Roccco

Am I out of my mind to consider the following itenerary:

2/10 - Depart LAX @ 8:45AM

2/11 - Arrive London @ 3:15PM. 6.5 Hour Stopover. Perhaps a late lunch somewhere in London. 9:40PM Depart London - Dubai.

2/12 - Arrive Dubai, UAE, @ 8:30AM. Transfer to Burj Al Arab Hotel. 2 nights in Deluxe Suite (nice way of saying standard room and still more than double the price of most every 5* hotel).

2/13 - Dubai.

2/14 - Full Day At Leisure In Dubai. Depart Dubai @ 10PM.

2/15 - Arrive Delhi, India. @ 2:30AM. Met by personal guide and luxury car that will remain with my wife and I for the duration of our time in India. Transfer to Agra (approximately 3 hour drive). 2 nights at Amar Vilas in Luxury Suite w/ Taj Mahal view.

2/16 - Agra.

2/17 - Transfer to Jaipur (approximately 4 hour drive). 3 nights at Raj Vilas in Luxury Tented Room.

2/18 - Jaipur.

2/19 - Jaipur.

2/20 - Transfer to Ranthambhore (An Indian National Park featuring Tigers and other wildlife, apprxomiate 4 hour drive from Jaipur). 3 nights at Vanya Vilas in Luxury Tented Room.

2/21 - Ranthambhore. AM & PM Game Drive.

2/22 - Ranthambhore. AM & PM Game Drive.

2/23 - Transfer to Delhi. Approximately 5 hour drive. 4 nights at Imperial Hotel in Heritage Suite.

2/24 - Delhi.

2/25 - Delhi.

2/26 - Delhi.

2/27 - Depart Delhi @ 3:45AM. Arrive Dubai @ 5:55AM. Depart Dubai @ 10AM. Arrive London @ 2:10PM. Depart London @ 3:00PM. Arrive LAX @ 6PM.

Fortunately, I would arrive home on a Friday and would be able to sleep for two days after this whirlwind tour. I know it is a lot of hopping around but it is really not that bad when you consider that despite that nasty looking set of return flights home, it is still under 29 hours, or less than the time it usually takes me to get home from Southern Africa.

A breakdown:

Duabi (2 nts, 3 days) - Burj Al Arab
Agra (2nts) - Amar Vilas
Jaipur (3 nts) - Raj Vilas
Ranthambhore (3 nts) - Vanya Vilas
Delhi (3.5 nights) - Imperial Hotel.

All that plus I should have the chance to spend about 3.5 hours in London to stretch my feet between flights.

I would add another day if I could get the flights to work any better for me, but the way it is set up, the flights are under $1,500 per person, believe it or not.

It may make sense to spend four nights in Jaipur and only 2.5 nights (3:45AM departure on final night) in Delhi. It may give me a sense that I actually rested someplace along the way.

I don't expect to have another chance to visit Dubai, at least not until I devote a three week trip to exploring Iran and Jordan a few years from now.

Is this a desirable trip or do I need to renew my meds and seek therapy???

Thanks.

Roccco

On 2/10, I would actually depart @ 8:45 PM (not AM) with a direct flight to London.

Clematis

I couldn't do this itinerary myself. Of course I prefer to break up trips - I typically break up a trip to London by having a 1 or 2 night stopover in NYC, for example, from LAX. So I couldn't take this much flying (lax-london-dubai). I have never been to Dubai. I recall only needing 1-2 nights Jaipur though (I was sick in Jaipur so didn't see much). What you may not be taking into account is how tiring travel is in India. A 4-hour car ride will be on much bumpier roads than elsewhere, for example. It will be fascinating for you, but just don't expect nice rest stops, etc. Also, while you may come home healthy, as you've undoubtedly read in our other thread about eating in India, one or both of you may come down with something so you may not be ready to hop back to work in 2 days. Just some thoughts to consider when planning. BTW, I like having Agra close to the start of your India trip (as you have here) as there's not much to do except see the Taj (and one other building), so it's a good place to relax and get over jet lag. I wouldn't push the itinerary around to fit 2/14 there, as any place on your itinerary can be special and the main thing is to make it work for you so the two of you can enjoy your trip.

gard

Hi

Sounds like quite a hectic plan Well, you do have something to look forward to when it comes to Dubai...I couldn't afford staying at Burj Al Arab but I went out there to have a short tour of the hotel and it looks great. But do take the bus into the Dubai city itself to look around...my wife and I had a pretty good time on vacation there last March. I have posted a trip report and some pictures on my homepage www.gardkarlsen.com by the way if you need any information.

