The responsibility to warn the unwary traveler can't be easily dismissed.
Mar 6th, 2004, 02:31 PM
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The responsibility to warn the unwary traveler can't be easily dismissed.
FODOR'S:
Please note before you make any decision to delete this thread:
Consider deleting only posts added later in which negative comments about a named poster are made,and leaving posts, that discuss behavior without singling out any individual by name.
No Fodor's poster is criticized by name in what I have posted. The following appears because of the concern of many Fodor's users, many of whom voice their support of this effort in the comments which follow my message below, over behavior which is abusing and disrupting this forum, but I have "sanitized" it by deleting the names of any person referred to in a negative way.
I ask you to leave it in the record, so that others may direct posters to it in the
fiture to explain warn them and explain to them about behavior they may encounter here, so that they can make the best, most well-informed use of their site they can.
I hope those who agree with me will help keep this thread free of any negative comments about specific screen names. I am confident that any careful reading and analysis by Fodor's of the record will make the postings discussed below as easily recognizable to Fodor's as they are to so many of us.
If some one posts later to this thread because he or she feels attacked by the below, that person is self-identifying. What I am posting does not identify anyone.
I support the points made by SAB, Jocelyn, BayArea, obxgirl, questionmotives, and janis on a thread Fodor's has silenced. Experience shows that ignoring the poster who poses as many different people may keep him from engaging in lengthy quarrels with the rest of us, but it does not discourage him from honing in on unsuspecting victims. A number of times now I've come across threads on which, unchallenged and unidentified, he's circling some unwary inquirer like a flock of vultures, using his multiple identities to outnumber and overwhelm one or two meekly offered dissenting views.
Fodor's, you need to take action to protect people who trust your reputation to conduct an honest, open and helpful forum. If you will not protect those who come to you with this trust from this predator, we, your ethical users, have a responsibility to speak up and warn them.
I'm in favor of ignoring him personally as long as he keeps to one screen name per thread. My objection, and I think that of those who I've listed above who have spoken out similarly, is not primarily to the fact that this person has bizarre views and expresses them obnoxiously, although I think these things are true. I've hoped that he would be rational enough to respond to our recognizing his right to have his say as long as he plays fair, and not attacking him personally as long as he doesn't present himself as people he isn't. I've been repeatedly disappointed in that hope. It happens that on those occasions when he sticks to one name for a long period, it's when he gets into one of his snarling matches with one of us, and at those times he reveals himself as such an obvious crank that he's harmless.
But I agree with those above who say we shouldn't remain silent when he goes into his multiple screen name bit on a thread and posts so many short messages under so many different names (he's often reached 5 or 6 different names a thread) that those not familiar with him are likely to really think they're hearing from a lot of different people.
He simply can do too much damage to innocent and unsuspecting people's chances of realizing their hopes for a trip the memory of which they'll carry the rest of their lives. I believe those of us who see this happening have an obligation not to turn our heads away from deliberate deception of an unknowing person. We would want them to do the same for us.
I think it's a mistake to let him goad us into a direct repetitive back and forth with him, as he has often been able to do. I don't think joking or ridicule works either. He is utterly humorless, and, although I know many well-meaning posters disagree with me on this, I think what he's doing isn't funny or trivial.
Instead, I think that the first one of us who discovers an unsuspecting person in the clutches of this predator should sound the alarm in the thread, once, calling attention to what is happening and urging the intended victim to balance what he is hearing by also consulting other sources of information. Then the rest of us should give our opinions on the subject of the thread, without personal comments about the predator. Sure, he'll start hurling abuse and accusations, but he hangs himself when he starts to do that. I really think that once warned, a great majority of his prospective victims will see clearly what is going on from that point on. I think it would occur to few people coming into this forum cold that someone would be lurking here operating as he does, but as soon as one becomes alert to the possibility, he sticks out like a sore thumb whatever name he uses, with his sweeping dogmatic statements, one note tone of bristling hostility, extremely limited and colorless vocabulary, and inability to punctuate correctly.
But--I do not buy the idea that Fodor's is doing all it could. Fodor's reaction at present seems to be like that of the kindergarten teacher who punishes the entire class because someone misbehaved. It didn't work then, and it won't work now. All it does is arouse resentment in those of us who have played it straight, and are being punished along with the guilty.
Entire threads are disappearing--like three Union Square threads within 24 hours--just because he has surfaced, started to spread his poison under his multiple persona ruse, and someone has called him on it. It seems that Fodor's is intent on burning this village of posters in order to save it. The other night, on a thread on which he had not appeared, I paid a compliment to one of my favorite posters, Easytraveller, after reading a particularly good post by her, totally unrelated to this guy--and then he popped up, saying the compliment was only a part of an elaborately nefarious plot to disprove his allegations that Easytraveller and I are really the same person. So Fodor's deleted his accusation--and my compliment to Easytraveller with it. The next day, I tried to repeat it in response to another excellent post by her, again on a thread on which the predator had not appeared or figured at all, and it was deleted even before, so far as I know, he had any chance to find it and jump on it.
When Fodor's does this, it is giving this guy too much power. When we can't even converse amongst ourselves and have it survive beause of the fear our doing so may attract the predators attention--like our speaking to each other is the same as bleeding near a shark--things have gone much too far.
Fodor's, take back control of your forum! Make it safe for those of us who have enjoyed it, supported it and used it ethically!
Delete this dishonest person's posts only, from the point in any thread he first uses a second screen name with clear intent to deceive visitors to your site! It is not credible that you can't identify which posts are his. We, and you, all know how easy that is. And it is not responsible for you to stand by and see unsuspecting visitors to your site victimized. If you are unwilling to delete him, then you could speak up in a moderator's function to point out that the person using this screen name is believed to participate in threads using multiple identities.
And if you will not take action to identify him specifically, Fodor's, then follow BayArea's excellent advice to post a notice when you see him preying on someone, alerting them that such activities have been detected at times in Northern California forums. If you don't choose to identify which side the multiple persnality forum abuser takes as BayArea suggests, then leave that open. Despite his countercharges, most people will see which side is him before very long at all.
