What's a reasonable tip?
Aug 12th, 2003, 06:03 PM
#21
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I tip 20% of the whole bill for good service, and maybe I have been lucky, but I usually seem to get good service. I have only encountered the pre-added tip in Miami, when I have to say I found it annoying--you just don't eexpect it for a party of 2!--or in some establishments for larger (6+) parties. This seems to be especially true in fine dining establishments, where I have had pre-added gratuities of 16% to 18%, which is self-defeating in my case because I would have tipped more if left to my own devices.
I must say that for a REALLY large group, like the 24 mentioned, I would certainly expect an added-on service charge, and only wish the restaurant where I worked one summer during college had followed the practice! At the bustling downtown Chicago place where I worked lunches, large office groups were not uncommon, and everyone must have assumed "someone else" was tipping, because I was stiffed more than once by groups of 10-12 diners after I had really worked hard to attend to their needs. And large parties do place quite a drag on the server who also has to attend to other tables!
I must say that for a REALLY large group, like the 24 mentioned, I would certainly expect an added-on service charge, and only wish the restaurant where I worked one summer during college had followed the practice! At the bustling downtown Chicago place where I worked lunches, large office groups were not uncommon, and everyone must have assumed "someone else" was tipping, because I was stiffed more than once by groups of 10-12 diners after I had really worked hard to attend to their needs. And large parties do place quite a drag on the server who also has to attend to other tables!
Aug 12th, 2003, 06:59 PM
#22
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Pumblechook, I'm intriqued by the idea that you would apparently be happier if all the food costs in the US were 15% higher. That way you wouldn't have to tip, but you'd still be paying the same amount, and letting the restaurant pay all their waiters a good salary rather than letting customers "reward" better servers with larger tips. I guess that would make you happier?? Apparently you fail to realize that different countries do things different ways. If you truly believe that everything should be done the way it is back home, then you probably should not be traveling.
I hate the fact that I can't get tap water with my meal in Italy, but that doesn't mean I resent them because they don't serve tap water like they do at home. And I suppose you would resent a Japanese restaurant because they only bring chopsticks, when back home you'd get a fork? Just because Australian restaurants add in the full cost of employing their staff in their meals, doesn't mean it's going to work that way in other countries. It really is that simple!!!!
I hate the fact that I can't get tap water with my meal in Italy, but that doesn't mean I resent them because they don't serve tap water like they do at home. And I suppose you would resent a Japanese restaurant because they only bring chopsticks, when back home you'd get a fork? Just because Australian restaurants add in the full cost of employing their staff in their meals, doesn't mean it's going to work that way in other countries. It really is that simple!!!!
Aug 12th, 2003, 07:35 PM
#23
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Hi Patrick, Yes I would be happier if the impact of removing tipping was that all food costs went up by 15% because it would remove the ambiguity that exists at the moment. Service charges (as opposed to rewarding good service with a tip) are vague, artificial costs imposed by scumbag employers who don't want to pay their workers a living wage.
Mind you, not all food costs would go up by 15% - only the cost of food in restaurants. I don't recall having to slip the checkout girl at the supermarket a couple of bucks to get her to do her job.
If the cost of restaurant dining went up by 15% it wouldn't bother me at all. It would be cost neutral from my point of view (I didn't say I don't tip, I just resent the expectation). It would also help get rid of a system that doesn't serve anyone except the employers who don't want to pay a decent wage.
I'm not looking to get into a slanging match and I'm not suggesting that everyone should do things the way we do them in Australia. I'm just expressing an opinion and that is "enforced, or expected, tipping really sucks", no matter what country it's in.
Mind you, not all food costs would go up by 15% - only the cost of food in restaurants. I don't recall having to slip the checkout girl at the supermarket a couple of bucks to get her to do her job.
If the cost of restaurant dining went up by 15% it wouldn't bother me at all. It would be cost neutral from my point of view (I didn't say I don't tip, I just resent the expectation). It would also help get rid of a system that doesn't serve anyone except the employers who don't want to pay a decent wage.
