nelsonian, and no one is asking you to do it. I do realize some locals end up feeling "guilty" that they might seem cheap compared to tourists if they don't leave tips (as is their custom) while tourists do -- but that's just silly. But I doubt sincerely any server in New Zealand gets offended by the kindness of a little cash "bonus" left by a stranger to thank him for a good job.

Tipping only exists in NZ because tourists from places like the US can't seem to be able to enjoy a meal without having to give a tip. It is not expected and New Zealanders do not do it!!!

Thank you for that information. Most sources I've seen, including local-seeming sources suggest differently, but I appreciate your perspective.

I would offer, though, that sometimes there is diversity of practice within a country. And sometimes what is said is not truly reflective of reality. For example, most information about Denmark says you shouldn't tip. Half of my colleagues there say you don't need to tip. The other half say you should tip 5%. But I'm not sure they think of it in the same way Americans think of a tip, which is that it is basically part of the cost of the meal. I do think they consider it a bit more extraordinary.

"Please stay home with that attitude"

May Brits do because of it.

We eat out far less frequently when in the States. Many see the tax/tipping system as nothing more than a scam.

Because it is.

May Brits do because of it.

Good riddance.

We eat out far less frequently when in the States. Many see the tax/tipping system as nothing more than a scam.

Because it is.

Nonsense. Provincial nonsense. Provincial nonsense masquerading as righteousness.

"""Please stay home with that attitude"

May Brits do because of it.""

Hardly.

Florida is full of Brits this time of year.

Agree, good riddance.

One reason for NOT tipping in a culture in which tipping is not expected is that it can result in a bias against locals or others from non-tipping cultures. You mght think that unlikely, but think again! That has begun happening in China – a culture in which tips were not traditionally normative. By 2010, locals couldn’t get a taxi at Beijing’s main train station because drivers refused to take them, focusing instead on foreigners, from whom they had come to expect tips and unmetered fares.

Another reason for NOT tipping in a culture in which tipping is not expected is that doing so can contribute to some negative stereotypes about Americans (or others) who tip – that Americans are culturally insensitive, think we can buy anything and/or anyone, don’t understand the value of money, don’t appreciate the professionalism of those with whom we interact, want to flaunt our wealth, are stupid or careless, etc. Do you REALLY want to contribute to these stereotypes? And do you REALLY want to PAY to contribute to these stereotypes?

As for tipping in the U.S., yes, you are paying for part of a server’s salary – but then again, you are doing that in any case, and in other cultures as well, because the cost of the meal includes part of the servers’ salaries (whether those salaries are sufficient or not). The primary differences are whether those costs are reflected on the menu, so that "your" share of the salary of servers is guaranteed (as when tipping is NOT required) OR whether what the servers receive is dependent upon your PERSONAL willingness to honor the tipping norms. In a culture in which tipping IS expected, what you accomplish by failing to tip, or failing to tip at appropriate levels, is to choose to shortchange that PARTICULAR server and his/her coworkers.

I wish the U.S. would change its approach to tipping, but I don’t expect that to happen. I also wish the U.S. would adopt laws that require that minimum wages ensure that one can actually survive. Unfortunately, I also don't expect that to happen in the foreseeable future. In the meantime, as NewbE said, the difference for YOU in leaving a 20% tip (assuming you've gotten acceptable service or better) is small; the difference in the server’s wages can be substantial. Frankly, it seems to me that failing to take that into consideration when you select a restaurant or place your order in a country in which tipping is normative could be considered to be poor planning and poor budgeting.

@ Kymjon -- despite the controversy that questions about tipping always generate, I thank you for trying to identify the operative norms in advance of your trip. I hope you enjoy it!

One reason for NOT tipping in a culture in which tipping is not expected is that it can result in a bias against locals or others from non-tipping cultures.