If you won't do either of these things, Fodor's, then at least delete his posts and those of his accusers, including myself, but leave the posts of those who are just expressing their opinion on the thread topic, for the benefit of the person asking the original question. Don't seek to dissuade us from raising the alarm by destroying entire threads often full of helpful information for questioners, hoping we'll feel guilty that happened. That is not only unjust to most of your users, but won't work to silence us. In the end, his intended victims are probably better off getting their information elsewhere rather than being left without warning and deceived.
I, and I believe others, won't keep silent when we see deliberate attempts to deceive unsuspecting people occuring beneath your logo. We will ethically use only one screen name at a time, unlike him. But like him, if you block one name, we'll come up with another. If you won't act to protect your users, we will not be quiet about what we're seeing.
You can't run from or delete away this controversy, Fodor's. It is time to make a value judgement, and take a stand that you will not look the other way when you discover unethical behavior done under your name. Do something--something different from what you are doing now. Make us proud that we have chosen to spend our time with you.
Author: Jocelyn_P
Date: 03/02/2004, 10:56 pm
Message: Very well said, johncharles.
Author: easytraveler
Date: 03/02/2004, 11:00 pm
Message: Well said, johncharles!
I posted what to me was a pretty harmless response to you and it, too, was deleted. Kinda surprised me.
Was it something I said? Or was it something I ate?
In legalese, Fodors is either "unable or unwilling" to control the abuse of its forum.
I know, from being in Silicon Valley, that there are ways to track users. I have the feeling that {Name Deleted} and his many aliases is using multiple computers at one site. They can be traced, but it may be too costly for Fodors to do this.
Meanwhile, may the many members of the Borg keep up the Good Fight!
Author: grantop
Date: 03/02/2004, 11:08 pm
Message: johncharles, nicely stated.
Author: obxgirl
Date: 03/02/2004, 11:49 pm
Message: johncharles, Your illustrative and articulate prose outshines the garbage {Name Deleted} et al perpetuates. I think Fodors is just capping the crap when they shut down a thread. I for one hope you won't be deterred in continuing to contribute.
Author: sparky67
Date: 03/03/2004, 12:43 am
Message: Thank you, johncharles!
Author: bigdog50
Date: 03/03/2004, 01:01 am
Message: johncharles -- I agree with the others -- very articulate and accurate. Nice to see only positive comments in this thread.
Author: janis
Date: 03/03/2004, 01:52 am
Message: Wonderful johncharles! Fodors DOES bear a certain amount of resposibility here. I have been on other boards/forums where deceitful or bratty posters were ferreted out and banished. Perhaps Fodors doesn't have the same level of technical expertise . . . .
Author: CalgirlSusan
Date: 03/02/2004, 11:19 pm
Message: Well said, johncharles. At least I'm glad {Name Deleted} isn't responding to these posts. And I hope if he does, people will ignore him.
Author: Patrick
Date: 03/03/2004, 09:00 pm
Message: Here's a thought. Since Fodor's says they don't know what to do about the "mental degenerate" {Name Deleted}, maybe whenever he posts, they could simply add an editor's note right below his post, mentioning they've tried to block him from posting but have been unsuccessful and that they do not agree with his viewpoints. Wouldn't that solve everything?
Author: janis
Date: 03/03/2004, 09:00 pm
Message: Thanks again johncharles.
{7 Names Divided by Slashes Deleted} uses guerilla tactics on the forum so maybe we have to to fight fire w/ fire. Perhaps this will put enough pressure on Fodors to figure out how to stop him . . . . . .
Author: easytraveler
Date: 03/03/2004, 09:36 pm
Message: Someone posted a long, long list of this guy's aliases. Could that be done again? I'd like to print it out and so get to know the many faces of {Name Deleted}. Thanks!
Author: johncharles
Date: 03/03/2004, 09:43 pm
Message: My heartfelt gratitude to all the members of the Fodor's posting community above for their kind words and support. I solicit the support of even more of the community for the positions above (including, most recently, Patrick's fine suggestion), which will be carried forward to those with decisionmaking power at Fodor's--whether or not the above is deleted again, as it was this morning.
Isn't it terrific that we continued to hear nothing all night from the predator, as CalGirl pointed out above? I have the feeling we won't see anything to comment on from him tonight either. I like CalGirl's perspective--part of the reason I changed the title of the above, to more accurately reflect what I'm calling for. If he had shown up, we might have been tempted to waste our breath on back and forth with him, instead of saving it to call on Fodor's to take some appropriate action, and most of all to warn the unwary when we see him victimizing them.
As Easytraveller has called for in another thread tonight--Borg Patrol!!
Author: grantop
Date: 03/03/2004, 10:04 pm
Message: Johncharles, Patrick & BayArea, thanks for working towards a solution.
Author: kikahead
Date: 03/03/2004, 11:52 pm
Message: Johncharles--I think I love you! Thank you for your post!!!
Author: questionmotives
Date: 03/04/2004, 12:38 am
Message: Here's your list of the nutjob's aliases, easytraveler:
{65 Names Deleted}
Author: janis
Date: 03/04/2004, 12:41 am
Message: easytraveler: The names he is using now are {8 Names Deleted}. There were even more screen names late last year but these seem to be the current ones.
Author: easytraveler
Date: 03/04/2004, 11:40 pm
Message: Thank you, johncharles!
You and Patrick must be Lead Borgs or Master Borgs or Sergeant Borgs!
Author: CalgirlSusan
Date: 03/05/2004, 12:13 am
Message: Maybe {Name Deleted}has been banned for good. I haven't seen any posts from her all night. But if I did, I'd ignore them. Good riddance.
Author: djkbooks
Date: 03/05/2004, 12:17 am
Message: It is utterly astonishing to me that anyone would invest the time and effort you have "johncharles", not to mention shouting in ALL CAPS.
All in all, any reasonably observant person who participates in this forum would be able to recognize obvious miscreants. Otherwise, they would be better served by the travel information available otherwise WITHIN this Fodors website with regard to their destination, or a simple web search, whereupon the plethora of information is nearly overwhelming. Not to mention dozens of fabulous printed tour guides at the local bookstore.
