tjhome1

Hi, I was wondering if people had views on whether it was best to start off a 21 night first time trip in Kyoto or Tokyo. Fares and times from Manchester look to be little different for each place and it would mean finishing up in the other city. I'd originally assumed Tokyo but we plan to arrive 30 October and if we start in Tokyo we'd be in Kyoto mid November and I'm concerned it will be at the height of the koyo and there will just be so many other tourists there and fall colours aren't that high on our list of priorities. It would be great to hear opinions.
Thanks,
Tim

shelleyk

Three years ago I did a 3 week trip during the same time frame as you mention. We started in Tokyo and ended in Kyoto. Kyoto was busy , but not so crowded that we did not enjoy our time there, and I am one who does not like crowds. Also, coming from New England with beautiful fall foliage right out my door, I did not think that the foliage in Kyoto and Matsumoto would be a highlight of our trip, but they were. All I can say is that the colors are unlike what we have in New England and are spectacular. If you go to Kyoto in Nov. you should be prepared to book your hotel 9 months ahead of time. If you want to read about our trip to Japan, click on my name.

tjhome1

Shelley, thanks for your helpful insight on the crowds in Kyoto. I'd read your TR before and it was one of the influences in including Matsumoto in our schedule.

Kathie

You may think that the fall colors aren't high on your list, but you haven't seen the koyo in Kyoto yet! We went to Japan the same year as Shelley and met up briefly in both Tokyo and Kyoto. While there will certainly be plenty of other people in Kyoto, it won't keep you from enjoying the gorgeous gardens. We got to the first stop of the day as it opened, which meant it was not as crowded.

Kavey

If koyo weren't a factor, I'd say to start in Tokyo and end in Kyoto. Tokyo is a shock to the senses but also a wonderful place for one's first experience of Japan in all it's modern glory, but with plenty of traditional and cultural elements too. And Kyoto, well Kyoto is just magical and hard to top, so a great place to end.

janisj

I was just in Kyoto Nov 19-22 and there wasn't a speck of color. Apparently the Fall weather has been too warm and nothing had turned yet. In all the places/gardens/temples I visited there was one (yes - one) maple tree that had turned. That poor little tree about 500 people were mobbed around it taking its picture.

So don't assume the colors will be terrific. Just like New England it will depend on mother nature.

But - even w/ no color at all the city was absolutely packed. Except for the Imperial Palace Gardens -- every other place I went was a mob scene. Some like the nishiki market and the Inari Shrine you actually could barely walk. It was shoulder to shoulder inching along.

Kathie

Wow, Janis. We were there just a couple of years ago at the height of the koyo and none of the places we visited were as crowded as you describe! A good reminder not to generalize from personal experience.

kja

IMO, there are no right or wrong answers here, just some things to consider. Weather and koyo have already been mentioned, but also -- would you prefer to end in a REALLY busy city (Tokyo) or start there? Do you prefer to put your highest priorities first or last? Are there cultural events or performances that you want to see? Does your choice affect any of the rest of your routing, including your choice of airports for arrival or departure? Will your energy level vary over the course of your trip in a way that might influence your experiences?

Good luck!

rachill_az

We visited Japan for the first time this November, and enjoyed beginning our trip in the face paced Tokyo and ending our trip in Kyoto where we felt more relaxed. I think we would have not appreciated the temples and gardens in Tokyo as much if we had started in Kyoto, as Kavey put it - Kyoto is hard to top.

I'm surprised that janisj saw no autumn colors. We were in Kyoto from November 11th - 15th and we thought the colors were beautiful especially around Arashiyama. It was crowded, but it didn't stop us from having the most wonderful time!

janisj

That's curious -- There were some yellows but no vibrant reds or oranges anywhere that I saw. I live in northern California where we don't get much in the way of Fall foliage colors, and I noted that driving home from the airport I saw more brilliant/vibrant colors and just much more variety of colors than I saw anywhere in Kyoto.

