Cultural Progression in Japan....
Mar 19th, 2004, 05:05 AM
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Cultural Progression in Japan....
I?ve always wondered of how much Japan has detached itself from its traditional cultural nuances over the past quarter century. Japan has opened its boarders and I recently saw a TV ad where the Japanese are trying to influence outside businesses to invest in their country. With that said, what about the more subtle stuff like customs and beliefs? For instance, I?m learning to write the Japanese adopted form of Kanji at the moment. I?m ambidextrous and often switch between left-handed to right-handed writting at any given moment. Would I be looked down upon if I were caught writing with my left hand? I remember a few years back a Japanese gentlemen hesitated to shake my right hand after seeing me sign a document with my left hand. Another topic has to do with the numbers. Are the numbers 4 & 9 really rarely used in Japan? I wonder how much expectation the Japanese populous hold for foreign visitors to uphold and follow their customs and beliefs.
Mar 19th, 2004, 05:39 AM
#2
Glad you are back. Interesting questions. I'll take a crack at your last item, about customs. I believe that they expect us to uphold their customs while at the same time expecting us to fail to do so and/or to not know the customs.
Here is a hiragana site:
http://www.genki-online.com/kyozai/hiragana.html
Here is a hiragana site:
http://www.genki-online.com/kyozai/hiragana.html
Mar 19th, 2004, 06:23 AM
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From what I've personally observed elsewhere is that most natives will assume that a person is not a foreigner until he/she introduces his or herself as such or makes it painstakingly obvious. How can any culture distinguish a tourist from a native without having to communicate with that person? For instance, someone that has been visiting for 1 week versus a person that was born in Japan but whose ancestry is not of Japanese decent. I?m guessing their level of expectations may be higher for someone that has had time to adopt and conform to their cultural ways. With that being said, how could anyone excuse themself for committing an offensive gesture if it?s not communicated to anyone that they had no awareness of it? For some reason, I don?t think most people are willing alert you of your actions if it offends them.
What I?m trying to grasp here is what one should do in a situation where their actions maybe considered rude. Can a native really decipher whether the person is plain rude or ignorant of their actions because of cultural blind-siding? I?m expecting the natives to assume that I?m also a native first and not stereotype those that don?t physically appear to fit the demographic heritage. So as far as expectations, don?t you think they would hold everyone accountable for their actions?
What I?m trying to grasp here is what one should do in a situation where their actions maybe considered rude. Can a native really decipher whether the person is plain rude or ignorant of their actions because of cultural blind-siding? I?m expecting the natives to assume that I?m also a native first and not stereotype those that don?t physically appear to fit the demographic heritage. So as far as expectations, don?t you think they would hold everyone accountable for their actions?
Mar 19th, 2004, 06:29 AM
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Bonjour BigFeat,
In 20+ years of travel to Japan, spending lots of time with Japanese people here and there, I can say that you will be asked to adhere to customs in proportion to what you are perceived/expected to know of them. As a first-time visitor, you will be forgiven most blunders, provided you are in good faith. They might sometimes be pointed to you, which you should take as a help and an indication that you're expected to return and not do it again (aknowledge it by saying "doomo, sumimasen"
. Mostly, just following common good manners and courtesy will be enough. Patience and a smile go a long way too.
There are only a few don'ts (no soap in the common bath, no chopstick planted vertically in the rice bowl, no spearing of food with chopsticks, no shoes inside the house, no tips in restaurants and taxis, ...) that foreigners are supposed to know about even on the first visit.
As for right/left handedness, it has become far less important that it once was, when lefthanded children were ferociously corrected: even the very traditional kendo (trad. fencing) association admits a left-forward stance in competition, for example. People might be surprised if you start reversing the stroke order while writing kanji, but won't notice wich hand you do it with.
In my experience, nobody will expect a visitor ,especially on a first time, to know about "unlucky" numbers or most common superstitions. They might be pleasantly surprised if you do, though.
