For those of you who are really intrigued and see the irony of this commercial Amish interest upon the Amish life-I'm posting the following information. I have lived within their community at one time and know their economics in the Indiana/ Michigan/ Illinois areas. Actually, I have been in a semi-official capacity for a specific community problem.

These are true Amish tradition communities, I speak of. They are not "commercialized" to the extent of the more Eastern Amish. Those I know much less about, from first hand experience. In my groups- all families have actively working farms and animals. Children participate long hours as do parents 24/7. They go to their own self schools and it starts after work. Work starts before dawn. Education is not encouraged past the age of 12 to 14- that I can see. Girls are cooking huge meals by that age and usually caring for home and most of the animals. It's just that they think "what for" and don't see any good reason for it.

Work and religious belief do center their lives much, much more than any other group I have ever seen myself. Much more than Catholic religious community life, for instance. Gender roles are also extremely specificied, and the social structures- family and belief systems, are patriarchal.

Amish are NOT instructed to be "poor" and opportunities for profit are GREATLY encouraged. Living simple does not mean living without a "bank" of money. Money is banked within the community structure/ elders, but you do have family funds too. This does not change their central belief systems or how they live within their homes and at
"church". Church is the home, and you literally empty your house out each year (all the furniture etc. goes in the barn most of the time) so that you become CHURCH once a year. They do EVERYTHING on their own (school, doctor etc.) and yet pay every tax to our government. In this economy, it is necessity to make every dollar they can.

I love the homes, with lanterns on the walls. I love the games after dinner with small blocks and twisted homemade toys/ shapes that use imagination and individuality to the max. I love the fact that handicapped individuals are raised exactly like their brothers and sisters. Lots of other things are not so great. The women do have considerable health problems and abuse is not uncommon. It is a peaceful, but a very hard life physically. They chose this life when becoming an adult and teenagers are not held by the same standards. A lot of intermarriage has developed a higher than average birth defect and/or genetic based health problem percentage. They will and do call the "English" (we are all English that are Americans) Doctor when absolutely needed. Sometimes it is LATE by the time this happens. Women have tons of gynecological problems that never get fixed, for instance.

Because of the economics, some true Amish have electricity/phones in their barns and not in their house. This is because of their furniture business, which has kept the whole ball rolling. It is allowed by each patriarch/elder and is usually on a case to case decision. Shunning does occur.They are all individuals as we all are, but I have seen the most peaceful and happy children among the Amish. Maybe it is the "structure" of total protection. If one has disaster, the other 25 families will build for them from scratch. Everything else stops. Their language (sounds like German, but is different dialect)is being kept alive, but more and more they talk English in daily sales transactions.

In Michigan where I am now, the Amish have tons of trouble with buggy accidents. And just this year I got a load of manure all over my tires at a general store of theirs. It's hard to mesh the engine with the horse. They are losing their buggy tie up places as development occurs. Lots will ride in a car with you, but not drive themselves.

A bad Elder can make for a miserable community. Some I know think they have the best way of living that is possible for inner peace and integrity. They sure don't worry about wrinkles or much else, either. But the concept of personal freedoms that you might take for granted, and enjoy every day, is not really evident in Amish operation.

Thanks for sharing JJ. That was really quite interesting.

"and yet pay every tax to our government."

Yes, they pay taxes, but they don't believe in insurance, so they are exempt from having social security and medicare withheld from their paycheck(what most of us refer to as taxes).

Thus, the Amish who employ their own family members within their business (woodworking, construction, etc...) does NOT have to pay for social security, medicare, state & federal unemployment compensation funds, and worker's compensation. This means that the Amish can offer their product/service at 20-30% below the "English" cost.

I have seen many "English" contractors lose jobs to the Amish because the Amish can afford to come in way below bid. Is this fair?

Robyn >-

So rightly said. Their religious beliefs give them all kinds of "outs" and not just in the tax field, although they do pay for schools and a lot of other things that they absolutely do not use. Acutally, they almost always take less from government than they give back. I can't say that for a whole lot of other special interest groups. That is the reality. They have even returned Red Cross money during tornado disasters. I know that is true.

You want everything to be "FAIR". Business competition is never experienced on completely level playing fields. Especially now with globilization, government regulation can and does kill small business here at home in the USA. How do you think Jack Binion feels about the Indian casinos?

There are a whole lot of other issues beyond the woodworking ones. Physical abuse can be a dictate of their instruction. Where do child labor laws enter into the picture? Or vacination requirements for diary workers? See what I mean.