I'm not looking to get into a slanging match and I'm not suggesting that everyone should do things the way we do them in Australia. I'm just expressing an opinion and that is "enforced, or expected, tipping really sucks", no matter what country it's in.
Aug 12th, 2003, 07:46 PM
#24
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OK, and yes of course, I was only talking about restaurant food costs, not grocery costs.
But since we are talking about how "foreigners" dislike certain customs, this brings to mind one of the things many Americans dislike about service in Europe (where you don't tip for good service normally). And that is that the service is often very slow, and it is often next to impossible to get a check, pay a bill, or have a server come to check on your meal once it has been served. One of the "benefits" of the US tipping custom is that it really does encourage servers to give better service since they know they are likely to make more money if they make their customers happy. Pay all waiters the same standard wage and any extra service is certain to go out the window just as it often does in countries where there is little or no tipping, or at least where the server's income isn't dependent upon his tips.
But since we are talking about how "foreigners" dislike certain customs, this brings to mind one of the things many Americans dislike about service in Europe (where you don't tip for good service normally). And that is that the service is often very slow, and it is often next to impossible to get a check, pay a bill, or have a server come to check on your meal once it has been served. One of the "benefits" of the US tipping custom is that it really does encourage servers to give better service since they know they are likely to make more money if they make their customers happy. Pay all waiters the same standard wage and any extra service is certain to go out the window just as it often does in countries where there is little or no tipping, or at least where the server's income isn't dependent upon his tips.
Aug 12th, 2003, 07:58 PM
#25
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I take your point and putting my bolshie hat on I would say it's a shame that tipping has become as institutionalised as it has. The thing that really gets under my skin though is the spread of tipping to all service industries. Life would be a lot simpler if employers and governments stuck to the "a decent day's pay for a decent day's work" principle.
Besides. it's too confusing for a simple-minded tourist like me to know what the acceptable tip level is for each industry. I now know it's about 15% for a waiter in the US but what about the red cap, the hotel valet, the doorman, the taxi driver, the tour guide, the tour bus driver, yada yada yada. Maybe someone should put out a guide?
I honestly believe that many foreigners visiting America are overawed by the amount of tipping expected. One reaction to that is to say "Bugger it, I'm not tipping anyone."
Besides. it's too confusing for a simple-minded tourist like me to know what the acceptable tip level is for each industry. I now know it's about 15% for a waiter in the US but what about the red cap, the hotel valet, the doorman, the taxi driver, the tour guide, the tour bus driver, yada yada yada. Maybe someone should put out a guide?
I honestly believe that many foreigners visiting America are overawed by the amount of tipping expected. One reaction to that is to say "Bugger it, I'm not tipping anyone."
Aug 12th, 2003, 08:00 PM
#26
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Patrick, you've completely missed Pumblechook's point here. He states that he is happy to tip when deserved, but not when it isn't...
He also states (and to my observation, accurately so) that many in the US of A expect gratuities all the while behaving as though they couldn't be less interested in serving you, all the while being disgusted with anyone who declines to "reward" them.
I doubt there is anyone on the planet not inclined to "show their appreciation" when the service/attention/assistance they've received is worthy of same.
The lack of the availability of tap water in Italy is not the fault of the server, for heavens sake! Perhaps you would deprive your server of a gratuity of the food is terrible, even though it was not prepared by them?
It is utterly incomprehensive that you state that restaurants should "let customers reward the 'better servers' with larger tips". Think about it. That is positively ludicrous! No restaurant should employ less than "better servers" - you think?
He also states (and to my observation, accurately so) that many in the US of A expect gratuities all the while behaving as though they couldn't be less interested in serving you, all the while being disgusted with anyone who declines to "reward" them.
I doubt there is anyone on the planet not inclined to "show their appreciation" when the service/attention/assistance they've received is worthy of same.
The lack of the availability of tap water in Italy is not the fault of the server, for heavens sake! Perhaps you would deprive your server of a gratuity of the food is terrible, even though it was not prepared by them?
It is utterly incomprehensive that you state that restaurants should "let customers reward the 'better servers' with larger tips". Think about it. That is positively ludicrous! No restaurant should employ less than "better servers" - you think?