If I were to inquire about visiting my already planned and booked destination of San Francisco, only to be deluged with recommendations for San Jose, I would likely disregard same. Even if I found such posts interesting (which they never are), I would quickly figure out that the author of same was twisted.
I would venture to assume that anyone posting an inquiry herein is fully capable of considering all responses and determining those worthy of attention. Except for all those who just can't be bothered to research otherwise.
This forum is chock full of incredible tips and recommendations NOT found in all the websites and tour guides. One has be able to recognize same.
And, this Travel Forum is not a debate or popularity contest. Though, it seems there are many who have absolutely nothing better to do, at all times of the day and night, than to "express" their "opinions" (or frustrations) of every sort, even when they have nothing whatsoever relevant, valuable, or even interesting, to offer.
But, anyone can discern same.
All anyone has to do is simply IGORE the obvious trolls.
Anyone seriously researching their trip would know better than to pay any attention to them, and anyone wanting to be told where to go, what to see, etc... without checking any other resources whatsoever, or searching this forum... well, they're one their own.
Someone once said (wish I could remember who) "Advice - Wise men don't need it and fools don't heed it."
Patrick?
Author: questionmotives
Date: 03/05/2004, 12:22 am
Message: *Applause, applause!* Thank you johncharles, for keeping the pressure on Fodor's and not allowing them to just continue to delete away everyone's postings about this. There is mounting frustration here, just there was in the pre-registration days. Fodor's, you need to hear and understand this, not dismiss and delete it.
I half suspect that the perp is a girl too...or at least a man who wishes he was one. I picture him as a drag queen version of "Mommy Dearest" Joan Crawford, that ace abuser and manipulator. Big ole eyebrows, pancake makeup and red lipstick. And a five o'clock shadow, lol.
Author: easytraveler
Date: 03/05/2004, 12:57 am
Message: djkbooks: "I would venture to assume that anyone posting an inquiry herein is fully capable of considering all responses and determining those worthy of attention."
For those as intelligent or as knowledgeable as yourself, yes. And I don't mean this sarcastically.
However, there have been people who have been misled. Just today there is a second thread by a poster, "kirbysgirl", where she substituted San Jose (which was NOT on her list on the first thread) for San Francisco (which WAS on her first thread) because of advice from the multiple poster.
Maybe you will say that the majority of new posters will ignor the multiple poster's advice, but there will be a handful who will be misled.
I believe that there is a great deal of sincerity and of frustration from the regular posters here. The integrity of the advice given by all is degraded by all the false information and false accusations that are flying around. It is really too much for a person who comes on here maybe once in a while or for the first time to detect what is false and what is true in the complexity that has evolved.
I myself was caught off - guard when I was lumped in with all the other names of the "Borg", just because I said some positive things about San Francisco. So, how is a new/infrequent poster, who is ASKING for information on California, be able to be on guard for false information? Especially when that poster is not expecting to be misdirected?
Thus, I believe, that for most of the regular posters, there is severe discomfort that even ONE person would be misled.
Author: johncharles
Date: 03/05/2004, 01:28 am
Message: djk: first let me say that I can clearly see that you are a different person from the multiple names poster, and I take what you have to say seriously.
I think you will also see if you reread my salutation, however, that I was not shouting at you, or at any poster here. I was shouting at the person at Fodor's who has been indiscriminately destroying everything that I and my friends here have been trying to say for several days now, much of it not related to the many names poster at all. An entire thread which involved this person in no way was deleted just because I told Easytraveller that I liked some posts she'd written. I guess Fodor's did this in deference to the many names poster's accusation that any conversation between Easytraveller and me is just an attempt to cover up our being the same person. Fodor's deserves to hear some shouting over that action. I also just wanted to increase my chances of getting the attention of the person who would otherwise delete my post, that it had been sanitized of the naming of any individual, because I suspect that it is Fodor's rule that posters should stay away from uncivil personal attacks which is being used to justify these deletions. If it is just behavior which is being discussed, and no one is being singled out berated by name, then that should be recognized by Fodor's as something different. I feared that the deleter would quickly get the jist of the topic and delete the post without reading anything that was in regular size type. Now maybe there's some chance.
Your discussion of the research in other sources which people should do oddly echoes--almost word for word--what I've recommended to some of the unwary souls I've seen set upon by the multiple names poster, as an alternative for them to trying to count "votes" or sort out the echoed accusations which fly back and forth. So I agree with just about everything you say about what they should be doing. If all who come here for help had your sophistication, resourcefulness and good judgement concerning the need to research in a variety of sources, there would be no need for me to react to this behavior the way that I do.
But the people who come here are not all like that. In the past few months, again and again I've seen unsuspecting people swallow this guy's act whole, and announce they are changing their trip itineraries drastically, cancelling hotel reservations, and so on based solely on way off-base views and gross factual inaccuracies peddled with this multiple screen name ruse, which they mistake for the consensus of the Fodor's posting community.
I am in favor of ignoring him when he tries to draw those of us who are on to him into extended quarrels. That is indeed a waste of time. But I am not in favor of letting those who are not yet on to him fend for themselves. I strongly believe that those of us who have been around long enough to see what is happening have the responsibility not to leave them alone to be duped and cheated of the travel experience they should have. One reference to the situation per thread is all I advocate--so that they may apply the alertness which someone like you would not need any reminder to use.
Finally, djk, I have to ask: if my time is so misspent expressing myself on this as I have, and I should instead be walking away from it with no or minimal comment, why did you spend so much time and effort writing a post almost as long as one of mine to tell me so? Why did you even enter this thread, which I doubt anyone would, given its title, unless they knew what it was about and what they were getting into? If I should not get myself so upset by this guy's behavior, why so you seem so upset by my behavior in doing so? Why not just ignore this controversy, and me?
Author: easytraveler
Date: 03/05/2004, 01:38 am
Message: djkbooks: I would refer you to the thread "SF: Best hotel on Union Square" and read xnyxny's post. That is, if the thread hasn't been deleted already!
Author: johncharles
Date: 03/05/2004, 02:44 am
Message: Well, Easytraveler, if I am Sergeant Borg, then I think you are the Borg Queen.
