Relocating to the West
Jun 5th, 2006, 11:14 PM
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Relocating to the West
I am 25 year old Black female who wants to move out West next year when I finish grad school. I am looking at Seattle and Portland as possibilities but I was wondering how the dating scence is for single Black women. I am open to dating outside my race as well. Other factors are that I want to live in a "walking city" with a good arts scene that has liberal minded people- I want to live in a blue state! Currently I live in Atlanta. I would move to NY but the cost of living is too high- I am getting my degree in social work so a lucrative salary is slim to none.
Jun 6th, 2006, 05:45 AM
#2
I think you'll find either city very much to your liking. Come visit both, and try to come not just in the summer but also in the winter or late fall/early spring. The towns have quite different "winter" personas than summer.
Jun 6th, 2006, 08:04 AM
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Gardy gives good advice.
Summers in the Pacific Northwest are, in my humble opinion, completely perfect: clear skies, warm days, cool nights, low humidity, no bugs.
Winters, though, can be rough on the psyche for some folks. It's not so much the rain (which isn't as copious as legend would have it) as the nearly solid overcast, week after week. Seattle (and Portland's) winter weather is one reason Starbucks originated here, as strong black coffee, and plenty of it, is one of the ways people cope.
It's hard to know whether you can deal with it until you've experienced it first-hand. If you can, come to visit for an extended period next, oh, January, after the holiday glow has dissipated. Stay a couple weeks at least, and see whether the drizzle, chill, and gloom bother you at all. If not: welcome to the PNW!
But also treat yourself to a week or so in late July, and enjoy some of the perfection, as well.
Hope that's of some help.
Fritzrl
Summers in the Pacific Northwest are, in my humble opinion, completely perfect: clear skies, warm days, cool nights, low humidity, no bugs.
Winters, though, can be rough on the psyche for some folks. It's not so much the rain (which isn't as copious as legend would have it) as the nearly solid overcast, week after week. Seattle (and Portland's) winter weather is one reason Starbucks originated here, as strong black coffee, and plenty of it, is one of the ways people cope.
It's hard to know whether you can deal with it until you've experienced it first-hand. If you can, come to visit for an extended period next, oh, January, after the holiday glow has dissipated. Stay a couple weeks at least, and see whether the drizzle, chill, and gloom bother you at all. If not: welcome to the PNW!
But also treat yourself to a week or so in late July, and enjoy some of the perfection, as well.
Hope that's of some help.
Fritzrl
Jun 6th, 2006, 09:36 AM
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Try asking Melanie McFarland, TV critic for the Seattle P-I. She's married, but might have some insights for you: [email protected]
Jun 6th, 2006, 11:57 AM
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Hi kvw---
I think you will find either city welcoming and congenial, as already noted. I will try to address your dating question (as to Seattle), although I can't do so from personal experience---I am neither young, nor Black, nor single. But I have friends and co-workers who are, as well as friends of my kids (who are your age). All say that the social/dating scene is active and lively---particularly if you are open to interracial dating. It probably helps if one is "outdoorsy", but that's not an absolute---there's plenty to do with the clubs, movies, and art scene.
I hope you'll follow Fritzrl's advice and come out for a look during the summer, when our weather is on its best behavior.
I'm not sure which city would offer more job opportunities, but I suppose that will become clear should you decide to make the move, as I hope you do. Good luck to you.
I think you will find either city welcoming and congenial, as already noted. I will try to address your dating question (as to Seattle), although I can't do so from personal experience---I am neither young, nor Black, nor single. But I have friends and co-workers who are, as well as friends of my kids (who are your age). All say that the social/dating scene is active and lively---particularly if you are open to interracial dating. It probably helps if one is "outdoorsy", but that's not an absolute---there's plenty to do with the clubs, movies, and art scene.
I hope you'll follow Fritzrl's advice and come out for a look during the summer, when our weather is on its best behavior.
I'm not sure which city would offer more job opportunities, but I suppose that will become clear should you decide to make the move, as I hope you do. Good luck to you.
Jun 6th, 2006, 12:56 PM
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Hi,
Seattle is a very blue city (only a single red PRECINCT in town in the 2004 presidential election).
If you venture just 60 miles east of Seattle you find fairly "red" country.
The Seattle rain is of the sort that convinces the wise ones to lose that umbrella they brought from their city of origin and work with a jacket with a hood on it. Our rain is NOT like you would have in the south - HARD rain for 15 minutes and then soon back to sunny again. Here the rain just comes very moderately for hours (or days, so it seems)
Upon reading your post, I am fearful that the cost of living IN Seattle proper would inspire you farther out in the suburbs than your vision. I suspect that you would do fine here, socially, if you lived convenient to the actual downtown Seattle area (ditto for Portland).