The Japanese on this forum will correct me if I said something wrong, but given the fact that I haven't yet been thrown out of a Japanese house or shop, I guess I must have done something right ;-)
In 20+ years of travel to Japan, spending lots of time with Japanese people here and there, I can say that you will be asked to adhere to customs in proportion to what you are perceived/expected to know of them. As a first-time visitor, you will be forgiven most blunders, provided you are in good faith. They might sometimes be pointed to you, which you should take as a help and an indication that you're expected to return and not do it again (aknowledge it by saying "doomo, sumimasen"
. Mostly, just following common good manners and courtesy will be enough. Patience and a smile go a long way too.There are only a few don'ts (no soap in the common bath, no chopstick planted vertically in the rice bowl, no spearing of food with chopsticks, no shoes inside the house, no tips in restaurants and taxis, ...) that foreigners are supposed to know about even on the first visit.
As for right/left handedness, it has become far less important that it once was, when lefthanded children were ferociously corrected: even the very traditional kendo (trad. fencing) association admits a left-forward stance in competition, for example. People might be surprised if you start reversing the stroke order while writing kanji, but won't notice wich hand you do it with.
In my experience, nobody will expect a visitor ,especially on a first time, to know about "unlucky" numbers or most common superstitions. They might be pleasantly surprised if you do, though.
The Japanese on this forum will correct me if I said something wrong, but given the fact that I haven't yet been thrown out of a Japanese house or shop, I guess I must have done something right ;-)
Mar 19th, 2004, 06:41 AM
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BigFeat: "I'm expecting the natives to assume that I'm also a native first and not stereotype those that don't physically appear to fit the demographic heritage."
Don't expect that. Unless you're of Asian descent, the Japanese will never start on the premises that you're "one of them". And if you are or Asian descent and could therefore be thought a native, dispell any confusion as fast as possible.
You will be praised for any knowledge of the language or culture you can display, but don't brag, and don't let yourself be impressed by the lavish compliments everytime you're able to order food or greet someone in (halting?) Japanese.
Don't expect that. Unless you're of Asian descent, the Japanese will never start on the premises that you're "one of them". And if you are or Asian descent and could therefore be thought a native, dispell any confusion as fast as possible.
You will be praised for any knowledge of the language or culture you can display, but don't brag, and don't let yourself be impressed by the lavish compliments everytime you're able to order food or greet someone in (halting?) Japanese.
Mar 19th, 2004, 07:31 AM
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"There are only a few don'ts (no soap in the common bath, no chopstick planted vertically in the rice bowl, no spearing of food with chopsticks, no shoes inside the house, no tips in restaurants and taxis, ...) that foreigners are supposed to know about even on the first visit."
Did I read this correctly 'no tips in restaurants and taxis '? That's something I certainly did not know. Can you clarify what the rationale behind this is for me please?
Did I read this correctly 'no tips in restaurants and taxis '? That's something I certainly did not know. Can you clarify what the rationale behind this is for me please?
Mar 19th, 2004, 10:48 AM
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'no tips in restaurants and taxis'
I'm not rationalizing it for you BigFeat but this is absolutely true in Japan. How easy it is not having to wonder how much to tip to your waiters and taxi drivers!
I'm not rationalizing it for you BigFeat but this is absolutely true in Japan. How easy it is not having to wonder how much to tip to your waiters and taxi drivers!
Mar 19th, 2004, 11:42 AM
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I wouldn't worry about being left-handed. After years in Japan, I've been only criticized once for eating with my left hand. It's completely accepted among the younger generation. Writing kanji on the other hand is a different story. Stoke order is designed with the right-hander in mind, so I'd stick to learning with the right hand if possible. Also, I've read and generally have tried to avoid all the little no-nos that you read about in books, but at one time or another seen native Japanese blowing their nose in the restaurant, putting their chopsticks in rice, pointing at each other with chopsticks, etc etc... Regarding numbers, the number 4 -- 'shi' is also the word for death, so people are traditionally careful with its use. I'm pretty sure its historically tied in with Chinese writing systems, beliefs and religion trickling into Japan long, long ago. Hope this helps
Mar 19th, 2004, 12:15 PM
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I agree with robm about being left-handed. No worries in today's Japan.
> Stoke order
Did you mean stroke?
4 = shi (death). That's just two homophone words. Nothing more. The same with 9 = ku (pain, toruture). Few japanese (esp.younger generation) bother with this today. Yet it's interesting to know these things.
> Stoke order
Did you mean stroke?
4 = shi (death). That's just two homophone words. Nothing more. The same with 9 = ku (pain, toruture). Few japanese (esp.younger generation) bother with this today. Yet it's interesting to know these things.