While I was composing my characteristically overwordy reply to djk, unknown to me you were saying the same thing to him, better and much more succintly. Too bad I didn't see your post earlier; I wouldn't have had to answer at all.
I really have some hope that sanitizing the post of any mention of any of his names will remove the primary rationale Fodor's would give for their meat-ax deletions. Now it's about behavior, not pointing the finger "uncivilly" at anybody. And if he chooses to volunteer that it must be about him--that's his doing.
But probably I am too optimistic. I strongly suspect the folks doing the daily deletions are not those who are the ultimate decision-makers, and they are the ones before whom I will need to get the appeal for action.
You'll probably recognize that I've grafted a little bit of the world of Harry Potter into the Borg. "He whose name should not be spoken." I've Waldemortized him.
Author: johncharles
Date: 03/05/2004, 03:16 am
Message: Questionmotives, your post above makes me wonder if you've read "1st to Die" by James Patterson, which is set in S.F. I wouldn't have--not my usual sort of thing--but someone gave it to me as a gift. A central character has some strange echoes of the person Any of Whose Names Should Not Be Spoken, and especially of your speculations about that individual above. What's more, this character is obsessed with writing about himself (herself?) in the third person, as if a separate fictional character. And also, a four-person Borg seeks to entrap him or her. Then there's what happens at the beginning of the book when (s)he confronts an unwary couple who are making what he seems to feel is the ultimate Big Mistake: staying in a hotel in Union Square.....
Please note before you make any decision to delete this thread:
Consider deleting only posts added later in which negative comments about a named poster are made,and leaving posts, that discuss behavior without singling out any individual by name.
No Fodor's poster is criticized by name in what I have posted. The following appears because of the concern of many Fodor's users, many of whom voice their support of this effort in the comments which follow my message below, over behavior which is abusing and disrupting this forum, but I have "sanitized" it by deleting the names of any person referred to in a negative way.
I ask you to leave it in the record, so that others may direct posters to it in the
fiture to explain warn them and explain to them about behavior they may encounter here, so that they can make the best, most well-informed use of their site they can.
I hope those who agree with me will help keep this thread free of any negative comments about specific screen names. I am confident that any careful reading and analysis by Fodor's of the record will make the postings discussed below as easily recognizable to Fodor's as they are to so many of us.
If some one posts later to this thread because he or she feels attacked by the below, that person is self-identifying. What I am posting does not identify anyone.
I support the points made by SAB, Jocelyn, BayArea, obxgirl, questionmotives, and janis on a thread Fodor's has silenced. Experience shows that ignoring the poster who poses as many different people may keep him from engaging in lengthy quarrels with the rest of us, but it does not discourage him from honing in on unsuspecting victims. A number of times now I've come across threads on which, unchallenged and unidentified, he's circling some unwary inquirer like a flock of vultures, using his multiple identities to outnumber and overwhelm one or two meekly offered dissenting views.
Fodor's, you need to take action to protect people who trust your reputation to conduct an honest, open and helpful forum. If you will not protect those who come to you with this trust from this predator, we, your ethical users, have a responsibility to speak up and warn them.
I'm in favor of ignoring him personally as long as he keeps to one screen name per thread. My objection, and I think that of those who I've listed above who have spoken out similarly, is not primarily to the fact that this person has bizarre views and expresses them obnoxiously, although I think these things are true. I've hoped that he would be rational enough to respond to our recognizing his right to have his say as long as he plays fair, and not attacking him personally as long as he doesn't present himself as people he isn't. I've been repeatedly disappointed in that hope. It happens that on those occasions when he sticks to one name for a long period, it's when he gets into one of his snarling matches with one of us, and at those times he reveals himself as such an obvious crank that he's harmless.
But I agree with those above who say we shouldn't remain silent when he goes into his multiple screen name bit on a thread and posts so many short messages under so many different names (he's often reached 5 or 6 different names a thread) that those not familiar with him are likely to really think they're hearing from a lot of different people.
He simply can do too much damage to innocent and unsuspecting people's chances of realizing their hopes for a trip the memory of which they'll carry the rest of their lives. I believe those of us who see this happening have an obligation not to turn our heads away from deliberate deception of an unknowing person. We would want them to do the same for us.
I think it's a mistake to let him goad us into a direct repetitive back and forth with him, as he has often been able to do. I don't think joking or ridicule works either. He is utterly humorless, and, although I know many well-meaning posters disagree with me on this, I think what he's doing isn't funny or trivial.
Instead, I think that the first one of us who discovers an unsuspecting person in the clutches of this predator should sound the alarm in the thread, once, calling attention to what is happening and urging the intended victim to balance what he is hearing by also consulting other sources of information. Then the rest of us should give our opinions on the subject of the thread, without personal comments about the predator. Sure, he'll start hurling abuse and accusations, but he hangs himself when he starts to do that. I really think that once warned, a great majority of his prospective victims will see clearly what is going on from that point on. I think it would occur to few people coming into this forum cold that someone would be lurking here operating as he does, but as soon as one becomes alert to the possibility, he sticks out like a sore thumb whatever name he uses, with his sweeping dogmatic statements, one note tone of bristling hostility, extremely limited and colorless vocabulary, and inability to punctuate correctly.
But--I do not buy the idea that Fodor's is doing all it could. Fodor's reaction at present seems to be like that of the kindergarten teacher who punishes the entire class because someone misbehaved. It didn't work then, and it won't work now. All it does is arouse resentment in those of us who have played it straight, and are being punished along with the guilty.
Entire threads are disappearing--like three Union Square threads within 24 hours--just because he has surfaced, started to spread his poison under his multiple persona ruse, and someone has called him on it. It seems that Fodor's is intent on burning this village of posters in order to save it. The other night, on a thread on which he had not appeared, I paid a compliment to one of my favorite posters, Easytraveller, after reading a particularly good post by her, totally unrelated to this guy--and then he popped up, saying the compliment was only a part of an elaborately nefarious plot to disprove his allegations that Easytraveller and I are really the same person. So Fodor's deleted his accusation--and my compliment to Easytraveller with it. The next day, I tried to repeat it in response to another excellent post by her, again on a thread on which the predator had not appeared or figured at all, and it was deleted even before, so far as I know, he had any chance to find it and jump on it.
