hassle of opening a special account just for this either. My question back to the landlord would be, why don't you take PayPal (as discussed above)? Honestly, as the renter, I want this to be as easy as possible for me and that means either a credit card or Paypal deposit. If not, I'll find another place. That goes for hotels too. I'm trying to book a small hotel in Vietnam and they want a deposit. The options are wire transfer, bank draft, or emailing or calling with credit card info. I will call them via Skpye and give them the credit card info.

I would explain that as a mom'n'pop B'n'B, I don't want to shell out any overhead I can avoid. That means PayPal, wire transfer, and credit/debit card are out. Each one eats 3-5% of my revenue, and I'd consider passing up the deal if the tenant doesn't want to play by my rules.

Besides, everyone should have a special travel account to prevent one's main account from being wiped out, n'est-ce pas? I'd push that concept, plus the idea that they can avoid currency markup when using the card - if they shop card issuers rigorously.

K: I agree that it was very presumptuous of me to not tell her what I was sending. I said that I was sending her money via snail mail. In my mind an ATM card is money. When she received it and saw it was the card she was annoyed but after she sucessfully got the deposit she was so much happier. I felt that if I mentioned the card again she would say "NO" and then what would I do? It was a last ditch effort and it worked. In the future I will do the same thing and hope for the same outcome.

In the past I have always found a company or person that would take a credit card or paypal, but this has limited me as to which places that I can stay. I saw this apartment last summer and absolutely fell in love with it and the property and I really wanted to stay there. I was becoming a pain and I didn't want her to stop communicating with me and get someone else.

I felt that she would also be more comfortable sending the card back as opposed to keeping it safe until I get there in 4 months or cutting it up and throwing it away, any of these ideas would have worked for me. I was just trying to make it as easy as possible.

Thank you susanna for reporting back. That was fantastic! I will definitely try your method especially when I need to make a large deposit. Don't you just love Grimaud??!! We go to that area almost every summer and we will be there again this summer. Have a nice time there!!

Joy: when will you be there? I'll be there june 20-july11. Yes, I love the area. Last year we stayed in Port Grimaud, which was pleasant but I love the real towns better. This apartment is on the road to Grimaud about 2k away. Where do you stay, do you need the link to this apartment, but you can't go when I'm there! We have good friends that live part time in Font Maurier (sp)so this is a perfect spot for us.

Hi again susanna!!

We will be in France from June 10 for about 4.5 weeks, (husband ~3 weeks, teen son & me stays on) but in the middle DH & I will make a side trip to Portugal. In the past we have stayed in a wonderful B&B in Grimaud, and an apartment in La Croix Valmer and a gite in Cogolin. This time we are staying a bit north around Brignoles and Gorges du Verdon areas but we will be making a few trips down the coast in that area. Hmmmm...not sure but I believe Font Mourier is near St Tropez?? Then your apartment location is perfect. Yes, do give me the link and if you prefer just email it to me at ntfinder at aol dot com.

Have a stupendous time!

Joy

This thread is fascinating... I hope I've understood properly... I am in the process of renting an apt in Paris for the 1st time, and the owner wants the deposit through Paypal, which is fine except for that (4 percent?) fee for her, and then the remainder when we arrive. I was worrying about how to get or carry the remainder of the rental fee (over a month's worth) when only so much per day can be withdrawn from my debit acc't, and... doesn't Susanna's idea solve this problem too? My husband will be home in CA while I'm traveling with my daughter. Couldn't I just email him to put money in the ATM acc't and withdraw it using the ATM card, without all those pesky fees?
Also, does anyone have specifics on which banks might have a branch in Paris?

HI Sparsam7: I'm glad to hear that you like my idea but if you are going to be there with an atm card can't you just put the money in the account before you leave instead of involving you husband? Although there is a limit on my account in the US my landlord was able to pull 800euros in one day, doing the withdrawl back to back 400 euros. If you didn't want to pay the extra 4% on paypay you could also propose sending her the atm card for your deposit...have I answered you question, I'm not quite sure.

I had a problem with a B & B near Rouen. I went to a grocery store nearby but couldn't justify spending $20 to wire $50.00. After phone calls and emails the owner finally decided to trust me. She was such a kind person and a lovely hostess when we finally made it to France.

I wonder if a person intended to visit Europe fairly often, would it be better to open a bank account in a country in the European Union while over there? I don't know how difficult it would be to make deposits? The other advantage might be that the cc would work at places that US cc's don't.

I think the prepaid cc might be the best bet.

Susanna,
Yes, you're right; I don't know what I was thinking. I do like the idea of a special travel account... I need to review this thread again, though, before I post!!!