Hope you'll have a great trip

Regards
Gard
Stavanger, Norway

sandi

Roccco -

Sick??? No Way! Just very creative.
I can't comment on the India part of your trip, but have a request - can I come along for the 3-days at the Burj? Please, pretty please!
Expensive, wow, yes! Hey, we only pass this way once.
Considered the only (so far) 7* hotel.
You must do a report on the hotel that stands alone.
And oh what great shopping for STD!
Which airline/s are you using for your this adventure?
Best, Sandi

Roccco

Sandi,

Thanks for the vote of confidence. After that dose of affirmation, I am ready to book my air that would allow for the following trip:

Dubai - 3 nights at Burj Al Arab
Agra - 2 nights at Amar Vilas
Jaipur - 4 nights at Raj Vilas
Ranthambhore - 3 nights at Vanya Vilas
Delhi - 4 nights at Imperial Hotel (3:30AM departure on the last night)

This is actually a couple nights longer than previously proposed but I was able to find the air for under $1,500 per person.

Really, I was not expecting an exclusive Africa priced trip but, then again, I was not expecting to find the incredible places (and a stopover at the Burj Al Arab) that have surfaced on this trip.

I am going to try to put this to bed and book this TODAY!!!

Cicerone

Rocco you are all over the map here! I'm getting jet lag just reading your posts.. . .

I did some searching, and I think you are best going on Singapore Airlines via one stop in Singapore on the outbound and inbound flights. The flight times are good, only a 4 hour layover in Singapore on the way out, and you arrive in Delhi at the civilized hour of 7:30 pm. On the way back, there is only a 2 hour layover in Singapore and you arrive in LA at 11 am. They are quoting $1500 for this flight in coach and $4,400 for business class. If you take the hotel and meals money from Dubai (at least $1700 a piece) that goes a long way toward the business class price and on Singapore Air that is a great way to fly. . .although their coach is probably the best in the world as well. . .

As for Dubai, I guess I am mostly confused about your wanting to take this flight because it is the best price, and then being willing to pay $900 plus tax a night for Dubai. With the money you would save by not going through Dubai (close to $3000 on hotel plus meals and touring) why don't you just take as direct a flight you can from LA to Delhi?

In addition, Gard's comments notwithstanding, Dubai IMO is one of the most boring places in the world. You will be climbing the walls with 3 full days there, and sacrificing time in India which is so much more interesting. Shopping is virtually the only activity and you will not find it a bargain, as the electronics and other stuff on offer will be the same price or even more expensive than you can find in the US. It is a shoppers paradise for people in the Middle East, Asia and Europe, where consumer goods are more expensive. There is very little of Arab culture there; and it certainly is no Petra or even other parts of Jordan. As for the Burj Al Arab, while stunning from the outside, there are many who question its service standards. It bills itself as a 7 star, but there is no such standard in the industry or under the Dubai tourism authority. Personally, I think you will find the décor in somewhat bad taste, way too much marble, gold plating and crystal chandeliers for my taste, and it smelled like mould in some of the public areas?I get the feeling you want to stay there because you think there is same cachet to it, which you will find is not the case. Go to the Villa D'este in Italy if you want to pay top price and really get cachet. Better yet, get a suite at the Peninsula Hotel in Hong Kong and really see style at work.

If you don't want to go Singapore Airlines, then going through Hong Kong makes more sense than Dubai IMO. You can go non-stop via Cathay Pacific from LA and then non-stop on to Delhi. Cathay's website is quoting $1,400 round trip for LAX-Delhi. It may cost slightly more to spend a few days in Hong Kong rather than going straight to Delhi. I would ask your doctor about the advisability of running a marathon after a 14 hour flight and with a 15 hour time difference from LA. Probably not a good idea. You might do it on the way back.

