Where I eat in Manhattan.
Apr 15th, 2011, 06:42 PM
#21
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I wonder too. Although it's now been about two years since I've eaten at LeBernardin (but I've eaten there about four or five times) I still find it one of the top restaurants in the WORLD, not just NYC -- everything about it is flawless in my book, and again I find it very NON-pretentious (although they have every reason to BE pretentious).
And yes, I do consider those places in the theatre district. Too many people think of the theatre district as simply the one or two block actual Times Square, but Le Bernardin, for example is only about 2 blocks from Wicked, Mama Mia, and Jersey Boys. And I extend the theatre district (easy walking from most Broadway theatres) to include all of Ninth Avenue from 42nd to the low 50s and its myriad inexpensive ethnic restaurants as well.
But I will agree with most of that list of theatre restaurants, Auduchamp -- mostly you seem to have found the not so great ones.
And yes, I do consider those places in the theatre district. Too many people think of the theatre district as simply the one or two block actual Times Square, but Le Bernardin, for example is only about 2 blocks from Wicked, Mama Mia, and Jersey Boys. And I extend the theatre district (easy walking from most Broadway theatres) to include all of Ninth Avenue from 42nd to the low 50s and its myriad inexpensive ethnic restaurants as well.
But I will agree with most of that list of theatre restaurants, Auduchamp -- mostly you seem to have found the not so great ones.
Apr 15th, 2011, 07:40 PM
#22
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I have eaten twice at Le Bernardin, once on someone else's expense account and once as a celebratory meal. All the people with whom I have dined had the same impression. It was of course, fine but not stratopheric. And I was actually in a suit both times not my normal custom of jeans and some clean shirt.
There was nothing memorable and there was nothing to propel me back. (Do not get me started on Michelin in NYC. It is so francocentric as to be useless. Although I heard they actually threw Americans a bone this year.)
When I think of the great meals I have eaten, I actually recall what I ate and wonderful it was. That did not happen at Le Bernardin. And actually the second time, the service was not that attentive. And I am one who hates to be doted upon.
And I must be honest, we only eat in that expensive a restaurant once a year. And now that we do not toil at regualr jobs, we take advantage of the prix fixe lunches.
And I have a found that the establishmens of most celebrity chefs are lacking, especially Batali and David Chang. We ate at Del Posto about two years ago and now we are told that they knew they were underperforming. Well they did not send a refund. I have eaten at Esca, Cafe Mono (many times) and Lupa and just didn't get it. Maybe because the named chefs are never there.
And I wonder how often Eric Ripert is there.
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Neo, Bert
Many, not all, of the restaurants you recommend in Theater District are pricey. And I would rather get a meal elsewhere that is incrementally not as good but expontentially cheaper. And I admit it is a personal prejudice.
There was nothing memorable and there was nothing to propel me back. (Do not get me started on Michelin in NYC. It is so francocentric as to be useless. Although I heard they actually threw Americans a bone this year.)
When I think of the great meals I have eaten, I actually recall what I ate and wonderful it was. That did not happen at Le Bernardin. And actually the second time, the service was not that attentive. And I am one who hates to be doted upon.
And I must be honest, we only eat in that expensive a restaurant once a year. And now that we do not toil at regualr jobs, we take advantage of the prix fixe lunches.
And I have a found that the establishmens of most celebrity chefs are lacking, especially Batali and David Chang. We ate at Del Posto about two years ago and now we are told that they knew they were underperforming. Well they did not send a refund. I have eaten at Esca, Cafe Mono (many times) and Lupa and just didn't get it. Maybe because the named chefs are never there.
And I wonder how often Eric Ripert is there.
___________________
Neo, Bert
Many, not all, of the restaurants you recommend in Theater District are pricey. And I would rather get a meal elsewhere that is incrementally not as good but expontentially cheaper. And I admit it is a personal prejudice.
Apr 15th, 2011, 07:46 PM
#23
"And I would rather get a meal elsewhere that is incrementally not as good but expontentially cheaper."
As NeoPatrick pointed out, many would rather be within a few blocks of their Broadway show than eat somewhere "elsewhere" and then worry about making the curtain call.
"And I admit it is a personal prejudice"
Each of us have our preferences. For many of us - and many tourists to NYC - we'd rather find a good option close by. Just a personal preference.