I'm sure Seattle would get high marks as a "walking city" (once you gear-up properly and take that umbrella out of your hand for your entire future here).
I'm trying to figure out how I could find words to wildly guess at what perceptions you'd have of Seattle or Portland that would be unique to Atlanta. A difficult task for me. I've been to Atlanta once, and I sensed a far more relaxed environment than I expected or knew back home in Seattle, racially speaking. I don't mean to imply that you'd find Seattle particularly race-conscious. I am just trying to envision the would-be differences between you moving to Seattle and me moving to Atlanta.
Sigh - maybe nobody ever has these conversations (successfully) because nobody really knows...
I sense that you'd be welcome and happy in any Seattle-proper neighborhood without any difficulties. I just have this impression that your life would be most fulfilling if you could live near to the downtown Seattle area (lets say, within 10 miles north, south or east). I just hope prices don't inspire you much beyond that.
Seattle is a very blue city (only a single red PRECINCT in town in the 2004 presidential election).
If you venture just 60 miles east of Seattle you find fairly "red" country.
The Seattle rain is of the sort that convinces the wise ones to lose that umbrella they brought from their city of origin and work with a jacket with a hood on it. Our rain is NOT like you would have in the south - HARD rain for 15 minutes and then soon back to sunny again. Here the rain just comes very moderately for hours (or days, so it seems)
Upon reading your post, I am fearful that the cost of living IN Seattle proper would inspire you farther out in the suburbs than your vision. I suspect that you would do fine here, socially, if you lived convenient to the actual downtown Seattle area (ditto for Portland).
I'm sure Seattle would get high marks as a "walking city" (once you gear-up properly and take that umbrella out of your hand for your entire future here).
I'm trying to figure out how I could find words to wildly guess at what perceptions you'd have of Seattle or Portland that would be unique to Atlanta. A difficult task for me. I've been to Atlanta once, and I sensed a far more relaxed environment than I expected or knew back home in Seattle, racially speaking. I don't mean to imply that you'd find Seattle particularly race-conscious. I am just trying to envision the would-be differences between you moving to Seattle and me moving to Atlanta.
Sigh - maybe nobody ever has these conversations (successfully) because nobody really knows...
I sense that you'd be welcome and happy in any Seattle-proper neighborhood without any difficulties. I just have this impression that your life would be most fulfilling if you could live near to the downtown Seattle area (lets say, within 10 miles north, south or east). I just hope prices don't inspire you much beyond that.
Jun 6th, 2006, 01:14 PM
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Northwest Male- I appreciate your candor. Yes, I defintely want to be in the city. I was looking into the Capitol Hill or Belltown areas b/c they are not quite as expensive as downtown. However, I don't mind living in a shoebox so maybe downtown could be an option. Location is everything.
Jun 6th, 2006, 01:40 PM
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KVW, Seattle and Portland are similar in some ways, but quite different in other areas. Portland is a River City, Seattle is an International Gateway and about twice the size of Stumptown.
Oregon & Washington are also two sides of the Same Coin. Different taxing systems, different philosophies, different ideas about what constitutes the Good Life.
Oregon & Washington are also two sides of the Same Coin. Different taxing systems, different philosophies, different ideas about what constitutes the Good Life.
Jun 13th, 2006, 11:44 AM
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Hi KVW9880,
One must be so tactful to offer candor... and it is an intimidating path to walk.
Capitol Hill would never present any significant race-related issues for you as it is the most diverse community in Seattle. Belltown would be fine too, and quite central to much of downtown. The bus system here is really adequate, and there are very few days in an average year where weather (hot or cold) prohibits reasonable comfort at bus stops.
Darn, I wish I could offer you clarity on topics you seek to gain a sense of, but I simply cannot pretend to equate ME visiting Atlanta to you moving to and living in Seattle.
I just know that Seattle will not seem any sort of a mistake for you in ways that are directly race-related. Now you might get here and be homesick, you might struggle to get just the job you want, and you might not be able to find your favorite items at stores for the first couple of months, but it won't be directly related to all things racial.
At any rate it would be a huge step for you... and perhaps a positive one on the grand scale of your future, but geez, you have to grow and mature so fast and so much to make those sorts of moves.
Seattle would welcome you with open arms (and gloomy skies for much of the winters).
Good luck!
One must be so tactful to offer candor... and it is an intimidating path to walk.
Capitol Hill would never present any significant race-related issues for you as it is the most diverse community in Seattle. Belltown would be fine too, and quite central to much of downtown. The bus system here is really adequate, and there are very few days in an average year where weather (hot or cold) prohibits reasonable comfort at bus stops.
Darn, I wish I could offer you clarity on topics you seek to gain a sense of, but I simply cannot pretend to equate ME visiting Atlanta to you moving to and living in Seattle.