I see you have added Sariska National Park to your itinerary. I have not been there. I am curious about transportation there and then on to Ranthambore; it may be long. Alwar (where Sariska is located) is north east of Jaipur. Ranthambore is south east of Jaipur. There are not a lot of highways in India, I believe that the only road available between Alwar/Sariska and Ranthambore will be via Jaipur. In that case, I would go to Jaipur for 2 days after Sariska, rather than trying to go right to Ranthambore which I am guessing would be a 9 hour drive at least. The road from Jaipur to Ranthambore is good, but I don't know anything about the road from Always to Jaipur. You may want to rest a bit between safaris. Then go to Ranthambore, back to Jaipur for 1 night and on to Delhi fro your last 3 days.

I don't know anything about the Sariska Palace; but it will not be in the same class as the Oberois/Vilas. Heritage Hotels are very uneven IMO, as many are state-run. The fact that the rooms have their original art deco furnishing could very well mean that they are 100 years old and have not been cleaned. . . . The star rating in India, as in many places other than maybe France, means very little.

On your other thread, you have yourself in Agra on two separate occasions, on February 12 -14 and then again on February 17 -18 after Sariska and Ranthambore.

You are trying to do a LOT in India in 12 days. Personally think you are trying to do too much.

Your return flight looks like you have less than an hour to make a connection in London. Are you sure you can be ticketed with this little time? Most airlines have rules about minimum connection times.

Clematis

Rocco, Cicerone makes a *lot* of sense. Also a good point about running a marathon after the long flights. I hope you got a chance to read C's post.

Roccco

Clematis,

Yes, Cicerone really knows Asia and I respect his opinion greatly.

I did run my last Marathon, the Vina Del Mar Marathon in Chile last December, after a 13+ hour flight and two hour transfer to Vina Del Mar, the very next morning after I arrived. Despite poor training, I did pretty well, finishing in the top 120 runners or so. This out of a field of about 123 runners!

I am very confused about what I should do with this trip. After hearing what I have about Bali, I am now leaning back towards Hong Kong and running/walking/crawling the Hong Kong Marathon on February 15th. Three nights at the Peninsula Hotel would serve me well. I couldn't come close to affording that hotel last time I was in Hong Kong in 2001, so that would be nice. I don't think my wife would mind spending Valentine's Day at The Peninsula Hong Kong.

I figure that if I don't go to Udaipur, that I will need a maximum of 12 nights in India. Delhi (3.5 to 4, depending on flight times), Agra (2), Ranthambhore (3) and Jaipur (3).

Roccco

Correction: I meant to say after hearing what I have about DUBAI.

Cicerone

Rocco, you are breaking my heart here! What a choice: India or Hong Kong! I lived in Hong Kong for 5 years so don't even get me started on what a great city it is. . .

OK, February is a very good month weatherwise in Hong Kong because it is "winter" and it is not hot and humid like the other 9 months of the year. Average temps will be around 70F. It can actually get coldish (low 50s) so be prepared.

As for the marathon, remember that Chile has no time difference with LA (or one hour tops), but Hong Kong has a 16 hour difference in February, so you will be running in the middle of your night, unless you have arrived at least 3 days before and made an effort to adjust your clock. Do check with your doctor no kidding, as the humidity will definitely be higher than LA and the temps could be lower.

But also don't forget that February in India is one of the best months also and that Rajasthan is incredibly romantic IMO (and in the original sense of the word in that there is beauty in everything). . .

One thing about Bali in February, it is pretty much the middle of the rainy season. While they don't get monsoons like other parts of Asia, they can have pretty steady downpours. December, January and February are generally the 3 rainiest months of the year. That being said I have been in Bali in February and had good weather except for maybe two days of rain, but anecdotes aren't statistics which are pretty clear.

If you want a beach in Asia in February, you are better off in the Phuket/Krabi area on the east coast of Thailand or the Hua Hin/Koh Samui area on the west coast. Very low rainfall, very good time of year to visit. The east coast of Malaysia is also gorgeous and you could do Hong Kong, Singapore, and a drive up the coast and/or a trip to Rawa Island (see my numerous posts on what is IMO the most beautiful beach in Asia and possibly the world).

