rkkwan, you know i love your posts, so no worries i also happen to agree with you most of the time!

an interesting read: "The Party's Over" by Richard Heinberg (i'm on chapter 3 right now)- click here: http://tinyurl.com/m2j2h.

anywho, yes, hypocrites in general aren't cool. my hubby and i have a horribly inefficient 11 year old buick, but fortunately, it's seen us through the years, and living in los angeles we just can't get by on one car and the public transportation system any longer, now that i have a job that requires me to be out at meetings and he's freelancing. we've done that for two years and it's just not working anymore, so a hybrid it is!

bravo to those making environmentally healthier choices!!

Hi, guys! Just now getting back to thread. Was active today!

Everyone certainly has their rights to their opinions & should be encouraged.

Just to clarify...
re: the Prius questions/debate...
the first half year or so, your mileage (like w/*any* car I believe?)
won't be as good as it becomes later once the engine is worked in a bit.
(don't know how to word this, but you who know cars best can explain better, I'm sure)

Things just run more smoothly & efficiently later. So...if already getting good mileage in your first months, be pleased, as it's typical w/any car NOT to see the sticker mileage quoted 'til later.
Thankfully, that later definitely came for us...and that's when I truly was won over.

Now re: my Mini Cooper, I do indeed have an auto transmission...
and yes, that does cut down on its fuel efficiency. I probably get about that same mileage however, as I don't have the S (sports) model so that earns me back a bit more efficiency.

However, as I was saying in my post...
I find myself fueling up not only so much more often than hubby but also w/so much more fuel! Even w/30+ miles per gallon...
compare that to 55-60...and you can see why I feel like we're not even CLOSE at the gaspump...and we're not.

Tonight, not even quite empty, I put in 13.6 gallons & almost $45 or so.
For a long time there, my hubby rarely put more than $20/per tank! (depending on the gas price)

So, again...his only needing 8 gallons to go...well, it makes a difference.
But this is the petty side of me...
money was not & is not the motivator for this car. Just is a pleasant enough benefit in the short-term. (most esp. since we don't find it a small car, nor unworkable for most needs) With the hatchback, again, that helps if needing to haul stuff from your local hardware store, etc.

And, when you think of it, some people get SUV's & trucks (terrible fuel economy, again) for the occasional rare trip when they might need to have extra headroom for what they're hauling, or length.

Check out what it would cost to rent a U-haul pickup on those days...do the math & realize, just how much you'd save if you'd only make use of such vehicles when they are truly needed.
(vs. covering yourself daily with them...only to need a few time a year!)

Re: snow...I can see the interest in 4WD, but have to say, I was really pleasantly surprised here too w/the Prius, as we got 'stuck' by a super early winter storm that hit not this past fall but the one before.
Remember that doozy that stranded all sorts of hikes in October & froze people to El Capitan?? (a freak early storm)

We had just crossed over Yosemite & were on the Eastside needing to get back. The car did beautifully...
even tho' conditions had shut down almost all arteries crossing the state. Had a police escort when finally we got through, altho' we strayed off into deep snow at one point on a 'loo' break at a local ski place that was not yet open for the season! (so then we were w/out escort)

We added chains, but again, if one only hits snow rarely (like 1-4x a year), no need to rule out such a car.
But if one goes every other weekend...
guess 4WD is more needed.

And, everyone has their various needs, too, they have to look at.
I don't think one should NOT opt for a hybrid SUV if the other alternative is a non-hybrid SUV. It's just that...
if one can get by w/out that size/style, you *can* get better fuel efficiency just w/a regular non-hybrid car. (altho' sadly not w/many)

Detroit is SOOOO far behind on this stuff that they deserve the doldrums they are now in. They fought the inevitable need for change...and are now paying the price.

Lastly, re: if the US reduces dependency on foreign (Middle East esp.) oil...won't that just have others depend on that oil?
Well, sure. Maybe. But then let THEM
be dictated (too often) by the horrifying fear of being 'up a creek'
if that particular area decides to hold us hostage to their demands. (for that oil) They can have it!

I'm also w/the minority here & having been in Europe & seen them paying more the true cost of gas...and hence,
reducing their consumption of it...
I'm on the side of those who say...
it's about time we started 'waking up' to the fact that there's no such thing as a free lunch, when it comes to oil.