Aug 13th, 2003, 12:41 AM
#27
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"I doubt there is anyone on the planet not inclined to "show their appreciation" when the service/attention/assistance they've received is worthy of same."
You've got to be kidding, right? And you call Patrick ludicrous!
You've got to be kidding, right? And you call Patrick ludicrous!
Aug 13th, 2003, 05:52 AM
#28
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IMHO, tipping as a "general" rule on my part is 15-20% pre tax amount.Depending how many we are,how many drinks,how long we are there,etc etc....Since I too have "slung hash",I always remember that the waitron will "tip out" the bartender 10-15% of his/her tips for the night...So I generally will add that amount soz the BT gets his share too.
Aug 13th, 2003, 06:20 AM
#29
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Wow is it hard to be understood here. I wasn't saying "many Americans dislike European customs". How out of context can you get? I was saying that one custom Americans dislike is not being able to pay their bill when they want in Europe. That's all -- and it is a fact of life!! Most of us European travelers probably prefer the European eating customs, but that is one thing that many posters over at the other forum DO complain about. Take away any "reward" system for good servers in the US and you will find swarms of people complaining even more than now about the lack of good (often substituting "quick") service.
And I suggest you reread your post, djkbooks. Talk about ludicrous! "No restaurant should employ less than better servers" you say. I agree they shouldn't hire poor servers. But if you truly think that there is no such thing as a "better" server than others in any restaurant in the world, you must not get out much. There is no way I will believe that all servers are exactly equal in their skills and practices. The word "better" is not the same as the word "good". And if you really believe that working to get better tips doesn't make some waiters give "better" service than others, you are simply being naive!
On the other hand, I'll be the first to admit that tipping is out of hand here. And I'm one of those that is equally confused about some tips. When arriving at a large hotel, how many valet parkers,captains of handling the luggage, individuals moving the luggage from the car to the curb, another moving it to the lobby, and a third bringing it to the room should we be expected to tip??
And I suggest you reread your post, djkbooks. Talk about ludicrous! "No restaurant should employ less than better servers" you say. I agree they shouldn't hire poor servers. But if you truly think that there is no such thing as a "better" server than others in any restaurant in the world, you must not get out much. There is no way I will believe that all servers are exactly equal in their skills and practices. The word "better" is not the same as the word "good". And if you really believe that working to get better tips doesn't make some waiters give "better" service than others, you are simply being naive!
On the other hand, I'll be the first to admit that tipping is out of hand here. And I'm one of those that is equally confused about some tips. When arriving at a large hotel, how many valet parkers,captains of handling the luggage, individuals moving the luggage from the car to the curb, another moving it to the lobby, and a third bringing it to the room should we be expected to tip??
Aug 13th, 2003, 06:36 AM
#30
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<.. service in Europe (where you don't tip for good service normally) ..>
Seemed to me most EU restaurants automatically added a service charge to which a minor amount may be left as an extra if service was good - which is perhaps one reason europeans don't tip well in Florida as someone mentioned, they don't look closely at the detail in the check & just assume there's 10% in there for service charge.
Seemed to me most EU restaurants automatically added a service charge to which a minor amount may be left as an extra if service was good - which is perhaps one reason europeans don't tip well in Florida as someone mentioned, they don't look closely at the detail in the check & just assume there's 10% in there for service charge.
Aug 13th, 2003, 06:40 AM
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Aug 13th, 2003, 06:51 AM
#32
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Here is a better link in my opinion (and yes I believe in dancing with who brings ya!)
http://www.fodors.com/features/nfdis...124_stt_tg_usa
http://www.fodors.com/features/nfdis...124_stt_tg_usa
Aug 13th, 2003, 07:00 AM
#33
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Joan: When you suggest that maybe the "host" had been informed - I was the host, and I was not informed.
Seamus: Your description fits exactly my image of good service.
Pumblechook: I agree with you 100%.
To me, my tip is my thank you to the servicer for a job well done. It is not intended to be wage supplement or, God forbid, wage replacement. The excuse that the wait staff "depends" on their tips is not acceptable. There are plenty of lowly paid people who get NO tips at all.