When Fodor's does this, it is giving this guy too much power. When we can't even converse amongst ourselves and have it survive beause of the fear our doing so may attract the predators attention--like our speaking to each other is the same as bleeding near a shark--things have gone much too far.
Fodor's, take back control of your forum! Make it safe for those of us who have enjoyed it, supported it and used it ethically!
Delete this dishonest person's posts only, from the point in any thread he first uses a second screen name with clear intent to deceive visitors to your site! It is not credible that you can't identify which posts are his. We, and you, all know how easy that is. And it is not responsible for you to stand by and see unsuspecting visitors to your site victimized. If you are unwilling to delete him, then you could speak up in a moderator's function to point out that the person using this screen name is believed to participate in threads using multiple identities.
And if you will not take action to identify him specifically, Fodor's, then follow BayArea's excellent advice to post a notice when you see him preying on someone, alerting them that such activities have been detected at times in Northern California forums. If you don't choose to identify which side the multiple persnality forum abuser takes as BayArea suggests, then leave that open. Despite his countercharges, most people will see which side is him before very long at all.
If you won't do either of these things, Fodor's, then at least delete his posts and those of his accusers, including myself, but leave the posts of those who are just expressing their opinion on the thread topic, for the benefit of the person asking the original question. Don't seek to dissuade us from raising the alarm by destroying entire threads often full of helpful information for questioners, hoping we'll feel guilty that happened. That is not only unjust to most of your users, but won't work to silence us. In the end, his intended victims are probably better off getting their information elsewhere rather than being left without warning and deceived.
I, and I believe others, won't keep silent when we see deliberate attempts to deceive unsuspecting people occuring beneath your logo. We will ethically use only one screen name at a time, unlike him. But like him, if you block one name, we'll come up with another. If you won't act to protect your users, we will not be quiet about what we're seeing.
You can't run from or delete away this controversy, Fodor's. It is time to make a value judgement, and take a stand that you will not look the other way when you discover unethical behavior done under your name. Do something--something different from what you are doing now. Make us proud that we have chosen to spend our time with you.
Author: Jocelyn_P
Date: 03/02/2004, 10:56 pm
Message: Very well said, johncharles.
Author: easytraveler
Date: 03/02/2004, 11:00 pm
Message: Well said, johncharles!
I posted what to me was a pretty harmless response to you and it, too, was deleted. Kinda surprised me.
Was it something I said? Or was it something I ate?
In legalese, Fodors is either "unable or unwilling" to control the abuse of its forum.
I know, from being in Silicon Valley, that there are ways to track users. I have the feeling that {Name Deleted} and his many aliases is using multiple computers at one site. They can be traced, but it may be too costly for Fodors to do this.
Meanwhile, may the many members of the Borg keep up the Good Fight!
Author: grantop
Date: 03/02/2004, 11:08 pm
Message: johncharles, nicely stated.
Author: obxgirl
Date: 03/02/2004, 11:49 pm
Message: johncharles, Your illustrative and articulate prose outshines the garbage {Name Deleted} et al perpetuates. I think Fodors is just capping the crap when they shut down a thread. I for one hope you won't be deterred in continuing to contribute.
Author: sparky67
Date: 03/03/2004, 12:43 am
Message: Thank you, johncharles!
Author: bigdog50
Date: 03/03/2004, 01:01 am
Message: johncharles -- I agree with the others -- very articulate and accurate. Nice to see only positive comments in this thread.
Author: janis
Date: 03/03/2004, 01:52 am
Message: Wonderful johncharles! Fodors DOES bear a certain amount of resposibility here. I have been on other boards/forums where deceitful or bratty posters were ferreted out and banished. Perhaps Fodors doesn't have the same level of technical expertise . . . .
Author: CalgirlSusan
Date: 03/02/2004, 11:19 pm
Message: Well said, johncharles. At least I'm glad {Name Deleted} isn't responding to these posts. And I hope if he does, people will ignore him.
Author: Patrick
Date: 03/03/2004, 09:00 pm
Message: Here's a thought. Since Fodor's says they don't know what to do about the "mental degenerate" {Name Deleted}, maybe whenever he posts, they could simply add an editor's note right below his post, mentioning they've tried to block him from posting but have been unsuccessful and that they do not agree with his viewpoints. Wouldn't that solve everything?
Author: janis
Date: 03/03/2004, 09:00 pm
Message: Thanks again johncharles.
{7 Names Divided by Slashes Deleted} uses guerilla tactics on the forum so maybe we have to to fight fire w/ fire. Perhaps this will put enough pressure on Fodors to figure out how to stop him . . . . . .
Author: easytraveler
Date: 03/03/2004, 09:36 pm
Message: Someone posted a long, long list of this guy's aliases. Could that be done again? I'd like to print it out and so get to know the many faces of {Name Deleted}. Thanks!
Author: johncharles
Date: 03/03/2004, 09:43 pm
Message: My heartfelt gratitude to all the members of the Fodor's posting community above for their kind words and support. I solicit the support of even more of the community for the positions above (including, most recently, Patrick's fine suggestion), which will be carried forward to those with decisionmaking power at Fodor's--whether or not the above is deleted again, as it was this morning.
Isn't it terrific that we continued to hear nothing all night from the predator, as CalGirl pointed out above? I have the feeling we won't see anything to comment on from him tonight either. I like CalGirl's perspective--part of the reason I changed the title of the above, to more accurately reflect what I'm calling for. If he had shown up, we might have been tempted to waste our breath on back and forth with him, instead of saving it to call on Fodor's to take some appropriate action, and most of all to warn the unwary when we see him victimizing them.
As Easytraveller has called for in another thread tonight--Borg Patrol!!
Author: grantop
Date: 03/03/2004, 10:04 pm
Message: Johncharles, Patrick & BayArea, thanks for working towards a solution.
Author: kikahead
Date: 03/03/2004, 11:52 pm
Message: Johncharles--I think I love you! Thank you for your post!!!