As NeoPatrick pointed out, many would rather be within a few blocks of their Broadway show than eat somewhere "elsewhere" and then worry about making the curtain call.
"And I admit it is a personal prejudice"
Each of us have our preferences. For many of us - and many tourists to NYC - we'd rather find a good option close by. Just a personal preference.
Apr 16th, 2011, 05:04 AM
#24
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Thanks for the list! In the theater district, we've done Esca for a late night dinner after a play (won't work for a musical, they run too long) and had a lovely meal. Otherwise, early dinner before a show is usually a pizza at John's on 44th. (It takes most of a carafe of wine to get hubby to tolerate a musical.)
Apr 16th, 2011, 05:10 AM
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"And I would rather get a meal elsewhere that is incrementally not as good but expontentially cheaper. And I admit it is a personal prejudice."
First, I don't think all those restaurants are that pricey -- I mainly came up with a list that seemed similar in range to the list in the original post. But in any case -- you are entitled to have whatever preference you want of course, but many others would prefer to have an "incrementally BETTER" meal and at the same time one that is infinitely "less hassle" to get to and from. Having the hassle of traveling in and out of the theatre district during the rush and paying to do so (even four subway tickets would not be that cheap) in order to get a meal that is "not as good" as one you could get a block or two from the theatre and hotel just plain doesn't make sense to me!
And don't forget, there are far more restaurants in the theatre district doing special pretheatre specials than there are outside that district. So if price is the big concern, there are some great ways to get around that -- in addition to simply choosing one of the many really good inexpensive restaurants (if your goal was to travel elsewhere to really good inexpensive restaurant).
I'm somewhat dumbfounded about the LeBernardin comments, although I do understand people being put off by very expensive and very formal places. But perhaps part of the reason I love it so is that it is a SPECIAL place and a very small part of its being special includes knowing that you are not surrounded by a bunch of people in jeans and casual dress. It's sometimes nice to go where EVERYONE looks like they came to a special place. If that sounds snooty on my part, so be it. And please don't try to say that a diner shouldn't be bothered by what other people around him are wearing. That's as silly as saying he shouldn't be bothered by the walls around him or stains on the carpet. The entire setting and surroundings are a part of a fine dining experience, and that includes the other people.
First, I don't think all those restaurants are that pricey -- I mainly came up with a list that seemed similar in range to the list in the original post. But in any case -- you are entitled to have whatever preference you want of course, but many others would prefer to have an "incrementally BETTER" meal and at the same time one that is infinitely "less hassle" to get to and from. Having the hassle of traveling in and out of the theatre district during the rush and paying to do so (even four subway tickets would not be that cheap) in order to get a meal that is "not as good" as one you could get a block or two from the theatre and hotel just plain doesn't make sense to me!
And don't forget, there are far more restaurants in the theatre district doing special pretheatre specials than there are outside that district. So if price is the big concern, there are some great ways to get around that -- in addition to simply choosing one of the many really good inexpensive restaurants (if your goal was to travel elsewhere to really good inexpensive restaurant).
I'm somewhat dumbfounded about the LeBernardin comments, although I do understand people being put off by very expensive and very formal places. But perhaps part of the reason I love it so is that it is a SPECIAL place and a very small part of its being special includes knowing that you are not surrounded by a bunch of people in jeans and casual dress. It's sometimes nice to go where EVERYONE looks like they came to a special place. If that sounds snooty on my part, so be it. And please don't try to say that a diner shouldn't be bothered by what other people around him are wearing. That's as silly as saying he shouldn't be bothered by the walls around him or stains on the carpet. The entire setting and surroundings are a part of a fine dining experience, and that includes the other people.
Apr 16th, 2011, 05:23 AM
#26
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I agree with you, Neo. I thoroughly enjoy being in a place where people "dress" for dinner. But the truth is I get my fill of that dining at a place called Tiro A Segno a few times per month. It just makes for a more enjoyable meal by bringing out a higher level of professionalism in the staff and civility in the other patrons.
I've never been there, but I'm sitting on a $250 gift certificate for Le Bernadin I got for Christmas. Looking forward to going, and I fully understand that it won't cover my check, but I will certainly report back.
I've never been there, but I'm sitting on a $250 gift certificate for Le Bernadin I got for Christmas. Looking forward to going, and I fully understand that it won't cover my check, but I will certainly report back.