As you have been to China and Hong Kong, all in all, if I were you I would go to India. However you might do a layover in Hong Kong (and run the marathon if you really must) or Singapore and then head to India, or do one of them on the way back to recover a bit.

Finally, I guess I should disclose that I am a WOMAN! I hope this does not affect your respect for my opinion. . . .

Roccco

Cicerone,

I have been outed for the sexist that I am!

Hong Kong would just be a three nighter before India but would in no way alter my India trip, other than going to Udaipur.

I have priced it out and I can fly on Cathay Pacific to Delhi with a three night stopover in Hong Kong for about $1,750 per person. While that is more than I would like to pay, the benefit is that it is a direct flight to Hong
Kong from Los Angeles and then a direct flight to Delhi from Hong Kong.

I was in Hong Kong in early April, 2001 and the weather seemed nice enough and it should only be cooler in mid-February for the marathon. The Peninsula Hong Kong for $375 USD per night for a deluxe harbor view room seems like a slightly better deal than the Burj Al Arab for $900 per night.

jason888

Chinese New Year is February 22, 2004.

What a great time to be in Hong Kong!

Clematis

Okay, it sounds like a plan. Trade Dubai for Hong Kong and you get to run your marathon. Since you know you can handle that, then that's a good choice. You won't be there for the Chinese New Year per se, which could be a good thing if you're not crazy about on-the-ground firecrackers and gunfire.

Roccco

I was in Paris for Bastille Day one year and although it was a festive time, as Clematis mentioned about Hong Kong New Year, I was not too crazy about firecrackers and cherry bombs being thrown around my person, and this is when I was 18 years old! I doubt that 14 years later that I would appreciate it any more than I did then.

Last time I was in Hong Kong it was at the end of a 15 night trip to China and by then I was a little beat up and could not appreciate Hong Kong fully. Plus, last time I was at the 3* Majestic Hotel, which is not so majestic, as part of a Pacific Delight Tour.

I do think that I prefer arriving in India after three nights in Hong Kong, especially due to the fact that I will likely be arriving in Delhi after 2AM and will have a 2.5 hour? transfer to Agra after only a short flight from Delhi instead of 20-25 hours of flying from Los Angeles. I may even make it to Agra for sunrise.

I think my itenerary is now, as follows:

2/11 - Depart LAX @ 11:55AM aboard Cathay Pacific flight to Hong Kong.

2/12 - En Route (15 hour direct flight)

2/13 - Arrive Hong Kong @ 7:40AM. 3 nights at Peninsula Hong Kong.

2/14 - Hong Kong. Maybe a romantic (carbo-loading premarathon) Valentine's Day dinner at Fat Angelo's, a nice Italian restaurant that we enjoyed last time that looks perfect for a mob movie.

2/15 - Hong Kong Marathon. Running through the tunnel connecting Hong Kong Island to the mainland should be interesting.

2/16 - All the spa treatments I can handle and some last minute shopping. 10PM departure to Delhi aboard Cathay Pacific direct flight.

2/17 - Arrive Delhi at 2;30AM. Met at airport by luxury car and driver. Transfer to Agra for possible sunrise at Taj Mahal? 2 nights at Amar Vilas.

2/18 - Agra.

2/19 - Transfer to Jaipur. 3 nights at Raj Vilas.

2/20 - Jaipur.

2/21 - Jaipur.

2/22 - Transfer to Ranthambhore. 3 nights at Vanya Vilas.

2/23 - AM and PM Game Drives.

2/24 - AM and PM Game Drives.

2/25 - Transfer to Delhi. 3 nights at Imperial Hotel. I could potentially stay four nights but I think I would rather arrive home on a Saturday afternoon than a Sunday afternoon. As it is, it'll take my dogs a few days of being mad at me for abandoning them, before they come around!

2/26 - Delhi.

2/27 - Delhi.