I only posted as so many seem to be intrigued by the Amish. One reason is they see some kindness and peace, but also a belief system which does not champion the individual in any way. And that is almost 180 degrees from the average American outlook. For instance, children would never ever brag about being the "best" in sports, or in almost anything. They get lots of attention and are truly "listened to" because of no tv/ radio etc. BUT they are not "the center" of attention. EVER.

JJ5, having lived in California all my life I really have do not have any knowledge of the Amish except the bit that I have studied in school, read, and few movies and Fodors.

Are the Amish basically happy in your opinion?

It seems as though the women and perhaps the children do not have a life I would want. But again I really do not feel that I have enough information.

Your post were very interesting to me.

But know I am wondering what your thoughts are regarding the women and children of the Amish community.

If you would care to comment I would be most interested. Thank you

I must say, that I am glad to be part of this thread and the direction it has taken. Really thought provoking. We should have more discussions like this on a forum filled with educated travelers. Thanks for so many interesting responses.

JJ5, thanks for some eye opening posts for those of us who knew so little about the Amish.

Since we have a large Amish population in my area, our local newspaper, the Press Enterprise, features a column every Wednesday titled "The Amish Cook" - www.theamishcook.com - click on the left hand side under Main Menu.

It is a column that appears in over 100 newspapers and is written by Lovina Eicher, who is Old Order Amish. She hand-writes her column from her Michigan home. Lovina, age 33 inherited the column from her mother, Elizabeth, who penned it from 1991 through 2002.

The column provides an interesting peek into the simple, yet hard communal life, of the Amish folk. Peace.

Robyn

Sorry, folks.

I tried to answer your questions a couple of times, and so far Fodors won't let met post on this. Maybe it's my end. This is just to test.

JJ%, that's just a glitch, it happens to most of us try again.

It's hard for me to answer in a short format. Are they happy? I'll try, but this is only MY opinion.

Some seem very happy, yet some of them are probably not as happy as they may appear to be. It can't make you very happy to have prolapse or incontinence from a young age because of childbirth.
Self-help is the operative way, you see. You get aid from the other women- but to get any long-term issue "fixed" (not just physical, but say an abusive family member) you may end up having to consult with elders etc. Lots probably just don't. The Amish do NOT TAKE Social Sec. payments, national medical expense compensations, or personal life/property insurance or their payoffs. I do understand the core value of utter independence, as I come from a culture that has those same types of ideals. Also that the sunup to sundown hard physical work one does, has its own rewards, as it has its own penalties. AND that goes for both genders.

What gets to me is that I don't want to admit it, but the specific and rigid gender role assignments/structure actually seem to make for a stronger BOND among the women- by far stronger than what most American women have. There is no need to self-advertise their own worth. It exists within their woman's role. They don't need to be swans, or madeover or to use any other crutches or chemicals to aid in their self-esteem being "fixed." Central worth is not measured in a pretty face or neat figure. Diets are a joke to them. That I admire tremendously and try to emulate. I think, even before the sales with the English, the Amish women knew they were worth their weight in $$$. Absolutely- they are a center and economic necessity for their families. And they don't worry about wrinkles or any other thing in that type of category. Hard to admit all this because my younger self would choke me. I worked -and walked the walk with issues that are totally opposed to this. Yet I can see the support/bond that the Amish women operate in and where it originates.

It's just that not every woman alive fits that basic women's agenda. Same goes for men. Not fitting ends up being hard on the individual and the family he/she leaves. Also,what if you want to be a marine biologist? Ha-Ha!

But you probably will not want to be, for the most part, because you saw such strong role models for your own sex. And if they are good in your home and church, you want to be just like them. Amish pick their leaders by "straw" or some other random thing, I've forgotten exactly the process. Men are the leaders, of course. But even then, the leadership seems to be in a style that doesn't center on individual personality or goals.

Too much information, I know. But for a "simple" life- it is really a lot more complex than it seems. If you are horrified at kids not getting orthodontic work done, you might think a lot of what goes on with the Amish: work / school etc. would be in a child abuse category. But these kids seems far more content to me, and don't feel that way at all.

My opinion only: the kids are probably much happier than a lot of kids I know. But parents?? I don't know- because bodies can age pretty fast working so hard. Let's say, I don't think that they are much LESS happy than the average American. I would not say that they were happier. You more or less make your own happiness as an adult.