Apr 16th, 2011, 05:42 AM
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Neo writes:
And please don't try to say that a diner shouldn't be bothered by what other people around him are wearing. That's as silly as saying he shouldn't be bothered by the walls around him or stains on the carpet
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Out, damn'd stain! Out, I say.
My obligation is have clean clothes and be well showered and groomed. There is no way my clothing should be a concern to others. They are an extension of my personality and choices and not chosen to fulfill the capricious and contradictory criteria of people I have never met nor will meet again.
Often, there is a discussion about what to wear to theater and the lamentation of the clothing that theater goers wear these days. I asked a friend who is a player in a well-known symphony if she cared what the audience wore. She said that she was just glad that they came and could barely see past the first row.
When you go to an expensive restaurant are you offended at costume jewelry or a necktie that someone bought on the street for $5? As noted it is impossible to please everyone, thus I dress as I see fit so that I am comfortable for the occasion.
And please don't try to say that a diner shouldn't be bothered by what other people around him are wearing. That's as silly as saying he shouldn't be bothered by the walls around him or stains on the carpet
___________________________________
Out, damn'd stain! Out, I say.
My obligation is have clean clothes and be well showered and groomed. There is no way my clothing should be a concern to others. They are an extension of my personality and choices and not chosen to fulfill the capricious and contradictory criteria of people I have never met nor will meet again.
Often, there is a discussion about what to wear to theater and the lamentation of the clothing that theater goers wear these days. I asked a friend who is a player in a well-known symphony if she cared what the audience wore. She said that she was just glad that they came and could barely see past the first row.
When you go to an expensive restaurant are you offended at costume jewelry or a necktie that someone bought on the street for $5? As noted it is impossible to please everyone, thus I dress as I see fit so that I am comfortable for the occasion.
Apr 16th, 2011, 06:09 AM
#28
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Great thread ciaony!
I'll throw in my two cents - I live uptown, am an avid theatergoer, and for the last few years work IN Times Square. My philosophy has always been to dine near the theater. The last thing I want is the pressure to get to the theater after a meal. Eating far from the theaters will guarantee that there are no cabs in sight or the subway you're on has a sick passenger and you're not going anywhere
Tonight for instance, we're seeing a play in the East Village and we will dine nearby. Usually, but not always, I also want a moderately priced meal before theater. Fine dining, which I love, is our evening activity, not a rush before a performance. As a result, most of the places I frequent are fair - good, not great. I would add Blue Fin to the B'way list although it is not inexpensive. And btw, even though I live uptown, most of our weekend dining is downtown and has been for years simply because that's where many restaurants that we like are. In the many years living here, demographics change. Bottom line, if I weren't at work or going to theater, you couldn't pay me enough to get anywhere near Times Square especially for dining.
To add to the burger list: 5 Napkin Burger, Little Giant and Union Square Cafe (for lunch).
Adu - I ate at Pomaire this week - mediocre food. It was the extremely reasonable prix fixe, but at full price, it would have been robbery. I would never go back at any price. And 2nd Ave Deli is finally close to opening uptown. You were right that it's taken years.
I'll throw in my two cents - I live uptown, am an avid theatergoer, and for the last few years work IN Times Square. My philosophy has always been to dine near the theater. The last thing I want is the pressure to get to the theater after a meal. Eating far from the theaters will guarantee that there are no cabs in sight or the subway you're on has a sick passenger and you're not going anywhere
Tonight for instance, we're seeing a play in the East Village and we will dine nearby. Usually, but not always, I also want a moderately priced meal before theater. Fine dining, which I love, is our evening activity, not a rush before a performance. As a result, most of the places I frequent are fair - good, not great. I would add Blue Fin to the B'way list although it is not inexpensive. And btw, even though I live uptown, most of our weekend dining is downtown and has been for years simply because that's where many restaurants that we like are. In the many years living here, demographics change. Bottom line, if I weren't at work or going to theater, you couldn't pay me enough to get anywhere near Times Square especially for dining.
To add to the burger list: 5 Napkin Burger, Little Giant and Union Square Cafe (for lunch).
