Two very bad restaurant experiences
Jun 25th, 2001, 09:32 AM
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
Two very bad restaurant experiences
My husband and I live near Boston and eat out often. We recently had two very bad dining experiences I wanted to share.
First, we ate at Saffron on Newbury Street with friends. It was over-priced - even for its location. More importantly, we have never had such BAD service in our lives. Long waits for any service of any drink, course or even the check, cold food, and management which ignored our requests for assistance. To top it off, the restaurant was taking publicity photos that night. No fewer than 150 flashes went off in the middle of dinner.
Secondly, we experinced the biggest rip off in Boston/Brookline at Zaftig's deli. Zagats gives this place a good review. However, be warned that the sandwiches, which are by no means generously sized, cost $10.00 on average. They come with a scoop of cold slaw or potato salad - neither of which was good. I felt completely ripped off and felt I could have gotten a better meal for less at Friendly's.
First, we ate at Saffron on Newbury Street with friends. It was over-priced - even for its location. More importantly, we have never had such BAD service in our lives. Long waits for any service of any drink, course or even the check, cold food, and management which ignored our requests for assistance. To top it off, the restaurant was taking publicity photos that night. No fewer than 150 flashes went off in the middle of dinner.
Secondly, we experinced the biggest rip off in Boston/Brookline at Zaftig's deli. Zagats gives this place a good review. However, be warned that the sandwiches, which are by no means generously sized, cost $10.00 on average. They come with a scoop of cold slaw or potato salad - neither of which was good. I felt completely ripped off and felt I could have gotten a better meal for less at Friendly's.
Jun 25th, 2001, 11:08 AM
#3
Guest
Posts: n/a
Do not know the first restaurant you talked about on Newbury
Street, but am quite familiar with Zaftig's.. As a Bostonian I must say that NY delicatassen is far superior, but you would pay two or three times as much..then again if you had gone to Rubin's a further bit down on Harvard Street you would have gotten a huge Kosher deli sandwich. and it would have been overstuffed.. There is also the B & D I think on Beacon Street. Unfortunately, I think Zaftig's is as good as it gets..and they aren't bad, unless your from New York or New Jersey..
Street, but am quite familiar with Zaftig's.. As a Bostonian I must say that NY delicatassen is far superior, but you would pay two or three times as much..then again if you had gone to Rubin's a further bit down on Harvard Street you would have gotten a huge Kosher deli sandwich. and it would have been overstuffed.. There is also the B & D I think on Beacon Street. Unfortunately, I think Zaftig's is as good as it gets..and they aren't bad, unless your from New York or New Jersey..
Jun 25th, 2001, 11:21 AM
#4
Guest
Posts: n/a
Kathy, you raise a good question: how do we get Zagats to pay attention when we write about a bad restaurant, one they recommend as being good?
It seems impossible for Zagat to pay attention and change their red booklet. I have names of a number of restaurants that are overrated by Zagats, which were horrible experiences ... I could readily understand Kathy's frustration about their bad experience. I've written to Zagats in the past, but they never responded. From Frommers, I never expect anything (they one time placed Hooters under "Dining Experience") ... but Zagats is supposed to have all these hot shot reviewers who each supposedly eat out 10,000 times a year. Any ideas how we get the Zagats ear open? Ciao
It seems impossible for Zagat to pay attention and change their red booklet. I have names of a number of restaurants that are overrated by Zagats, which were horrible experiences ... I could readily understand Kathy's frustration about their bad experience. I've written to Zagats in the past, but they never responded. From Frommers, I never expect anything (they one time placed Hooters under "Dining Experience") ... but Zagats is supposed to have all these hot shot reviewers who each supposedly eat out 10,000 times a year. Any ideas how we get the Zagats ear open? Ciao
Jun 25th, 2001, 12:02 PM
#6
Guest
Posts: n/a
We actually went to Zaftigs because of the Zagat review. For the most part their ratings are fairly on point, but, I agree, we also have our list of "way off" ratings.
I actually have ranted (and raved from time to time)on Fodors site about a few restaurants, but don't know if the Fodors folks look at them.
I actually have ranted (and raved from time to time)on Fodors site about a few restaurants, but don't know if the Fodors folks look at them.