Some of the best hours of my life were spent baking, learning about gardens and seeds and just doing arts and crafts with Amish women. But I am a feminist- and don't care about what that label means to anyone, but I just don't like the lack of encouragement for formal education because there is just so MUCH out there now to know.

If you do go visit the Amish in their homes or in their stores, know this. They are all individuals as we all are, but if you have been introduced and are talking awhile- they will probably not mind you asking about their religion or traditions (even very specific and nosy questions), but I do think that they hate the stare. You all know what the stare is.

Thank you so much, JJ5, I was always curious about them and you filled a gap, but never wanted to be Amish nor any other than my Naturalist beliefs.
I'd like more postings on other beliefs and ways of life to make us help one another to be more tolorant.

JJ5, thank you very much for taking the time to explain the lifestyles of the Amish and to answer my questions.

It is not a life I would want, but I do understand what you said.

Fodors can be a wealth of information thanks to postors like you that are generous enough to share you knowledge.

Have a good weekend.

I would add that irresponsible auto drivers are a big problem for the Amish. Every year suburban Richard Petty Juniors senselessly smash up the Amish in their buggies, killing quite a few of them, many of them children.

Have a good weekend also. Watch out for all those little trick or treaters out there.

And thanks for asking, as I notice Amish are starting to go to the "big cities" to sightsee a bit. The more people who know that they are not going to a costume ball, the better.

An Amish boy and his father were visiting a shopping mall. They were amazed by almost everything they saw, but especially by two shiny, silver walls that could move apart and back together again. The boy asked his father, "What is this, Father?" The father responded, "Son, I have never seen anything like this in my life; I don't know what it is!"

While the boy and his father were watching wide-eyed, an old lady in a wheel chair rolled up to the moving walls and pressed a button. The walls opened and the lady rolled between them into a small room. The walls closed and the boy and his father watched small circles of lights with numbers above the walls light up.

They continued to watch the circles light up in the reverse direction. The walls opened up again and a beautiful 24 year old woman stepped out.

Smiling, the father turned to his son and said, "Go get your mother."

What a lot of thoughtful posts on this thread.

The wonderful thing about the US is that, insofar as religion is concerned (and providing one does not hurt others), you can do your own thing insofar as your belief system is concerned. It is what makes America great!

JJ5, you did a great job explaining the Amish lifestyle. I live near Robyn (aka Artstuff), in an Amish dominated valley of dairy farms.

Many "Englishers" (Amish name for us) were very jealous of these kind, peaceful people when they first started moving here 25 years ago. Most have come to our valley from Lancaster, PA and are Old Order Amish.

The problem was that the Amish came and purchased existing dairy farms (with cash) and made them profitable again.

Our home's property borders 2 very productive and completely "machine free" farms. My neighbors are wonderful and hard working. On the left side of my house is the Amish one room school where children from grade K - 8 attend. My neighbors are very much "Old Order", wearing only black, white, purple and blue.

I will not go so far as to give directions here because, quite frankly we like the quiet that is not at all the tacky tourist area of Lancaster.

Our Amish, although mostly farmers, do have a harness store where I can by all sorts of household goods from scrub brushes to socks to brooms to fly catchers. I can buy my eggs up the road and of course veggies and plants and flowers in season.

In the proper setting and the right understanding it's an attractive lifestyle to those of us that have hectic jobs and are constantly on the go!

LilyLace and all:

I really appreciate the "listen" also. During my years in Michigan/ Indiana I have tried so hard to stop the misconceptions in order that the hard feelings I hear now and again, can be sort of nipped in the bud. The more people who don't feel threatened, the better. They aren't trying to convert, and I am so much trying to keep knowledge alive about some of the old ways of doing things. That goes for all kinds of cultures.

We also, do not advertise our "areas" because we would rather keep the balance of tourism and development as it is. I am now facing a long fight that has just started (and I hope lasts for at least 10 years)against a core of about 20 families (they don't even live there at least 2/3rds of the year)concerning massive residential sewer projects. It will REALLY hurt some Amish but even more a large settlement of special needs people who live very simply in this same area. They will never be able to handle the assessments. Lake balance is only affected by agricultural fertilizer run off, and even that is very minimal and has nothing to do with any of them. In fact, it was worse 15 to 20 years ago. It is state owned wetlands by more than 2/3rds. Now somebody with money and pull doesn't want to deal with a septic tank or field for his/her vacation home. Hope they don't win in the long run.

Also hope your area's balance works well for everybody, for as long as possible.

ttt & good example of a travel thread...