Adu - I ate at Pomaire this week - mediocre food. It was the extremely reasonable prix fixe, but at full price, it would have been robbery. I would never go back at any price. And 2nd Ave Deli is finally close to opening uptown. You were right that it's taken years.
Apr 16th, 2011, 06:18 AM
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CPGirl
And Pomaire is the one I would recommend out of the lot. The choice was akin to would you rather be given a lethal injection or hung.
Which place have you chosen for the East Village?
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BTW, Neo
I might be delusional, but I like to think of myself as something more than a stain on the carpet. But after years on Fodor's this estimation may be accurate to many.
And Pomaire is the one I would recommend out of the lot. The choice was akin to would you rather be given a lethal injection or hung.
Which place have you chosen for the East Village?
_________
BTW, Neo
I might be delusional, but I like to think of myself as something more than a stain on the carpet. But after years on Fodor's this estimation may be accurate to many.
Apr 16th, 2011, 06:30 AM
#30
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I'll repeat that most of the places I mentioned have relatively inexpensive (by New York City standards) pre-theater prix-fixe menus. Milos, for example, offers a four-course dinner for $45 (plus beverages, tax and tip, of course). I can appreciate that some would consider that "pricey," but I can also appreciate that some are willing simply to eat instead of dine. That's certainly a matter of personal taste (no pun intended).
Incidentally, as terrific as Le Bernardin is, I would never consider going there pre-theater or pre-concert. While they, like all the others, can get you out the door in two hours or so, that place is certainly not one where I'd wish to rush through an exquisite dinner.
And, so far as dress code goes, it does make a difference to us what other diners wear. Peoples' attire contributes to, or detracts from, the overall ambiance of a place. "Jackets required" has become "jackets preferred." For the most part such "codes" have become fairly lax over the years even in gastronomic temples like Le Bernardin, where we've even seen (gasp!) tee-shirts and jeans. These days, restaurants are loath to turn people away no matter how inappropriately they are dressed. Does anyone remember when places used to have several jackets on hand for diners who arrived without one? (I can recall once being fitted with one--at the Ritz-Carlton in Naples, Florida--that had sleeves so long it must have been originally owned by an orangutan!)
I'm not really happy with the current sartorial trend, but I must admit that I've relaxed my own standards (to a point) when it comes to dining out in Manhattan and concert-going. When we're headed to the theater with dinner beforehand, I generally wear a sport coat with a sweater or dress shirt and slacks, no necktie. The same is true for Carnegie Hall. But for the Metropolitan Opera, I still wear a dress suit. Our Saturday matinée performances precede dinner out (usually for a large group of us) at some premier place. Dressing up is part of that monthly-or-so musical, social and gastronomical experience.
Frankly, I don't care whether an opera singer or an orchestra member can see what I'm wearing or not. I wear what I wear because it makes me feel good doing so, not to impress anyone positively or negatively.
And, no, I don't examine the quality or cost of someone's necktie or jewelry. The very fact that he or she bothered to wear it says plenty about that diner's sense of style and occasion. What offends me a great deal more is someone yakking away loudly and inconsiderately on a cell phone. (But, let's not go there.)
Incidentally, as terrific as Le Bernardin is, I would never consider going there pre-theater or pre-concert. While they, like all the others, can get you out the door in two hours or so, that place is certainly not one where I'd wish to rush through an exquisite dinner.
And, so far as dress code goes, it does make a difference to us what other diners wear. Peoples' attire contributes to, or detracts from, the overall ambiance of a place. "Jackets required" has become "jackets preferred." For the most part such "codes" have become fairly lax over the years even in gastronomic temples like Le Bernardin, where we've even seen (gasp!) tee-shirts and jeans. These days, restaurants are loath to turn people away no matter how inappropriately they are dressed. Does anyone remember when places used to have several jackets on hand for diners who arrived without one? (I can recall once being fitted with one--at the Ritz-Carlton in Naples, Florida--that had sleeves so long it must have been originally owned by an orangutan!)
I'm not really happy with the current sartorial trend, but I must admit that I've relaxed my own standards (to a point) when it comes to dining out in Manhattan and concert-going. When we're headed to the theater with dinner beforehand, I generally wear a sport coat with a sweater or dress shirt and slacks, no necktie. The same is true for Carnegie Hall. But for the Metropolitan Opera, I still wear a dress suit. Our Saturday matinée performances precede dinner out (usually for a large group of us) at some premier place. Dressing up is part of that monthly-or-so musical, social and gastronomical experience.