I just know that Seattle will not seem any sort of a mistake for you in ways that are directly race-related. Now you might get here and be homesick, you might struggle to get just the job you want, and you might not be able to find your favorite items at stores for the first couple of months, but it won't be directly related to all things racial.
At any rate it would be a huge step for you... and perhaps a positive one on the grand scale of your future, but geez, you have to grow and mature so fast and so much to make those sorts of moves.
Seattle would welcome you with open arms (and gloomy skies for much of the winters).
Good luck!
Jun 13th, 2006, 01:15 PM
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I wouldn't characterize Seattle as a true walking city, unfortunately, BUT certain neighborhoods do have this quality. Capitol Hill would be the best. Fremont, Belltown and lower Queen Anne are also good. This city is very neighbhorhood oriented so as long as you live near your neighborhood's "downtown", you probably would be able to walk (or bus) to most everything you need.
Either the Seattle Times or Seattle P-I had a long series of dating articles, with reader forums, in the past year. You might trying searching these papers to see if the forums are still going to ask your dating questions.
Either the Seattle Times or Seattle P-I had a long series of dating articles, with reader forums, in the past year. You might trying searching these papers to see if the forums are still going to ask your dating questions.
Jun 14th, 2006, 11:29 AM
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Granted Seattle has lots of HILLS that many other towns don't have, and that isn't absolutely ideal for walking.
HOWEVER, one product of those hills is that the neighborhoods simply can't get as unsafe as they do in other cities, because the wealthy people always want the house on the hill with the view, and with hills all over, the other neighborhoods can't get too concentrated without a hill popping up.
I say that a woman is relatively safe walking around downtown/Belltown/Capitol Hill relative to cities of similar size elsewhere.
HOWEVER, one product of those hills is that the neighborhoods simply can't get as unsafe as they do in other cities, because the wealthy people always want the house on the hill with the view, and with hills all over, the other neighborhoods can't get too concentrated without a hill popping up.
I say that a woman is relatively safe walking around downtown/Belltown/Capitol Hill relative to cities of similar size elsewhere.
Jun 14th, 2006, 04:31 PM
#12
I think Seattle fits precisely what you are seeking. I would suggest Capitol Hill or the Central district as the neighborhoods to look for an apartment. The entire city may not be "walkable" but those areas plus downtown/Belltown certainly are. I believe the dating scene will be what you make it. How much you get out and put into meeting people.
Jun 14th, 2006, 10:59 PM
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Seattle is the whitest city I have ever seen in my life...its actually quite funny. I moved here from Chicago one year ago, and cant believe how white it is. Especially Capitol Hill and Belltown...most of the diversity is to be found in the Suburbs, where you will find all kinds of people, but for some strange reason the city itself has been taken over by all white people...visit and you will see what I mean.
Jun 15th, 2006, 10:10 AM
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To a former Chicago-ite, Seattle likely does appear to be more 'white' by comparison.
But that would also depend on where one lives, works and circulates within the city. In the North End (North of the I-90 'belt') especially, the casual observer would likely see a majority of Caucasian faces. In other areas of the city, that's not necessarily the case.
In addition, one must consider what the term 'white' means. Caucasians only? Or does Kevin consider those of Hispanic or maybe Asian-Caucasian heritage also to be 'white'. Regardless of how he categorizes a person's pale skin, does Kevin think being 'white' is a bad thing per se, or that Seattle has a predominently 'white' population is a negative attribute?
The important thing, for me (with Anglo-Germanic and some Native American in my personal genetic mix) is how the various ethnic backgrounds manage to get along in an urban environment. My own experience in Seattle is that we all manage to live together pretty well, and that there seem to be few, if any, chronic problems originating in some poisonous undercurrent of racism. Seattle's Black community is politically active (Norm Rice was a much-loved Black mayor), and appears to be about as economically well-off in general as any other ethnic population in town.
My own neighborhood (Columbia City) is actually noted locally as the most 'mixed' area, with a population evenly divided among 'white', Hispanic, Asian and African-American residents.
As a 'white' guy, I simply may be unable to detect whatever covert racism there is in the city. But I also regularly read several of the local ethnic newspapers, and only rarely do I read of hate crimes or similar problems caused solely by the difference in skin colors of the principals involved.
So, Kevin: is it only that you're amused by Seattle's apparent 'whiteness', or do you believe KVW will have problem if she moves here, simply because she's a Black woman? Just curious.
Fritzl
But that would also depend on where one lives, works and circulates within the city. In the North End (North of the I-90 'belt') especially, the casual observer would likely see a majority of Caucasian faces. In other areas of the city, that's not necessarily the case.
In addition, one must consider what the term 'white' means. Caucasians only? Or does Kevin consider those of Hispanic or maybe Asian-Caucasian heritage also to be 'white'. Regardless of how he categorizes a person's pale skin, does Kevin think being 'white' is a bad thing per se, or that Seattle has a predominently 'white' population is a negative attribute?