Good thing nobody has suggested tipping in non-tipping cultures.

so can contribute to some negative stereotypes about Americans (or others) who tip – that Americans are culturally insensitive

There is nothing one can do about that. This thread is a perfect example. Americans are simply saying, this is our culture and here are the norms. Then we have to listen to some Brits prattle on about how they don't like.

The Americans are culturally insensitive trope is dumb and overplayed. In my experience, Europeans, particularly the British and Germans are far more insensitive in their actions, if we were to generalize.

"Good thing nobody has suggested tipping in non-tipping cultures."

Reread the thread, travelgourmet.

"so can contribute to some negative stereotypes about Americans (or others)...

> There is nothing one can do about that. "

There certainly is something one can do about that -- follow the local norms to the best of one's ability after informing oneself in advance. At least make an effort to be culturally sensitive!

kja, I think your post was thoughtful and very well put--and not just because you agreed with me

@ travelgourmet: Let me add: Reread the thread, including your own contributions. To wit, your comment of Dec 17, 14 at 12:10pm

There certainly is something one can do about that

Nonsense. It isn't a fact-based opinion. It is a myth perpetuated by insecure Europeans. Addressing their insecurity is the only thing that can be done to combat it. Something tells me, however, that it isn't considered culturally sensitive to tell Brits or Germans that they are full of c**p.

kja - I am well aware of my comments. I said one should NOT tip in countries where tipping isn't practiced.

I do, however, dispute the notion that tipping is not common in Europe. To wit:

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandst...urants-holiday

Note that the source is a British newspaper.

@ NewbE - thanks! I've given considerable thought to this issue and how to explain it -- and I keep trying! Unfortunately, I know there are some people who will never give the issue a second thought. And I do understand that it can be much, MUCH easier to find a way to justify what one does than to think about when or how to change.

IMO, you offered some compelling arguments, too - kudos!


@ travelgourmet -- it would apparently surprise you to find that culturally accepted stereotypes can, indeed, be changed. I remember the days when people said that blacks and Hispanics and women couldn't actually contribute to society except as unskilled or unpaid workers, or that gays and other LGBT individuals couldn't be upstanding citizens, etc. IMO, many people in the U.S. still have a considerable way to go on each of these stereotypes, but I can say that IME, we have made substantial progress. Thank goodness we didn't listen to the nay-sayers!

Change may take a while, but it CAN happen. IMO, constructive change is not well served by those how say that there is nothing one can do about a problem. JMO.

(BTW, the stereotypes I mentioned extend FAR beyond Europe. And also, just to foreshadow the inevitable "counterarguments" -- No, I am NOT saying that failing to observe tipping norms is comparable in ANY way to dealing with prejudice. These are, obviously, issues of a substantively different scale. But if we can actually nudge the bar on prejudice against black or Hispanics or women or LGBT, why wouldn't we be able to nudge it on far less entrenched issues, like whether to leave a tip and in what amount?)

IMO, constructive change is not well served by those how say that there is nothing one can do about a problem.

There are a few things that can be done:

1) Point out that the British are really the awful ones:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/2137729.stm

2) Point out that the French aren't far behind:
http://csis.org/blog/british-and-fre...E2%80%9D-title

3) Make everyone go to the South of Spain or Phuket to see what happens when you let the Europeans run amok. Both make Cancun look downright sophisticated.

BTW, the stereotypes I mentioned extend FAR beyond Europe.

The only people that I have to listen to prattle on about Americans are Europeans and, occasionally, Australians. When I am in Asia or Latin America, most everyone I meet is quite friendly.

@ travelgourmet -- But you are OK with people OVER-tipping relative to local norms? I believe you are referring to your post in which you say: "But in most of Europe and Australia/NZ ... tipping in restaurants does exist.., so the worst you will do is overtip" [See your post of Dec 17, 14 at 12:10pm.]

Sorry, IMO, consistently overtipping relative to local norms, even where tipping is normative, is also a problem -- similar to the problem of tipping when tips are not normative.

My position is that people should tip in accordance with local norms. Period.

Just like we pay local rates for rooms, food from markets, mass transit....