Frankly, I don't care whether an opera singer or an orchestra member can see what I'm wearing or not. I wear what I wear because it makes me feel good doing so, not to impress anyone positively or negatively.
And, no, I don't examine the quality or cost of someone's necktie or jewelry. The very fact that he or she bothered to wear it says plenty about that diner's sense of style and occasion. What offends me a great deal more is someone yakking away loudly and inconsiderately on a cell phone. (But, let's not go there.)
Apr 16th, 2011, 08:08 AM
#34
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We went to the NY Philharmonic for over 20 years. The only time I made sure I wore a suit was one opening night. They had Pinchas Zukerman, Schlomo Mintz (a favorite Israeli after dinner treat) and Itzhak Perlman.
I now live in a world where people do not dress up. For my real life job, I had to wear a suit every day even on summer Fridays. I would wear jeans to work and change in my office and then chnage again at the end of the day. I felt like was playing grpwn up. It was a facade that I did not relish.
What you wear is your concern and I am not part of the scenery. Enjoy the hell out of your meal or show and leave me out of it.
I now live in a world where people do not dress up. For my real life job, I had to wear a suit every day even on summer Fridays. I would wear jeans to work and change in my office and then chnage again at the end of the day. I felt like was playing grpwn up. It was a facade that I did not relish.
What you wear is your concern and I am not part of the scenery. Enjoy the hell out of your meal or show and leave me out of it.
Apr 16th, 2011, 08:41 AM
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OK, that fully explains a lot. I DO understand your thinking regarding all that. But since it is clear you don't care what others around you are wearing and you don't care about "formal facades", then you would indeed be throwing money away to go to a place like LeBernardin, where the surroundings, ambiance,tuxedoed waiters, and -- yes, even the other patrons -- are all a major part of the total experience. Since you don't appreciate or relish that sort of experience, then indeed it would not be a worthwhile splurge to you. But it is to some of the rest of us.
But one part of your reply is quite interesting -- that you "made sure" you were very dressed up for that one very special concert. That's kind of how some of us feel about a once in a year type LeBernardin dining experience -- we want to make sure we are dressed for the special occasion and really hope everyone else does the same.
But one part of your reply is quite interesting -- that you "made sure" you were very dressed up for that one very special concert. That's kind of how some of us feel about a once in a year type LeBernardin dining experience -- we want to make sure we are dressed for the special occasion and really hope everyone else does the same.
Apr 16th, 2011, 08:49 AM
#36
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Petrossian! Thank you, bspielman! I've been racking my brain trying to come up with the name of that restaurant. I was there probably 18 years ago and love the memory of the waiter pouring vodka into frozen glasses and ending with a perfect meniscus.
Apr 16th, 2011, 12:06 PM
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But one part of your reply is quite interesting -- that you "made sure" you were very dressed up for that one very special concert.
There were one over-riding reason. I was afraid they would not let me in for opening night dressed in jeans even if they were black.
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I was there probably 18 years ago and love the memory of the waiter pouring vodka into frozen glasses and ending with a perfect meniscus.
What does your knee have to do with this?
There were one over-riding reason. I was afraid they would not let me in for opening night dressed in jeans even if they were black.
_________________________
I was there probably 18 years ago and love the memory of the waiter pouring vodka into frozen glasses and ending with a perfect meniscus.
What does your knee have to do with this?
Apr 16th, 2011, 12:47 PM
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I'll have to disagree with the blanket condemnation of establishments on Restaurant Row (West 46th between 8th and 9th) as "mediocre." There are at least two outstanding restaurants there, namely, Lattanzi and Orso. Cheap, they're not; but excellent, they are!
I'll be the first to admit that the theater district is not the prime location for a host of worthwhile restaurants, in terms of overall price and/or quality. But, if you take the time to check them out, there are some decent places to dine there. When I'm going to the theater, I don't want to have to schlep from a different area for dining to another area for theater.
I'll be the first to admit that the theater district is not the prime location for a host of worthwhile restaurants, in terms of overall price and/or quality. But, if you take the time to check them out, there are some decent places to dine there. When I'm going to the theater, I don't want to have to schlep from a different area for dining to another area for theater.