Mar 19th, 2004, 03:53 PM
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We are Americans, and have lived in Japan for almost 9 years. Our daughter was born here, speaks Japanese as one of her 2 languages. She is about as "native" as can be while being fair skinned and blond. No matter where we go or what we do, no one ever, ever assumes we are Japanese. We are always gaijin (outside people), even though we know quite well language, culture and customs. A "foreigner," even from another Asian country, is always a foreigner.
There have been some very famous sumo wrestlers that are native Hawaiian (Akebono for example), Samoan or Mongolian, that have gone so far as to adopt Japanese nationality, that are still and always will remain foreigners. No one forgets that they aren't native Japanese...and they are top-class, highly respected, sumo wrestlers...how much more traditional can you get?
Being left or right handed is not an issue in Japan nearly as much as in other countries where the left hand is considered the dirty hand and the right hand the eating hand. My daughter has several left-handed children in her class.
Foreign visitors aren't expected to know the intricacies of the culture...but they are expected to follow the visible cultural rules, such as removing shoes before entering homes/ryokan/baths/temples and many other buildings (but not all, talk about confusing!). Always wash before getting into the bath...and never, ever use soap in the bath itself - it's a common bath for everyone and soap in it will require that it be drained and cleaned and refilled, and the shopkeeper will be irate at the very least. Everyday manners, like please and thankyou and excuse me go a long way, just like anywhere else in the world.
Try your best, ask if you don't know. Apologize if you make a mistake.
Unfortunately, most (but certainly not all) Japanese do group all foreigners into the gaijin group and all native Japanese into another. As a tourist, everyone will know you are a tourist and you will be treated as such. You won't encounter any situations where you need to know good Japanese manners, like weddings and funerals, neighborhood life, school.
I would say enjoy your trip, be polite as you'd be anywhere else in the world, pay attention to what others around you are doing, and don't worry at all about whether anyone will think you are native. No one will for a second. Ask whenever you are in doubt as to what is appropriate. And no, don't tip, because it's not the custom and service staff are paid a salary roughly equivalent to office workers. A waitress makes the about the same wage as a convenience store clerk...between 800 and 1000 yen an hour.
There have been some very famous sumo wrestlers that are native Hawaiian (Akebono for example), Samoan or Mongolian, that have gone so far as to adopt Japanese nationality, that are still and always will remain foreigners. No one forgets that they aren't native Japanese...and they are top-class, highly respected, sumo wrestlers...how much more traditional can you get?
Being left or right handed is not an issue in Japan nearly as much as in other countries where the left hand is considered the dirty hand and the right hand the eating hand. My daughter has several left-handed children in her class.
Foreign visitors aren't expected to know the intricacies of the culture...but they are expected to follow the visible cultural rules, such as removing shoes before entering homes/ryokan/baths/temples and many other buildings (but not all, talk about confusing!). Always wash before getting into the bath...and never, ever use soap in the bath itself - it's a common bath for everyone and soap in it will require that it be drained and cleaned and refilled, and the shopkeeper will be irate at the very least. Everyday manners, like please and thankyou and excuse me go a long way, just like anywhere else in the world.
Try your best, ask if you don't know. Apologize if you make a mistake.
Unfortunately, most (but certainly not all) Japanese do group all foreigners into the gaijin group and all native Japanese into another. As a tourist, everyone will know you are a tourist and you will be treated as such. You won't encounter any situations where you need to know good Japanese manners, like weddings and funerals, neighborhood life, school.
I would say enjoy your trip, be polite as you'd be anywhere else in the world, pay attention to what others around you are doing, and don't worry at all about whether anyone will think you are native. No one will for a second. Ask whenever you are in doubt as to what is appropriate. And no, don't tip, because it's not the custom and service staff are paid a salary roughly equivalent to office workers. A waitress makes the about the same wage as a convenience store clerk...between 800 and 1000 yen an hour.
Mar 19th, 2004, 07:11 PM
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My opinion is that it depends on what you're doing in Japan. If you're a visiting tourist, you won't have any problems at all. Japanese people are extremely friendly in helping visitors, and I've never found any local being offended by anything I did.
However, it might be quite different if you're trying to close a business deal in Japan; and you better know all the traditions or customs if you're going to work there long-term.
However, it might be quite different if you're trying to close a business deal in Japan; and you better know all the traditions or customs if you're going to work there long-term.