I usually leave a few small bills in a hotel room when I vacate the room - this is for the hard-working person whom I never see who has given me a clean room - yes, the hotel cleaning woman. I may be wrong, but the cleaning woman probably needs her small tip more than those wait people. And I'm not wrong on this, the cleaning woman has worked MUCH harder than any wait person.
Dining out should be a pleasurable experience. When the wait person turns out to be a chucklehead, it ruins the evening. Why should I overly thank someone for ruining my evening? 15% is more than adequate for a chucklehead, even if the 15% has to be shared. The unfortunate thing about wait people in the US is that they are usually just taking this as a temporary position on their way to "something better" - there is generally no professionalism here - as there is in Europe.
A tip, whatever the amount, should be VOLUNTARY, when it is made "nonnegotiable" or "obligatory", then this means that I will - just as VOLUNTARILY - take my business elsewhere. Hopefully, to a much more pleasurable diining experience
Seamus: Your description fits exactly my image of good service.
Pumblechook: I agree with you 100%.
To me, my tip is my thank you to the servicer for a job well done. It is not intended to be wage supplement or, God forbid, wage replacement. The excuse that the wait staff "depends" on their tips is not acceptable. There are plenty of lowly paid people who get NO tips at all.
I usually leave a few small bills in a hotel room when I vacate the room - this is for the hard-working person whom I never see who has given me a clean room - yes, the hotel cleaning woman. I may be wrong, but the cleaning woman probably needs her small tip more than those wait people. And I'm not wrong on this, the cleaning woman has worked MUCH harder than any wait person.
Dining out should be a pleasurable experience. When the wait person turns out to be a chucklehead, it ruins the evening. Why should I overly thank someone for ruining my evening? 15% is more than adequate for a chucklehead, even if the 15% has to be shared. The unfortunate thing about wait people in the US is that they are usually just taking this as a temporary position on their way to "something better" - there is generally no professionalism here - as there is in Europe.
A tip, whatever the amount, should be VOLUNTARY, when it is made "nonnegotiable" or "obligatory", then this means that I will - just as VOLUNTARILY - take my business elsewhere. Hopefully, to a much more pleasurable diining experience
Aug 13th, 2003, 07:18 AM
#34
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Jason, actually, the argument that servers depend on tips is acceptable. As it has been stated earlier, they are paid below minimum wage. That's just how it is done here. While I don't agree with it, there is an expectation to tip 15% as long as they do their job. By not tipping, you are only hurting the server(s), no one else.
Like some others have said, I would personally like to see the food prices include service charges for the wait staff. However, that seems unlikely here, so you tip. The one positive of you doing the tipping is you get to decide how much you pay for the service you received.
Like some others have said, I would personally like to see the food prices include service charges for the wait staff. However, that seems unlikely here, so you tip. The one positive of you doing the tipping is you get to decide how much you pay for the service you received.
Aug 13th, 2003, 08:39 AM
#35
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Jason, you are being naive if you think their tips are not the major part of a server's income. When I was a waitperson, I think I made $1.52 an hour, and totally depended on the tips to arrive at anything approaching even minimum wages--this may be wrong, but it seems to be how it is done in the US.
If you were hosting 24 people, perhaps you would voluntarily have left the usual 15%, but during my time as a server, big groups were often just chipping in on the bill, and NO ONE left much of anything toward the tip, and the service was not the problem!
If you were hosting 24 people, perhaps you would voluntarily have left the usual 15%, but during my time as a server, big groups were often just chipping in on the bill, and NO ONE left much of anything toward the tip, and the service was not the problem!
Aug 13th, 2003, 09:40 AM
#36
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Some points I wanted to make after reading thru this thread:
I waited tables for many years in Florida and Canadians and British were the worst tippers by far!!
Germans and French were not only the kindest but the best tippers outside of Americans.
Please always tip on tax because the gov't will tax the server on the FULL amount of their total sales, including tax. Every time you don't tip on the total amount that much more comes out of the waiters pocket.
If you get bad service, tip at least 10% AND TELL THE MANAGER! Everyone has bad days. Too many bad days and then the manager can make a staffing change, but simply not tipping will not alert anyone there is a problem, it just perpetuates it!