Just got back from Norway (not for pleasure but family health emergency w/my FIL)
People here for the most part still don't have a CLUE what it's like elsewhere & why the only way of the future should be hybrids or full electric. (what we may one day convert to, ourselves)

How many more people would buy needlessly large vehicles if they had to pay $7 a gallon, do you think?!
Would we find many Hummers out there on residential streets??

Those alone make it hard to swallow Arnold as any kind of an 'environmental' governor, that's for sure! (his promotion of them at one time)

Sorry! Forgot to answer Malesherbes questions. I'm sorry haven't studied the SUV hybrids but maybe hubby knows which is considered most efficient.

I know back when we bought the Prius almost 3 yrs ago now...(late Fall)
that it blew away the Civic & was an entirely different hybrid system.
However, Civic did make some changes so perhaps now is better?

Don't forget when looking at price differences that you DO receive a nice tax rebate or two, which helps halve at LEAST the difference in prices.
Again, I'm not current on the rebates but are still decent. (may not be in a few years when these become more common)

Also, a cool benefit for now, if one commutes a lot (which we don't)...
you can use the carpool lane, even if a solo driver (clearly not as environmental as we'd like to be, but a reality most have to do)...
anyway, that's a big perk in many areas!

As far as not hearing your car...actually, shortly after you turn it on, the engine kicks in...even if driving slowly because as mentioned previously, it does need a few minutes of being used, before it's most efficient & able to rely solely on battery at certain speeds.

As you probably know, every time you stop (for a light, sign or whatever) it kicks off the engine & goes to battery. Like I said, if an LA commuter most esp...this is HUGE!!
In stop & go or at very slow speeds would run the whole time on battery.
And when you see it saying MPG 99 on your screen...
'tis a wonderful sight.

As far as others hearing you goes...
as noted, when you first stop out of a parking lot, it takes a second, but soon, after your car's engine kicks on so others hear you. But when you first start to back up...may not have yet...SOOOO, many of these have internal reminders/sound to keep YOU alert to others, instead. (this can be disconnected once you're used to it all)

Once your baby is warmed up, however, yes, if in a parking lot later, you need to be aware that others MAY not hear you from behind. BUT, usually the wheels make enough noise on the gravel, pavement whatever, that they hear that.

Only once did I see someone (okay twice) almost jump out of their skin, when they discovered we were creeping behind them. (as they were clueless we were there) Was when we were in Canada..at a popular tourist spot.

So...have no fear.
The world is growing used to these being out there...and like I said...
ANY move you make in this direction w/your dollars is a vote for more of them...and better versions, too.

So, SUV or not...
consider a hybrid. (esp. if you can't let go of the SUV need, which I understand some just can't for the needs they have in their families)
Station wagons used to be all we had...
and they are more efficient...
but, I understand visually, SUV's appeal to more.

So, I still say, no one is really buying a hybrid for its coolness factor or looks!
But they ARE still buying SUV's for these reasons over standard station wagons, or the station wagon/SUV blend, like the Subarus.
No disputing SUV's are more snazzy than a station wagon. ;-)
(and no that's NOT a dig, folks!
Look I fell for a car due to its visual appeal, clearly...so I understand...Minis are largely about that, altho' they ARE safe for their size)

OK, I've read this post with interest as my DH & I are considering a hybrid. What about the batteries? I understand they have to be replaced after 5-8 years and that it is a huge expense. Even if one didn't plan on keeping the car over 5 years (which we do, current car is going on 7) how could you sell it?

Slw - I mentioned the huge cost of replacing the battery above, and it seems that no one here wants to address that question.

Someone, please: exactly how much are you saving on using a hybrid car, when in the future there's a distinct possibility that no one will buy it without a $2500+ cost for a new battery? And if YOU replace the battery before you sell it, are you still saving money over the years that you've owned the car?

The hybrid components (including batteries) come with an 8-year, 100,000 mile warranty.

Thank you Brian, but that didn't answer the question.

If a prospective buyer of your 6 year old Prius realizes that they will need a new battery that costs $2500 within 2 years...WILL THEY BUY YOUR CAR? Or will they look elsewhere? And if you replace the battery to be able to sell the car, does the $2500 cost ruin whatever savings you made by buying the car to begin with?