Mar 19th, 2004, 07:38 PM
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Exactly right, rkkwan...as long term residents we are expected to know more...but not all...of the cultural intricacies. For tourist visitors, good manners and common sense are all that is expected. Places where an in depth cultural knowledge would be required (like true geisha houses, exclusive ryokan and onsen...for example) will not allow foreigners at all.
Mar 22nd, 2004, 01:48 AM
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Hello everyone.
I am very interested in these messages.
As a Japanese, I want to say "Please don't too much worry about Japanese manners and customs".
Now I am in 30's and have been living in Japan since I was born, but some Japanese traditional manners and customs are not familiar with me. Especially very fomal or rarely used ones.
Of course, I take off my shoes in my house, or don't wash my body with soap in a public bath. But, for example, when I attend a funeral, I often wonder how should I do. I don't know how I sould do when I go to true geisha houses, too.
This is partly because young Japanese are getting unfamiliar with Japanese culture these days. This may be common phenomenon in many countries in the world.
Another reason is traditional manners and customs are very much different even within Japan. In ancient times, Japan was devided many countries and each country had their own traditions.
This historical evidence affects today. Cultural differences within Japan is still huge, and even a Japanese may be treated as "yosomono".
"Gaijin" has some friendly implications, but "Yosomono" has not.
It means foreigner, used when a person is (or seems like) Japanese but have differrent cultural background or birth place in Japan.
I was a "yosomono" when I was 7 years old. I moved from Sapporo, biggest city in Northan half of Japan, to some rural area near Tokyo.
At first, my classmates and thier parents in the small town were curious about me and my family, then they alienated us because of difference of dialect, manners, customs, and so on.
I lived there for over 10 years, and many people in the little town got friendly at last, but it took long time.
Even Japanese may treated as foreigners, so don't be nervous about that!
And today, most Japanese young people are free from these kind of bad convention.
"gaijin"-san may be welcomed to ask about these cultural matters, so don't hesitate to ask Japanese people. We also ask traditional standards to our parents, boss. It's quite normal and common.
Some additonal comments.
"Would I be looked down upon if I were caught writing with my left hand? "
Today, most Japanese don't care about that, I thnik.
"a Japanese gentlemen hesitated to shake my right hand "
That was this man's manner, not common in Japanese.
"Are the numbers 4 & 9 really rarely used in Japan? "
These numbers are used generally, but are avoided when using them remind us of unlucky situations. For example, 49 or 44 numbers are not used for car license plate, 4th floor is not exist in a hospital building(
sometimes 9th floor, too) .
I am very interested in these messages.
As a Japanese, I want to say "Please don't too much worry about Japanese manners and customs".
Now I am in 30's and have been living in Japan since I was born, but some Japanese traditional manners and customs are not familiar with me. Especially very fomal or rarely used ones.
Of course, I take off my shoes in my house, or don't wash my body with soap in a public bath. But, for example, when I attend a funeral, I often wonder how should I do. I don't know how I sould do when I go to true geisha houses, too.
This is partly because young Japanese are getting unfamiliar with Japanese culture these days. This may be common phenomenon in many countries in the world.
Another reason is traditional manners and customs are very much different even within Japan. In ancient times, Japan was devided many countries and each country had their own traditions.
This historical evidence affects today. Cultural differences within Japan is still huge, and even a Japanese may be treated as "yosomono".
"Gaijin" has some friendly implications, but "Yosomono" has not.
It means foreigner, used when a person is (or seems like) Japanese but have differrent cultural background or birth place in Japan.
I was a "yosomono" when I was 7 years old. I moved from Sapporo, biggest city in Northan half of Japan, to some rural area near Tokyo.
At first, my classmates and thier parents in the small town were curious about me and my family, then they alienated us because of difference of dialect, manners, customs, and so on.
I lived there for over 10 years, and many people in the little town got friendly at last, but it took long time.
Even Japanese may treated as foreigners, so don't be nervous about that!
And today, most Japanese young people are free from these kind of bad convention.
"gaijin"-san may be welcomed to ask about these cultural matters, so don't hesitate to ask Japanese people. We also ask traditional standards to our parents, boss. It's quite normal and common.
Some additonal comments.
"Would I be looked down upon if I were caught writing with my left hand? "
Today, most Japanese don't care about that, I thnik.
"a Japanese gentlemen hesitated to shake my right hand "
That was this man's manner, not common in Japanese.