2/28 - Depart Delhi @ 7:30AM. 5 Hour Flight. Arrive Hong Kong @ 3:05PM. Depart HK at 4:20PM (Is 1 Hr 15 Minutes enough time to connect--all flights are with Cathay Pacific and should be in the same terminal). Arrive LAX @ 12:45PM, Saturday afternoon (the same day) (neat trick, huh?, going back in time 3.5 hours).

I think this is the best itenerary yet. Too bad Cathay Pacific is about 35% higher than some of the other airlines to Hong Kong. In the end, I think I am better off paying the extra $200 per person to avoid connections, since CP is the only airline I found that flies direct from LAX-HK and HK-DEL.

Surprisingly, the five hour flight from HK-DEL is MORE expensive than the 15 hour flight from LAX-HK. Any ideas on finding a cheaper fare to DEL from Hong Kong???

Roccco

2/11 itenerary is actually 11:55 PM (not AM) departure from LAX (as if I still have an audience).

sandi

Roccco -

This revised itinerary with input from "cicerone" seems much better than your original.

However, something to think about for a future trip and if you might still have a desire to see Dubai and stay at the Burj - alot of itineraries that go to Egypt and Jordan, can do an add-on to Dubai (it's a shopping haven mostly for Middle Easterners and Europeans - though we get much better prices and have more competition here in the States).

The add-ons are usually 2nt/3dy - so put this info into "future travel ideas" file. Every once in a while we have to do something "sick" or ridiculous and the Burj might be it - but, hey, why not?

How are you doing with your Marathon training for NY?

Cicerone

Hey Rocco, looking pretty good so far?a few observations:

1. 1.5 hours should be enough time to make your Cathay connection. As you have been to HK airport before, you know how huge it is. All the Cathay flights should theoretically come into and go out of the same gate area, but you never know. I don't think Cathay would ticket you if they felt the connection time was not enough. Also, if it looks like you will be taking off from Dellhi late, let the flight attendants know as you are boarding that you have a close Cathay connection and they can at least radio ahead if necessary.

2. I think it is your layover in Hong Kong that is adding to the cost of the Cathay flight, because if you did it without the layover Cathay's website is quoting $1,400 round trip for LAX-Delhi. With the layover I think you said the price was $1,700. You might want to call Cathay and see if you can get them to give you a better price for the layover. Or try a travel agent or consolidator. You might be able to go more cheaply by going Indian Air from Hong Kong; although on Expedia their prices are very similar to Cathay's.

3. You might try using a local travel agent in Hong Kong. Get a copy of The South China Morning Post and look at the ads from travel agents in the travel section. This is the main English-language paper for Hong Kong. You should be able to buy a copy in LA, or your local library may be able to let you look at one. (You can try their website at scmp.com, but I took a quick look and couldn't figure out how to use it without subscribing. You might consider a brief subscription if you can't get a copy in LA.) There should be ads for Hong Kong-Delhi flights, otherwise contact the travel agents who advertise by e-mail or phone/fax and ask for quotes. (I would set up a hotmail address for this, otherwise your real e-mail address may get on all sorts of mailing list.) See what prices they can get. I don't know if I would buy from them on-line or by fax, maybe wait until you get to Hong Kong. You might run a search here to ask if people have experience with particular agents. You could certainly ask if they would hold a reservation and you would pay them when you get to Hong Kong. You would want an agent in Kowloon (Nathan Road area is popular and close to the Penn) or Hong Kong Island (Central, Wan Chai or Causeway Bay).

My company has used Swire Travel in Hong Kong for the last 10 years, and I used them pretty extensively for personal travel as well. I cannot vouch that they are the cheapest, but they are very reliable. Contact details are:

6/F, East Wing, Warwick House
Taikoo Place
979 King's Road
Quarry Bay Hong Kong
Phone (852) 2579 6688
Fax (852) 2590 0055
website: swiretravel.com/home/contact/contact.html

4. Va Bene is actually my favourite Italian restaurant in Hong Kong, with Grissini in the Grand Hyatt a close second.

Va Bene
58-62 D'Aguilar Street, Hong Kong
Tel: +852 2845 5577
(this is in Lang Fai Kwong, a fun bar/restaurant area in Central)