Author: questionmotives
Date: 03/04/2004, 12:38 am
Message: Here's your list of the nutjob's aliases, easytraveler:
{65 Names Deleted}
Author: janis
Date: 03/04/2004, 12:41 am
Message: easytraveler: The names he is using now are {8 Names Deleted}. There were even more screen names late last year but these seem to be the current ones.
Author: easytraveler
Date: 03/04/2004, 11:40 pm
Message: Thank you, johncharles!
You and Patrick must be Lead Borgs or Master Borgs or Sergeant Borgs!
Author: CalgirlSusan
Date: 03/05/2004, 12:13 am
Message: Maybe {Name Deleted}has been banned for good. I haven't seen any posts from her all night. But if I did, I'd ignore them. Good riddance.
Author: djkbooks
Date: 03/05/2004, 12:17 am
Message: It is utterly astonishing to me that anyone would invest the time and effort you have "johncharles", not to mention shouting in ALL CAPS.
All in all, any reasonably observant person who participates in this forum would be able to recognize obvious miscreants. Otherwise, they would be better served by the travel information available otherwise WITHIN this Fodors website with regard to their destination, or a simple web search, whereupon the plethora of information is nearly overwhelming. Not to mention dozens of fabulous printed tour guides at the local bookstore.
If I were to inquire about visiting my already planned and booked destination of San Francisco, only to be deluged with recommendations for San Jose, I would likely disregard same. Even if I found such posts interesting (which they never are), I would quickly figure out that the author of same was twisted.
I would venture to assume that anyone posting an inquiry herein is fully capable of considering all responses and determining those worthy of attention. Except for all those who just can't be bothered to research otherwise.
This forum is chock full of incredible tips and recommendations NOT found in all the websites and tour guides. One has be able to recognize same.
And, this Travel Forum is not a debate or popularity contest. Though, it seems there are many who have absolutely nothing better to do, at all times of the day and night, than to "express" their "opinions" (or frustrations) of every sort, even when they have nothing whatsoever relevant, valuable, or even interesting, to offer.
But, anyone can discern same.
All anyone has to do is simply IGORE the obvious trolls.
Anyone seriously researching their trip would know better than to pay any attention to them, and anyone wanting to be told where to go, what to see, etc... without checking any other resources whatsoever, or searching this forum... well, they're one their own.
Someone once said (wish I could remember who) "Advice - Wise men don't need it and fools don't heed it."
Patrick?
Author: questionmotives
Date: 03/05/2004, 12:22 am
Message: *Applause, applause!* Thank you johncharles, for keeping the pressure on Fodor's and not allowing them to just continue to delete away everyone's postings about this. There is mounting frustration here, just there was in the pre-registration days. Fodor's, you need to hear and understand this, not dismiss and delete it.
I half suspect that the perp is a girl too...or at least a man who wishes he was one. I picture him as a drag queen version of "Mommy Dearest" Joan Crawford, that ace abuser and manipulator. Big ole eyebrows, pancake makeup and red lipstick. And a five o'clock shadow, lol.
Author: easytraveler
Date: 03/05/2004, 12:57 am
Message: djkbooks: "I would venture to assume that anyone posting an inquiry herein is fully capable of considering all responses and determining those worthy of attention."
For those as intelligent or as knowledgeable as yourself, yes. And I don't mean this sarcastically.
However, there have been people who have been misled. Just today there is a second thread by a poster, "kirbysgirl", where she substituted San Jose (which was NOT on her list on the first thread) for San Francisco (which WAS on her first thread) because of advice from the multiple poster.
Maybe you will say that the majority of new posters will ignor the multiple poster's advice, but there will be a handful who will be misled.
I believe that there is a great deal of sincerity and of frustration from the regular posters here. The integrity of the advice given by all is degraded by all the false information and false accusations that are flying around. It is really too much for a person who comes on here maybe once in a while or for the first time to detect what is false and what is true in the complexity that has evolved.
I myself was caught off - guard when I was lumped in with all the other names of the "Borg", just because I said some positive things about San Francisco. So, how is a new/infrequent poster, who is ASKING for information on California, be able to be on guard for false information? Especially when that poster is not expecting to be misdirected?
Thus, I believe, that for most of the regular posters, there is severe discomfort that even ONE person would be misled.
Author: johncharles
Date: 03/05/2004, 01:28 am
Message: djk: first let me say that I can clearly see that you are a different person from the multiple names poster, and I take what you have to say seriously.
I think you will also see if you reread my salutation, however, that I was not shouting at you, or at any poster here. I was shouting at the person at Fodor's who has been indiscriminately destroying everything that I and my friends here have been trying to say for several days now, much of it not related to the many names poster at all. An entire thread which involved this person in no way was deleted just because I told Easytraveller that I liked some posts she'd written. I guess Fodor's did this in deference to the many names poster's accusation that any conversation between Easytraveller and me is just an attempt to cover up our being the same person. Fodor's deserves to hear some shouting over that action. I also just wanted to increase my chances of getting the attention of the person who would otherwise delete my post, that it had been sanitized of the naming of any individual, because I suspect that it is Fodor's rule that posters should stay away from uncivil personal attacks which is being used to justify these deletions. If it is just behavior which is being discussed, and no one is being singled out berated by name, then that should be recognized by Fodor's as something different. I feared that the deleter would quickly get the jist of the topic and delete the post without reading anything that was in regular size type. Now maybe there's some chance.
Your discussion of the research in other sources which people should do oddly echoes--almost word for word--what I've recommended to some of the unwary souls I've seen set upon by the multiple names poster, as an alternative for them to trying to count "votes" or sort out the echoed accusations which fly back and forth. So I agree with just about everything you say about what they should be doing. If all who come here for help had your sophistication, resourcefulness and good judgement concerning the need to research in a variety of sources, there would be no need for me to react to this behavior the way that I do.
But the people who come here are not all like that. In the past few months, again and again I've seen unsuspecting people swallow this guy's act whole, and announce they are changing their trip itineraries drastically, cancelling hotel reservations, and so on based solely on way off-base views and gross factual inaccuracies peddled with this multiple screen name ruse, which they mistake for the consensus of the Fodor's posting community.