And tonight I was going through/editing my photos . . . and my memory is right. No color to speak of at all. Nothing at all like the photos I've seen in all the guide books and post cards.

rachill_az

I've recently added photos to my blog from our time in Kyoto - http://livelifeoutofoffice.com/?p=1699 While there was still a lot of green in some areas, we were very happy with the vibrant pops of reds, yellows and oranges. But we are from the Arizona desert, so I guess any color wowed us!

janisj

Wow - your photos of Inari could not be more different than mine

You are the only people in the pictures -- I got there mid-morning and those shops that were just opening up when you arrived were totally swamped, the washing station you had to wait a long time to rinse your hands, and in the tori gates themselves there were unbelievable crowds.

Maybe it was because it was a holiday weekend -- the Monday was Labor Thanksgiving Day and the station, the metro, the buses, all the temples, markets etc were absolutely mobbed.

kja

@ tjhome1 -- one other consideration I forgot to mention above: Must you start in either Kyoto or Tokyo? Doing so might, indeed, make most sense, but it might be worth keeping in mind that you don't have to start in the city into which you fly....

tjhome1

Thanks for all the helpful comments. What I'm taking out of this is that timing of koyo is unpredictable so it shouldn't influence my decision and that it is probably better to start in Tokyo. The reason we start and end in either is that it seemed to make sense with regard to lessening the time needed on a Rail Pass. However I think I shall just post both schedules. The first, starting in Tokyo, I did over a year ago, before a new hip set our trip back by a year. The most recent one I did just this week after much reading and it had Kyoto at the start and seemed to flow better but that might just be because I've read more. I shall give more attention to recrafting my first schedule.

MinnBeef

I completely agree with shelleyk and Kathie. I'm from Minneapolis and also thought that the fall colors in Japan would be similar to those here. WRONG! They were soooo much more stunning (and they're pretty dang good here most years!) Plus you'll be seeing many of those colors in temple gardens. I promise you the koyo will take your breath away. I would recommend starting in Tokyo. IMHO, there is much less to see in Tokyo than in Kyoto. You'll probably be jet lagged for the first day or two and for me, I would rather that be in Tokyo for the reasons mentioned.

russ_in_LA

For what it's worth, I agree with starting in Tokyo. We started there for both our trips. I found that while getting over jet lag I didn't mind spending a couple hours each afternoon in the hotel in Tokyo. In Kyoto, I just wanted to go, go, go, in order to fit everything in, as there is just so much to see.

tjhome1

Thanks both - Tokyo it is.

kja

I didn't start in either Kyoto or Tokyo: For my 3 weeks in Japan, which were in the month of May, I flew into Kansai, but left immediately for points elsewhere (Kurashiki, to be exact, followed by Hiroshima and Miyajima, and then Koya-san). I ended in Tokyo -- where I didn't mind missing things if I was tired and where I could benefit from having been in Japan already for 2.5 weeks, so I was a bit acclimated before entering this very busy, very dynamic city in which it is all-too-easy to get lost.

But then I also planned my 3 weeks around some dates that weren't in my control -- a festival in Kyoto that is held on only one day a year, an odori in Kyoto, ukai (available in only one occasion when I was there), takigi-noh, etc. -- not to mention options to see kabuki in Tokyo, the expected blooming of iris, my ability to secure reservations at Shojoshin-in and an affordable ryokan on Miyajima, etc.

I can see the logic of recovering from jet lag in Tokyo -- but that wouldn't have worked well for me, as I wanted to take advantage of my exceedingly rare jet-lag-induced early morning awakenings (I am NOT a morning person!) on Miyajima and Koya-san. And I can easily see the logic of saving best for last, and Tokyo was not my favorite city (nor did I expect it to be), but for MY purposes, the order in which I visited places worked very well. Too, by the time I saw Nikko (just before Tokyo), I could appreciate how unusual it is.

To each his / her own! As I said above, I don't think there's a right or wrong answer on this one. I am writing in part for future readers whose interests and concerns might be more like mine.

mjs

November 19-22 this year was Thursday-Sunday which explains the crowds.

tjhome1

kja - thanks for the interesting different perspective - whether to be acclimatised or whether to be shocked by the new as kavey put it.