Grissini
Grand Hyatt Hong Kong
852 2588 1234 ext: 7313.
1 Harbour Road
Causeway Bay, Hong Kong
(On the water, great views)

Don?t forget about Vong on the roof of the Mandarin and Felix on the roof of the Penn, both fabulous restaurants with views to match. Whatever you do, you might want to look into making a booking by early January (esp Vong or Felix) as Valentine's Day is actually kind of a big deal among young Chinese couples. You will see them out holding hands and giving teddy bears to each other and having romantic dinners. This holdiya is rather shamlessly promoted by florists and restaurants, who offer specials. Just something to keep in mind. Also, run a search here, as many people have posted on their favoire restaurants in all price ranges, including me.

3. I think I have mentioned already that you will need a visa for India. According to the US State Dept's website at travel.state.gov/links

Tourist visas require 1 application form, 2 photos, onward/return ticket, $85 - $150 fee, and proof of sufficient funds. Visa must be obtained before arrival. Include prepaid envelope for return of passport by certified mail. For information about business visas and other requirements, consult the Embassy of India, 2536 Massachusetts Ave., NW, Washington, DC 20008 (202/939-9806/9839) or nearest Consulate General: Chicago (312/595-0405), Houston (713-626-2355), New York (212/774-0600) or San Francisco (415/668-0683). Internet: www.indiagov.org

It may take 2 weeks to process your visas. Your passport will have to be valid for at least six months after your proposed date of travel.

You don't need a visa for Hong Kong.

Roccco

Sandi,

Regarding the marathon training, unless planning future trips is now considered aerobic activity, I would say that I am in big trouble!

NYC Marathon is going to be a painful one. The only thing I have going for me is the weather, which should be cool.
I only did get one good month of training in before my last marathon (Vina Del Mar, Chile) and I survived than one and lived to have a very active vacation in Chile immediately afterward, so I can only hope for more of the same.

I will only be trying to break my personal worst marathon time of 5:39:32, my time from the 2002 L.A. Marathon. I think I only need to average 12:55 miles to do better than I did during that very hot day (80 degrees) in L.A.

The one I am going to really be serious about is Hong Kong which has a 5:00 cutoff time (although I did see times recorded as late as 5:13 or so. My PR is 5:07 at the Rock N Roll Marathon in San Diego, three months after my L.A. Marathon (lack of) effort. So, I would like to think that NYC is going to be more of a training run to get me ready for Hong Kong and hopefully my first sub-5 hour marathon effort. It will be continent #3 for me, as far as marathons go, and I will hopefully get to continent #4 in May or June of this year in Europe (going to Italy but may even consider the Vienna Marathon in late May).

Somehow I think that the crowd will get me through the NYC Marathon, as it did at the Rock N Roll Marathon in a much better than expected time.

Roccco

Cicerone,

Your feedback has been priceless and I appreciate each and every post.

After a sleepless night (was woken by my puppy at 2AM for a walk and although he was able to get right back to sleep after his walk, here I am like an idiot, four hours later), I discovered that the Hong Kong Marathon will actually be moved up a couple weeks and be run on February 01st, meaning that my schedule will just move up a couple weeks. Fine by me, as it will be that much sooner!

Unfortunately, Cathay Pacific, for whatever reason has an absurd R/T rate of $1,200+ per person for that date. By flying on EVA Airways or Korean Airlines, I can get R/T air from LAX for about $680 per person. Each would only add about 2 hours to the flight time and would get me to Hong Kong at the more reasonable hour of 10:00 to 11:00 AM, meaning that I wouldn't have to worry about waiting to check into the hotel.

I will likely purchase my room at the Peninsula Hong Kong from Travelocity. For about $370 USD per night I can stay in a Courtyard/Harbor View Room (5th or 6th floor of main building). Supposedly, because I am a Travelocity Preferred Member, I will get a free upgrade to a Deluxe Harbor View, in the Tower section of the hotel, but I'll believe it when I see it.

The marathon date change has thrown me for a loop so now I will have to plan the air a little more and I will take your suggestion of contacting a couple Hong Kong travel agencies. Cathay Pacific, if the price was reasonable (below $900 per person) would still be the best choice.

Thanks again.