Sorry, let me be more specific - once the car passes 8 years, the warrenty no longer applies. I'm not sure if warrenties are transferable...so where does that leave us?

I think there's a fairly good argument that buying a Prius is not an economical thing to do based purely on the cash flow dynamics (including resale value/battery issues).

But as mentioned above, people buy them for a lot of other reasons (environmental, uniqueness, cool factor and quality).

While I haven't driven one, I have ridden in a couple and was pretty impressed. It drove really well and the interior was pretty comfortable (even the back seats). And all the bells and whistles up front were pretty cool. While you'll do better economically in a Corolla, this is a much nicer car.

Thanks for all the good advice and comments!

Re. the battery- the Prius has one of the best resale values out there; it's very easy to sell the car a couple of yrs down the line and get good money for it. Also, right now the battery replacement is costly, but with increasing popularity, 8 yrs down the line, it may not be so. Things change and develop quickly in a period of 8 yrs. Plus, you can get a ten yr warranty which covers battery, I believe--- though we're still looking into that.

Gotta go to work!

We all have to understand that the EPA mileage estimates used in advertising are determined on a dynamometer, not by actual driving, so they are wildly inaccurate (high, that is).

The hybrid system used by Toyota is most efficient in the city, where electricity is used more than gas, than on the highway...the gas engine kicks in at 42 MPH.

I was hot to get one, but got the Corolla instead because my wife can't look at an LCD monitor for more than a few seconds and leaves all of the technology stuff to me. Needless to say, she doesn't come near the computer. I could just visualize her pulling off of the road and calling me to say "YOUR car is acting funny."

My understanding is that this is the last year one can claim the tax deduction for a hybrid. Is that correct?

Our employee fleet of cars includes the Prius, so I have driven it all over Oregon (including mountain passes) and seem to average around 49 mpg.

We got the extended 10 yr. battery warranty. Seemed worth it.

FYI, our car before the Prius was an Acura Integra which was so noisy. I love the quiet in the Prius. My son calls it "Robot Car", LOL.

I'm considering Prius and it has been talked down to me by several engineers and people I know in the tire industry.

They hear all kinds of things from the horses mouth, but they are not always correct in predictions.

And I read Consumer Reports for all the items I buy. I'm not so worried about the economics of resale etc. as about the battery stop/start function.

I've read all this with great interest. Is it possible to be totally trustworthy in very cold weather? Is there any 20 degree F and below experience here?

We've had ours for over a month (was for my husband who totaled the BMW) and he worships the car. I personally think it is an ugly design, but I have to admit driving it is a lot of fun and it's pretty roomy in the front and back too. We're going to drive it from L.A. to Oregon & back this summer.

We also bought a new 2006 Honda Civic for our son (which he will drive when he gets his license). I was going to get a used Civic hybrid for him until I saw the mileage the new Civic allegedly gets (41 mpg, I think). Took that for a spin from L.A. to Tucson & back a few weeks ago, a 7 1/2 hour trip each way (500 miles)and it cost us $40 total each way. Not good at math to figure out what the exact mileage we got, but I suspect it was somewhere close to the claim.

Surfer Girl- Yes, we looked into the Civic Hybrid, but the mileage wasn't much better than the regular Civics. FYI, I'm getting used to the look of the Prius.

I have a 2005 Prius (delivered to me one year ago on June 1st). I live in Wisconsin where we get pretty cold winters. -20F is not unusual. My car has been completely reliable in all ways.

I have also read (this is, of course, anecdotal but the technology hasn't been around long enough for anything but anecdotal) about a Prius used as a taxi - for some reason I'm thinking it was in Canada but could be wrong. This Prius was driven over 200,000 miles with no need of battery replacement. Toyota actually bought the Prius back from the owner so they could study the wear, etc., on the hybrid components.

In-laws just bought a Civic Hybrid. They've been getting 40 mpg on the interstates of MT driving 75 to 80 mph.

We have a 7 year old Corolla with just over 100,000 miles on it. We get close to 32 mpg driving 75 to 80 mph.

I love how quiet the in-law's hybrid is. It seems like we have to shout to hear each other on the interstate in our Corolla.

I really love mine. Wish I could afford another one, my DH uses it for work. We got ours last October, not a single problem!