It may not be fair and you may not agree with tipping practices. You might be able to sit high and mighty saying that you don't feel the need to pay the wages of personnel that you didn't hire. However, to punish the server because you don't agree with tipping practices is ridiculous. The individual server did not institute tipping practices nor can he/she change them to better suit your liking.
If everyone in the US was required to wait tables for one month, no one would ever get a bad tip again AND every diner would be well behaved. I could tell stories that you wouldn't believe!! Suffice to say that servers put up with a tremendous amount of abuse not only from the customers but from the cooks and from the managers.
It's a really sucky job with few benifits, a miserable minimum wage, and no job security.
I waited tables for many years in Florida and Canadians and British were the worst tippers by far!!
Germans and French were not only the kindest but the best tippers outside of Americans.
Please always tip on tax because the gov't will tax the server on the FULL amount of their total sales, including tax. Every time you don't tip on the total amount that much more comes out of the waiters pocket.
If you get bad service, tip at least 10% AND TELL THE MANAGER! Everyone has bad days. Too many bad days and then the manager can make a staffing change, but simply not tipping will not alert anyone there is a problem, it just perpetuates it!
It may not be fair and you may not agree with tipping practices. You might be able to sit high and mighty saying that you don't feel the need to pay the wages of personnel that you didn't hire. However, to punish the server because you don't agree with tipping practices is ridiculous. The individual server did not institute tipping practices nor can he/she change them to better suit your liking.
If everyone in the US was required to wait tables for one month, no one would ever get a bad tip again AND every diner would be well behaved. I could tell stories that you wouldn't believe!! Suffice to say that servers put up with a tremendous amount of abuse not only from the customers but from the cooks and from the managers.
It's a really sucky job with few benifits, a miserable minimum wage, and no job security.
Aug 13th, 2003, 10:41 AM
#37
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Irishdame wrote:
"Please always tip on tax because the gov't will tax the server on the FULL amount of their total sales, including tax"
Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!
A server is NOT taxed for tips they didn't receive. If your employer says you must be, then s/he better seek better advice from tax advisors.
http://ftp.fedworld.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1244.pdf
http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/page/0,...208,00.html#T3
Not only do you not report nor pay for tips you didn't receive, but you deduct from tips reported those tips you gave to others (busboy, bartender)
btw, I've worked "the floor", been hotel & restaurant controller, assistant manager, & now write accounting software used in restaurants & country clubs. Yes, serving is hard. So is my job, and sometimes the customer doesn't thank me, and sometimes doesn't pay me, which is usually easier to write off than to sue for. Things are tough all over and anyone not satisfied with their situation has the same choice: move!
"Please always tip on tax because the gov't will tax the server on the FULL amount of their total sales, including tax"
Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!
A server is NOT taxed for tips they didn't receive. If your employer says you must be, then s/he better seek better advice from tax advisors.
http://ftp.fedworld.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1244.pdf
http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/page/0,...208,00.html#T3
Not only do you not report nor pay for tips you didn't receive, but you deduct from tips reported those tips you gave to others (busboy, bartender)
btw, I've worked "the floor", been hotel & restaurant controller, assistant manager, & now write accounting software used in restaurants & country clubs. Yes, serving is hard. So is my job, and sometimes the customer doesn't thank me, and sometimes doesn't pay me, which is usually easier to write off than to sue for. Things are tough all over and anyone not satisfied with their situation has the same choice: move!
Aug 13th, 2003, 11:25 AM
#39
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For a large party I can see why they add an automatic gratuity (I believe it should be adjustable though), I would have expected that, and even find it preferable. In many cases, one person isn't paying the entire bill but rather everyone is 'chipping in'. In these situations, almost inevitably you will have 1 or 2 people who do not include an adequate tip or include no tip at all. Even if everyone else leaves an adequate tip, it can significantly impact the overall percentage of the tip. I have on many occasions, as I'm sure others here have as well, put in more than my share to offset those that didn't tip. It's frustrating but at the same time you don't really want to say anything. So if they include the tip, it just makes it easier and you're not put in this situation.