I am in favor of ignoring him when he tries to draw those of us who are on to him into extended quarrels. That is indeed a waste of time. But I am not in favor of letting those who are not yet on to him fend for themselves. I strongly believe that those of us who have been around long enough to see what is happening have the responsibility not to leave them alone to be duped and cheated of the travel experience they should have. One reference to the situation per thread is all I advocate--so that they may apply the alertness which someone like you would not need any reminder to use.
Finally, djk, I have to ask: if my time is so misspent expressing myself on this as I have, and I should instead be walking away from it with no or minimal comment, why did you spend so much time and effort writing a post almost as long as one of mine to tell me so? Why did you even enter this thread, which I doubt anyone would, given its title, unless they knew what it was about and what they were getting into? If I should not get myself so upset by this guy's behavior, why so you seem so upset by my behavior in doing so? Why not just ignore this controversy, and me?
Author: easytraveler
Date: 03/05/2004, 01:38 am
Message: djkbooks: I would refer you to the thread "SF: Best hotel on Union Square" and read xnyxny's post. That is, if the thread hasn't been deleted already!
Author: johncharles
Date: 03/05/2004, 02:44 am
Message: Well, Easytraveler, if I am Sergeant Borg, then I think you are the Borg Queen.
While I was composing my characteristically overwordy reply to djk, unknown to me you were saying the same thing to him, better and much more succintly. Too bad I didn't see your post earlier; I wouldn't have had to answer at all.
I really have some hope that sanitizing the post of any mention of any of his names will remove the primary rationale Fodor's would give for their meat-ax deletions. Now it's about behavior, not pointing the finger "uncivilly" at anybody. And if he chooses to volunteer that it must be about him--that's his doing.
But probably I am too optimistic. I strongly suspect the folks doing the daily deletions are not those who are the ultimate decision-makers, and they are the ones before whom I will need to get the appeal for action.
You'll probably recognize that I've grafted a little bit of the world of Harry Potter into the Borg. "He whose name should not be spoken." I've Waldemortized him.
Author: johncharles
Date: 03/05/2004, 03:16 am
Message: Questionmotives, your post above makes me wonder if you've read "1st to Die" by James Patterson, which is set in S.F. I wouldn't have--not my usual sort of thing--but someone gave it to me as a gift. A central character has some strange echoes of the person Any of Whose Names Should Not Be Spoken, and especially of your speculations about that individual above. What's more, this character is obsessed with writing about himself (herself?) in the third person, as if a separate fictional character. And also, a four-person Borg seeks to entrap him or her. Then there's what happens at the beginning of the book when (s)he confronts an unwary couple who are making what he seems to feel is the ultimate Big Mistake: staying in a hotel in Union Square.....
Mar 6th, 2004, 08:00 PM
#8
I'd like to know how one can get so many names? I tried another and they would not let take another one. after a second and someone told it on another forum, so I dropped it and now another may have my identity
Mar 7th, 2004, 10:29 PM
#9
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Those familiar with the activities the multiple screen names poster who still think he is just an irritation, rather than harmful to those he encounters who aren't on to him, might want to check out the currently active thread(started by a poster unfamiliar with him and trying to make a travel decision)titled "Why did my post on San Francisco disappear?"
And if you don't care about whether Fodor's or the posting community does anything about him, why are you even here? If you think this guy's behavior should just be ignored, then ignore me too, with my thanks. You probably already knew what this thread was about from the title when you entered it. If not, it was apparent to you after a couple of sentences. There are plenty of other threads for you to participate in, and Fodor's has plenty of space for all of them. Why choose to spend your time in this one instead, dissing it? Unless you just enjoy the opportunity to jeer at somebody putting himself out there on the line, at least to a small extent, for the community.
I didn't repost the above to get new readers for it at this point. Probably most people who are interested in it read it the first time it was posted.
I have reposted it three times now as an act of civil disobediance after Fodor's keep deleting it (which is the reason for the last few words of its current title.) Partly, I have reposted it because I can't see why it should have been deleted, or what Fodor's rules it breaks. It seems to me instead to have been deleted as a heavy-handed attempt to surpress any criticism of how Fodor's editors have handled this.
And as posters janis and questionmotives correctly picked up in their comments (reposted above) after it was first reposted,its reposting is also an attempt to force the issue with Fodor's--that they need to confront the problem with a reaction responsibly targeted at this one easily identifiable abuser. They should not continue to punish those of us who complain about the abuse--and those innocent of any involvement in the controversy at all, whose posts or info just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. They should discontinue trying to sweep the problem under the rug with these inconsistent, indiscriminate and arbitrary deletions.
The ultimate question the repeated reposting of this thread may force on Fodor's is this: are they really going to decide to block my screen name, or my computer, and not the abuser's? Or will they finally decide it's time to target the source of the problem?
And if you don't care about whether Fodor's or the posting community does anything about him, why are you even here? If you think this guy's behavior should just be ignored, then ignore me too, with my thanks. You probably already knew what this thread was about from the title when you entered it. If not, it was apparent to you after a couple of sentences. There are plenty of other threads for you to participate in, and Fodor's has plenty of space for all of them. Why choose to spend your time in this one instead, dissing it? Unless you just enjoy the opportunity to jeer at somebody putting himself out there on the line, at least to a small extent, for the community.
I didn't repost the above to get new readers for it at this point. Probably most people who are interested in it read it the first time it was posted.
I have reposted it three times now as an act of civil disobediance after Fodor's keep deleting it (which is the reason for the last few words of its current title.) Partly, I have reposted it because I can't see why it should have been deleted, or what Fodor's rules it breaks. It seems to me instead to have been deleted as a heavy-handed attempt to surpress any criticism of how Fodor's editors have handled this.
And as posters janis and questionmotives correctly picked up in their comments (reposted above) after it was first reposted,its reposting is also an attempt to force the issue with Fodor's--that they need to confront the problem with a reaction responsibly targeted at this one easily identifiable abuser. They should not continue to punish those of us who complain about the abuse--and those innocent of any involvement in the controversy at all, whose posts or info just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. They should discontinue trying to sweep the problem under the rug with these inconsistent, indiscriminate and arbitrary deletions.
The ultimate question the repeated reposting of this thread may force on Fodor's is this: are they really going to decide to block my screen name, or my computer, and not the abuser's? Or will they finally decide it's time to target the source of the problem?