Jun 25th, 2001, 12:21 PM
#7
Guest
Posts: n/a
I suppose you are suggesting that Zagats can effectively separate itself from its volunteer reviewers. I suppose you can make that argument, and yes, it is reasonable.
But consider a different perspective for a moment: As Z will tell you in their booklet, a popular restaurant might be visited by over 2,000-4,000 reviewers, many offering a comment as well as a score. I've completed Z's surveys, so I know what they ask you for. I suppose you know who then takes those many, many indiviudal impressions, selects the highpoints and gives the Zagat reader an overall impression.
I can hear you saying but this is merely a pass-through by Zagats, and if you view it that way, fine with me. But the way the comments are selected, then shown in very abbreviated form suggests to me there is some role unknown, unaccounted for by the Zagat staff in the assessment process.
I know this as well ... I have yet to see Zagats telling its reviewers in the yearly surveys (and Zagats knows who all these people are) to watch particular restaurants more carefully because there have been written complaints differing from the published impressions.
My point was how do we gain Zagat's ear, to get these non-survey statements into the process. People who fill out the survey may have little if any actual expertise or awareness ... they may be giving solely uniformed personal impressions. I'd like to understand how Zagats may wish to counterbalance this by listening to people who take the time to write and document ... information probably far more important and valuable to Zagats in the long run ... it goes to reliability, and over time, the lack of this value will undermine Zagats, and ultimately make it vulnerable to other restaurant review sources. In any event, I've yet to see an answer to my question. The folks who ate in Boston raise an important issue for those of us who travel a lot. Ciao
But consider a different perspective for a moment: As Z will tell you in their booklet, a popular restaurant might be visited by over 2,000-4,000 reviewers, many offering a comment as well as a score. I've completed Z's surveys, so I know what they ask you for. I suppose you know who then takes those many, many indiviudal impressions, selects the highpoints and gives the Zagat reader an overall impression.
I can hear you saying but this is merely a pass-through by Zagats, and if you view it that way, fine with me. But the way the comments are selected, then shown in very abbreviated form suggests to me there is some role unknown, unaccounted for by the Zagat staff in the assessment process.
I know this as well ... I have yet to see Zagats telling its reviewers in the yearly surveys (and Zagats knows who all these people are) to watch particular restaurants more carefully because there have been written complaints differing from the published impressions.
My point was how do we gain Zagat's ear, to get these non-survey statements into the process. People who fill out the survey may have little if any actual expertise or awareness ... they may be giving solely uniformed personal impressions. I'd like to understand how Zagats may wish to counterbalance this by listening to people who take the time to write and document ... information probably far more important and valuable to Zagats in the long run ... it goes to reliability, and over time, the lack of this value will undermine Zagats, and ultimately make it vulnerable to other restaurant review sources. In any event, I've yet to see an answer to my question. The folks who ate in Boston raise an important issue for those of us who travel a lot. Ciao
Jun 25th, 2001, 12:33 PM
#8
Guest
Posts: n/a
I find Zagat's comments section says a lot more in some ways than its ratings. Even though the ratings in my experience have been pretty dead-on, they always try to have a few quotes "the fish is tasty but possibly not worth the money", "the decor could use a little improvement", etc... Generally speaking, I find you'll get some ûber-particular food snobs who will bring ratings down and you'll get undiscerning types and partial parties who will bring ratings up. I doubt the undiscerning sorts are particularly likely to fill in the survey. So when you review a restaurant in Zagats, write a little tidbit in the comments. With enough comments of the kind about restaurant XXX, I suspect Zagat's attention will be gained.