"Are the numbers 4 & 9 really rarely used in Japan? "
These numbers are used generally, but are avoided when using them remind us of unlucky situations. For example, 49 or 44 numbers are not used for car license plate, 4th floor is not exist in a hospital building(
sometimes 9th floor, too) .
Mar 22nd, 2004, 04:01 PM
#15
BigFeat-
In Japan, they will quickly read you as a foreigner even if you are of Japanese ancestry. The way you stand, the way you dress, your haircut and the way you meet their eye will all tip them off long before you say anything.
The good news is that they will be very forgiving of many cultural faux pas, as they expect foreigners to not know better. They will be equally pleased when you surprise them by doing something right!
As a tourist, this should not be a problem. The problems crop up when you start interacting with them on a different level...basically when you start speaking or writing Japanese. Again they will be forgiving of obvious mistakes, but it is the little things..using the wrong word or leaving out an honorific that will have them wondering if the slight just might have been on purpose. The problem is that they won't ask you if you intended to be rude, as that would be rude in itself, and of course they aren't 100% sure you were rude anyway --The classic misunderstanding that you can have even in your native tongue!
I speak Japanese, but am very careful to use my tourist version and say I'm sorry a lot. My gaijin appearance is actually an assest. They are very forgiving and helpful knowing that I am a stranger in a strange land. Sometimes I think they don't even realize I'm speaking Japanese, which is okay. Don't want them thinking I get the nuances of the language when I don't.
My Husband, who is Japanese American always is quick to explain (in Japanese), Sorry, I don't understand, I'm from Hawaii. More than once, before he learned that phrase, he had people think he was being rude (or retarded?) to not respond to their comments.
In Japan, they will quickly read you as a foreigner even if you are of Japanese ancestry. The way you stand, the way you dress, your haircut and the way you meet their eye will all tip them off long before you say anything.
The good news is that they will be very forgiving of many cultural faux pas, as they expect foreigners to not know better. They will be equally pleased when you surprise them by doing something right!
As a tourist, this should not be a problem. The problems crop up when you start interacting with them on a different level...basically when you start speaking or writing Japanese. Again they will be forgiving of obvious mistakes, but it is the little things..using the wrong word or leaving out an honorific that will have them wondering if the slight just might have been on purpose. The problem is that they won't ask you if you intended to be rude, as that would be rude in itself, and of course they aren't 100% sure you were rude anyway --The classic misunderstanding that you can have even in your native tongue!
I speak Japanese, but am very careful to use my tourist version and say I'm sorry a lot. My gaijin appearance is actually an assest. They are very forgiving and helpful knowing that I am a stranger in a strange land. Sometimes I think they don't even realize I'm speaking Japanese, which is okay. Don't want them thinking I get the nuances of the language when I don't.
My Husband, who is Japanese American always is quick to explain (in Japanese), Sorry, I don't understand, I'm from Hawaii. More than once, before he learned that phrase, he had people think he was being rude (or retarded?) to not respond to their comments.
Mar 23rd, 2004, 03:47 AM
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A question about tipping:
I read an article suggesting that, when staying at a ryokan, it is appropriate to offer a tip (called kokorozuke?) to your maid. One offers the tip at the beginning of the stay (not the end), and that the money is *always* presented in an envelope or in decorative tissue paper. Can anyone confirm this?
I read an article suggesting that, when staying at a ryokan, it is appropriate to offer a tip (called kokorozuke?) to your maid. One offers the tip at the beginning of the stay (not the end), and that the money is *always* presented in an envelope or in decorative tissue paper. Can anyone confirm this?
Mar 23rd, 2004, 07:41 AM
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Rizzuto, your statement is correct including the word "kokoro-zuke" (kokoro=heart + zuke/tsukeru=attatch?). At higher end ryokans, this tipping in advance could still be done and usually given to the maid (in kimono, I picture)assinged to you room so she would serve you tea, dinner and prepare your futon. The amount of it should be no less than a few thousand yen and could be a bit more. This means "Thank you IN ADVANCE for taking good care of us during our stay". But with the hotels and ryokans I tend to stay (middle/inexpensive), I don't have to worry about this.
Mar 23rd, 2004, 02:58 PM
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So I'm guessing for a hotel that merely has a maintenance personnel change your towels every other day and replace toiletries there is no tipping required despite the cost of the room per night?