Mar 8th, 2004, 09:57 AM
#10
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johncharles:
IMHO what you are doing is building ill-will for you.
Your initial response got ALL of our attention and then your subsequent postings moved you into the "problem" category.
Johncharles I am all for civil disobedience but, this IS Fodor's site where you and I are invited guest.
If someone were aguest on your web-site and were using your tactics how would you feel? I do not think that you would cave into terriorist tactics or real agressive civil disobedience tactics under any circumstances.
Johncharles it's kinda like you have "Post Rage" which is offensive to all around you...
You simply can not continue with civil disobedience without being asked to leave yourself.
Yes, we could ignore you now but Johncharles, your actions are not contained to this one thread...
You are trying to goad Fodor's into doing what you think is in order and that does effect all of us who reply on these threads for travel planning, ideas and the like...so there you have it.
Maybe this is a good time to move on a plan your next adventure with all the great folks on this board who are still very eager to help you.
Johncharles I write this to "help" and not upset or offend you.
Life is too short for this and wouldn't you rather be travelling or planning to...?
Best Wishes,
Oaktown Traveler
IMHO what you are doing is building ill-will for you.
Your initial response got ALL of our attention and then your subsequent postings moved you into the "problem" category.
Johncharles I am all for civil disobedience but, this IS Fodor's site where you and I are invited guest.
If someone were aguest on your web-site and were using your tactics how would you feel? I do not think that you would cave into terriorist tactics or real agressive civil disobedience tactics under any circumstances.
Johncharles it's kinda like you have "Post Rage" which is offensive to all around you...
You simply can not continue with civil disobedience without being asked to leave yourself.
Yes, we could ignore you now but Johncharles, your actions are not contained to this one thread...
You are trying to goad Fodor's into doing what you think is in order and that does effect all of us who reply on these threads for travel planning, ideas and the like...so there you have it.
Maybe this is a good time to move on a plan your next adventure with all the great folks on this board who are still very eager to help you.
Johncharles I write this to "help" and not upset or offend you.
Life is too short for this and wouldn't you rather be travelling or planning to...?
Best Wishes,
Oaktown Traveler
Mar 8th, 2004, 10:06 AM
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Freedom of the press belongs to those who own the presses!
"johncharles" wrote:
"The ultimate question the repeated reposting of this thread may force on Fodor's is this: are they really going to decide to block my screen ..."
No. The ultimate question is will repeated postings force Fodors get so damn sick of this being carried on to no end that they dissolve the board completely. It's Fodors that pay to maintain these forums, and it's their UNLIMITED right to delete anything they damn please from it. And, by the way, my writings are so be used only in ORIGINAL postings .... not "republished" in the even Fodors deletes it.
"johncharles" wrote:
"The ultimate question the repeated reposting of this thread may force on Fodor's is this: are they really going to decide to block my screen ..."
No. The ultimate question is will repeated postings force Fodors get so damn sick of this being carried on to no end that they dissolve the board completely. It's Fodors that pay to maintain these forums, and it's their UNLIMITED right to delete anything they damn please from it. And, by the way, my writings are so be used only in ORIGINAL postings .... not "republished" in the even Fodors deletes it.
Mar 8th, 2004, 10:10 AM
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The OP is FAR more annoying with these incredibly long posts.
Consider reading or excercise rather than obsessing over multiple named posters.
I think it took me less time to read "John Adams" than it did to read the initial post.
Consider reading or excercise rather than obsessing over multiple named posters.
I think it took me less time to read "John Adams" than it did to read the initial post.
Mar 8th, 2004, 11:18 AM
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I love you johncharles. lol.
But I agree with others that you are adopting the tactics of the SJ Nutjob by reposting everyone's responses to demonstrate how everyone is behind you. Nutjob loves to repost the same long thread again and again, as if we are all glued to our computer screens rereading his ravings for the 1000th time.
Just repost your original thread without all the subsequent comments. And good for you for keeping the pressure on Fodor's. And you are right, if people REALLY did not care, they wouldn't bother to open your thread, read it, and then post their own comments.
But I agree with others that you are adopting the tactics of the SJ Nutjob by reposting everyone's responses to demonstrate how everyone is behind you. Nutjob loves to repost the same long thread again and again, as if we are all glued to our computer screens rereading his ravings for the 1000th time.
Just repost your original thread without all the subsequent comments. And good for you for keeping the pressure on Fodor's. And you are right, if people REALLY did not care, they wouldn't bother to open your thread, read it, and then post their own comments.
Mar 8th, 2004, 01:33 PM
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observation; why do all of you give up a nice weekend, especially the eveningg, to prosit back and forth with this johnchaz? The pathetic guys starts his rant Friday evening, and is still at it after midnight one or two days later. And even worse, he's brought all of you along with him. Isn't he like his nemesis that he's so obsessed about. Just an observation. Perhaps you're all obsessing, but whatever it is, it's not healthy.
Mar 8th, 2004, 01:46 PM
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As my neighbor in NY used to say, ENOUGH ALREADY!!!
JOHNCHARLES, you have crossed the line now into the same catagory as this mythical creature who preys on other threads. You, yourself, are annoying and someone to be ignored.
If you really wanted to contact Fodors, do it like a normal person, email them at [email protected].
I do sometimes, and they always answer me, you really should try it.
Stop littering these boards with this petty nonsense.
And now it seems you have attracted that which you seem to fear most, that individual
JOHNCHARLES, you have crossed the line now into the same catagory as this mythical creature who preys on other threads. You, yourself, are annoying and someone to be ignored.
If you really wanted to contact Fodors, do it like a normal person, email them at [email protected].
I do sometimes, and they always answer me, you really should try it.
Stop littering these boards with this petty nonsense.
And now it seems you have attracted that which you seem to fear most, that individual
Mar 8th, 2004, 03:40 PM
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Thank you, johncharles, you are obviously someone who cares about others and wants to make things right. I have to admit, I am an intermittent visitor to Fodors (mostly here when I'm planning a trip), so I'm not sure if the way you are going about it is the best way. However, it is obvious that your intentions are beyond reproach.