Messages crossing in e-space!

@ travelbgourmet -- I would not want to prevent ANYONE from expressing inconsistent positions on this board -- not even you ( ;-) ) (and note that I am not asserting that you have done so).

But perhaps we can, for just a moment, focus on the issue? Which is -- I believe -- whether and how much people should tip?

To say it again, my position is that people should tip in accordance with local norms. Period.

I'm not trying to blame anyone -- I think most travelers are doing what they think best -- which is why it can be very important to discuss the pros and cons of failing to follow local norms. I just want people to realize that what they might think a nice thing -- leaving a "bonus" in a culture that does not have a normative expecation for tips -- is not necessarily a good thing at all. Conversely, failing to provide a tip that meets local normative standards, in a culture in which tipping is expected, doesn't send a message to the culture -- it simply hurts the server(s).

But you are OK with people OVER-tipping relative to local norms?

If it is an honest mistake, yes, I am okay with someone leaving 10% when the local average is 5%. It won't be the end of the world, except in those areas where tourists overwhelmingly outnumber locals. And, heck, if that is the case, why should the norms be decided by the locals? If you have a hotel that sees 90% of your customers coming from the US (or the UK or Germany or...) tipping norms won't be the only thing that is changed to cater to them.

similar to the problem of tipping when tips are not normative.

Just so we are clear, tipping would rise to rude in only a handful of countries. In most, they may think you a sucker, but it would only be a handful where it would be considered rude - Japan and (sort of) Korea being the most obvious examples. Unless I am mistaken, none of those commenting on this thread are Japanese or Korean. Most are American, British, or Australian, where tipping (or some manner of service charge) is largely normative. We have one Kiwi, and it does appear that tipping is not normative there, but it doesn't rise to offensive, per the CEO of the NZ Hospitality Association:

"Certainly a lot of visitors, if that is their culture in their country, do tip. The industry certainly welcomes it. We'd expect that to continue in the world cup."

So, yes, everyone should make an honest effort to learn tipping norms, including when and where not to tip. But outside a handful of countries (that nobody posting here is from), overtipping or tipping inappropriately is not remotely as bad as undertipping or not tipping where you should.

Tipping was not normal in Australia either, I think it has become more so now in the larger cities, but we don't do it when we travel there.

I am grateful for the advice on the tipping culture or lack of it in South Korea. We will be there for eight days from New Year.

"why should the norms be decided by the locals?" -- well, maybe because they are, in fact, the locals? And because creating islands of non-normative behavior can result in changes that are more wide-spread, as in the example I provided above regarding taxis in Beijing? And because local tipping norms are intricately intertwined with taxes and all sorts of other financially critical consequences for those who normally do (or don't) receive tips? If ANY readers of this thread still have ANY questions about the importance of local norms about tipping, PLEASE place an articulate question about it!

"tipping would rise to rude in only a handful of countries" -- and maybe that's the problem, travelgourmet -- I'm not talking about what rises to the level of RUDE. I'm talking about what happens when you fail to honor cultural norms, not about what is or is not considered rude (although that it sometimes an issue). If you can't appreciate this distinction, maybe that's why you don't seem to understand.

I have NO idea where you found your "Certainly a lot of visitors" quote. I simply again state: Tip in accordance with local norms. Period.

And BTW, I visited South Korea in May 2014. I spent several days in Seoul before traveling around the country, and then another few days in Seoul before departing. I was appalled to see a tip jar at a coffee bar frequented by Westerners in those last few days, where there had been none just a few weeks before. I asked, "I thought tipping was not expected in South Korea?" The young man behind the counter turned a VERY deep shade of red as he took that jar away and muttered something about people having asked for a place to leave their tips. It made me very sad.

So I'll say it again: It's simple -- Just tip in accordance with local norms. Period

@ nelsonian: Do NOT tip in South Korea! (And BTW, I hope your daughter is enjoying her time there, and that you enjoy your visit with her. )