Jun 25th, 2001, 01:02 PM
#9
Guest
Posts: n/a
I have the Zagat NYC 2000 booklet before me, and it suggests in several places that we are to BELIEVE what is said about the restaurants. Nina and Tn Zagat's statement up front boasts their large number of reviewers and annual survey, and concludes that "we think we have achieved a uniquely current and RELIABLE guide." Thus, one may rely upon what one reads in the red booklet ... is that a fair interpretation? Why esle would you buy the guide? Zagats then goes on to say that their surveyors are a diverse group in every respect except one - "they are food lovers all." Zagats is telling you that all these people share a special passion. The Zagat statement then goes on to speak about the number of Zagat lists that have been prepared "to help to guide you to NYC's best meals and best buys." I find it hard to accept that Zagat is simply regurgitating what comes off the thousands of surveys. But then Zagat also tells you that if you wish to be a reviewer, you merely need to send in a SSA envelop. And if you complete a survey you receive a free Zagats booklet. So, now we see there really is no vetting process ... Zagats is assuming, and telling us, that all the surveyors are food lovers. If you the readers assume this also means the surveyors are knoweldgeable, all the better for Zagats. It goes to to the image of reliablity. Zagats then tells us they want our criticisms, that they are "solicited." Zagats finally gives us tips about what to do if we run into a problem at a restaurant, and assures us that "... inevitably, we also hear about problems." What Zagats does is not clear. If you are suggesting a Buyer Beware" caveat for Zagats, but hold Fodors to a stricter standard when it comes to a restaurant review, you are standing logic on its head. I'd be interested in what others have to say. But my question remains: how do we get Zagat to at least assess places that deserve special attention because people write to Zagats and trash them? Ciao
Jun 25th, 2001, 01:26 PM
#10
Guest
Posts: n/a
L's assessment of the Zagat reviewing policy is on the mark. I, too, was a "reviewer," but stopped because I didn't feel like spending the time doing it! So, I now buy my copy each year!
Common sense would tell me that if Zagat's got a large number of complaints about a restaurant that its reviewers overwhelmingly raved about, Zagat's would weigh that into its final rating.
Common sense would tell me that if Zagat's got a large number of complaints about a restaurant that its reviewers overwhelmingly raved about, Zagat's would weigh that into its final rating.
Jun 25th, 2001, 04:50 PM
#12
Guest
Posts: n/a
I appreciate your comments "L".
They are reasonable and well thought out.
Zagat's hypothesis is that if they amass a large sample of surveys, the truth will emerge. It's the bell curve hypothesis. Outliers are to be ignored once a pattern emerges.
Drawbacks?
A paucity of input allows for skewed conclusions (poorly defined bell curve).
As someone shrewdly noted, some restaurants will attract highly critical foodies, while middle of the road places will often attract less picky reviewers.
The same often holds true for the Zagat hotel guides.
For some people a Hyatt is a world class hotel. Those who stay at the Four Seasons with regularity may be resentful of the entire property if even a small glitch occurs.
A Zagat 'staff person' posted here a year or two ago about how things work. The numbers are averages from survey respondents and the commentary is supposed to be representative of general sentiment but entertaining at the same time. But there's plenty of subjectivity in the commentary part.
It's not a science. Still better than what was available in the pre-Zagat era.
They are reasonable and well thought out.
Zagat's hypothesis is that if they amass a large sample of surveys, the truth will emerge. It's the bell curve hypothesis. Outliers are to be ignored once a pattern emerges.
Drawbacks?
A paucity of input allows for skewed conclusions (poorly defined bell curve).
As someone shrewdly noted, some restaurants will attract highly critical foodies, while middle of the road places will often attract less picky reviewers.
The same often holds true for the Zagat hotel guides.
For some people a Hyatt is a world class hotel. Those who stay at the Four Seasons with regularity may be resentful of the entire property if even a small glitch occurs.
A Zagat 'staff person' posted here a year or two ago about how things work. The numbers are averages from survey respondents and the commentary is supposed to be representative of general sentiment but entertaining at the same time. But there's plenty of subjectivity in the commentary part.
It's not a science. Still better than what was available in the pre-Zagat era.
Jun 25th, 2001, 05:30 PM
#13
Guest
Posts: n/a
There are a number of flaws in the Zagat methodology, some of which have been noted. Yes, anyone can fill out the survey, though, if their newspaper interviews are to be believed, the Zagat editors claim that they eliminate surveys where the reviewer obviously has not been to the restaurants he or she "reviews," etc. While the books show ratings of 0-30, survey participants are only given four choices (0-4) and the numbers are converted via some mysterious algorithm. The requirement for rating a restaurant is that the surveyer has dined there within the past year; this has to be taken entirely on faith by the editors (as does that the participants have actually been to a given restaurant at all. So, if I ate someplace in Mayof 2001, and ate there just that one time, I can rate it when I send in my survey for next year's book, which comes out in November. So someone reading the 2002 guide next May may be reading ratings based on a visit two years ago; hardly and up-to-date assessment, given how much restaurant quality goes up and downhill. And it's been noted in the media that the editors do not always let the survey participants' opinions stand on tbeir own. They have stepped in and written comments in the listings like that a restaurant is "better than the numbers indicate." Any problems with the surveys can only be compounded now that Zagat encourages people to rate on their web site, since people can do that quickly, without making the commitment to fill out the whole survey by hand, which at least winnows the herd.
There is an inherent problem, though, in both choosing to use a survey methodology and then, as L would like, adjusting the survey results to reflect readers' opinions that are not expressed in the survey itself. In theory, if the restaurant has gone downhill, that should be reflected in the next survey. The fact that the ratings rarely change from year to year suggests to me that perhaps the respondents are not particularly discerning or perhaps not entirely honest about where they've been, and that the lag time noted above is a problem. None of this speaks well for the guides (which I find most useful for their cross-references by neighborhood, cuisine, etc., and for telephone numbers and addresses, rather than for the reviews).
As an aside and unerelated to the value of the guides, I have a difficult time respecting Tim and Nina Zagat, given that many in the NY restaurant business (including acquaintances of mine) report that they routinely show up at top places with no reservations and demand choice tables, fawning treatment, and comped meals. Of course they get it, because the restaurants are deeply afraid of their power. I find it exceedingly obnoxious.
There is an inherent problem, though, in both choosing to use a survey methodology and then, as L would like, adjusting the survey results to reflect readers' opinions that are not expressed in the survey itself. In theory, if the restaurant has gone downhill, that should be reflected in the next survey. The fact that the ratings rarely change from year to year suggests to me that perhaps the respondents are not particularly discerning or perhaps not entirely honest about where they've been, and that the lag time noted above is a problem. None of this speaks well for the guides (which I find most useful for their cross-references by neighborhood, cuisine, etc., and for telephone numbers and addresses, rather than for the reviews).
As an aside and unerelated to the value of the guides, I have a difficult time respecting Tim and Nina Zagat, given that many in the NY restaurant business (including acquaintances of mine) report that they routinely show up at top places with no reservations and demand choice tables, fawning treatment, and comped meals. Of course they get it, because the restaurants are deeply afraid of their power. I find it exceedingly obnoxious.
Jun 26th, 2001, 04:30 AM
#16
Guest
Posts: n/a
I agree with Caitlin about how a Zagat's should be used - I have just moved to a new neighborhood, say, and want to find inexpensive spots to frequent. I use my Zagat to locate them, then turn to other sources for what I feel are much more reliable reviews. I dine out, on average, four nights a week. After more than a few dismal experiences when relying heavily on Zagat, I've learned that I don't really agree with their reviews of restaurants. However - if I don't like a place, I don't really go back. So, of course, they could have been having an off night and I am not giving them a second chance. Citysearch has recently started posting user reviews of restaurants, and I find them quite helpful - once you've read a few it's easy to figure out who you might agree with by doing a little cross-referencing using restaurants you have enjoyed. Go there and review restaurants you've been to!
Not only do the Zagats have a rather bad reputation about town; keep in mind that there are other human beings, with preferences of their own, compiling the survey results. Say I'm an editor there and I'm looking through the results for my favorite neighborhood restaurant - they're mixed, with half loving the place and half hating it. Of course I'm siding with the half who love it, and the comments I choose will reflect that! This is how it's done. I interviewed for a job there.
When I'm posting here about where people should eat, I really don't recommend that they pick up a Zagat - unless they plan to use it to choose from a list of the "best" places in the city (ie, Le Bernardin, Gotham, Gramercy, etc), because those lists are helpful.
Not only do the Zagats have a rather bad reputation about town; keep in mind that there are other human beings, with preferences of their own, compiling the survey results. Say I'm an editor there and I'm looking through the results for my favorite neighborhood restaurant - they're mixed, with half loving the place and half hating it. Of course I'm siding with the half who love it, and the comments I choose will reflect that! This is how it's done. I interviewed for a job there.
When I'm posting here about where people should eat, I really don't recommend that they pick up a Zagat - unless they plan to use it to choose from a list of the "best" places in the city (ie, Le Bernardin, Gotham, Gramercy, etc), because those lists are helpful.