The important thing, for me (with Anglo-Germanic and some Native American in my personal genetic mix) is how the various ethnic backgrounds manage to get along in an urban environment. My own experience in Seattle is that we all manage to live together pretty well, and that there seem to be few, if any, chronic problems originating in some poisonous undercurrent of racism. Seattle's Black community is politically active (Norm Rice was a much-loved Black mayor), and appears to be about as economically well-off in general as any other ethnic population in town.
My own neighborhood (Columbia City) is actually noted locally as the most 'mixed' area, with a population evenly divided among 'white', Hispanic, Asian and African-American residents.
As a 'white' guy, I simply may be unable to detect whatever covert racism there is in the city. But I also regularly read several of the local ethnic newspapers, and only rarely do I read of hate crimes or similar problems caused solely by the difference in skin colors of the principals involved.
So, Kevin: is it only that you're amused by Seattle's apparent 'whiteness', or do you believe KVW will have problem if she moves here, simply because she's a Black woman? Just curious.
Fritzl
Jun 15th, 2006, 09:27 PM
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I am used to diversity. I am from a big city, Chicago. Walk around the University of Washington and you will see only whites and some asians. Walk around the streets of Capitol Hill or Belltown, or Wallingford, or Fremont - yes, the main popular areas of the city - and you will see all white people. If I were not white, I may feel like an outsider. And get a reality check: go to wikipedia.com and look at the demographics of the city. Dude, face it: this is an all white city for the most part. Im not saying thats bad, or good...it is just something I am not used of, especially in a city type environment. Like I said, it does not take any brains to see the diversity of this area are in its suburbs...the city is mostly rich white people (The median housing price in King County is 420K)
Jun 15th, 2006, 09:37 PM
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Yes, the minority population in Seattle is primarily Asian, but I think the Black population might be larger than some have suggested. Moreover, it really doesn't matter what color your skin is or what your background might be here--people do not judge by such shallow standards here--I couldn't live in a place where they do! The main drawback might be that the cost of living is higher in Seattle than Portland, but of the 2 cities, I'd pick Seattle, but that's just me.
Yes, by all means, check out both places. (you might even consider checking out match.com to meet up with some singles while you're checking them out to get a better idea from people in your age group--my daughter is 22 and she LOVES Seattle)
Good luck whatever you decide!
Yes, by all means, check out both places. (you might even consider checking out match.com to meet up with some singles while you're checking them out to get a better idea from people in your age group--my daughter is 22 and she LOVES Seattle)
Good luck whatever you decide!
Jun 16th, 2006, 06:51 AM
#17
I would take Kevin's posts with a grain of salt. Ever been to the Central District, Kevin? The University is not the city of Seattle. While statistically I'm sure Seattle is quite white, in reality it is mixed and accepting.
To my mind it would seem more important to the original question, that interracial dating is a non-issue for example. The city most certainly does have asian, hispanic, black people living in it's central neighborhoods. I am employed by a minority-owned professional business, and they would be highly offended by Kevin's remarks negating the influence of black culture here.
As mentioned above, I think more of a potential drawback could be the cost of living (since the original post said NYC was too high). Seattle is NOT cheap!
To my mind it would seem more important to the original question, that interracial dating is a non-issue for example. The city most certainly does have asian, hispanic, black people living in it's central neighborhoods. I am employed by a minority-owned professional business, and they would be highly offended by Kevin's remarks negating the influence of black culture here.
As mentioned above, I think more of a potential drawback could be the cost of living (since the original post said NYC was too high). Seattle is NOT cheap!
Jun 16th, 2006, 12:19 PM
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OK, Kevin. I took you up on your recommendation, and checked Wikipedia for demographic information about Seattle and some of the near suburbs. I'm responding to your challenge here partly because I find your fondness for misinformation to be a bit grating, but mostly because it's important to me that accurate information about my home is available to both visitors and prospective new residents. Perhaps your misperception is based on the fact that you've apparently not yet ventured further afield in Seattle than to neighborhoods in the northern end of the city.
So, here are my findings. To be sure, and to give you due credit, Wikipedia states that, with whites making up 73.4% of the population, Seattle has "...one of the highest percentages of whites for a major American city." However, Wikipedia also states, "The city also has one of the nation's highest percentages of multiracial ancestry." This rings true with my own experience, and I view that as a good thing.
Now, as to your claim that Seattle's suburbs are somehow *more* diverse than the city, I'm afraid you're mistaken, at least for economically middle- and upper-class suburbs.
My own check of local suburban demographics in Wikipedia – including Issaquah, Kirkland, Redmond, Shoreline, and Bellevue – revealed that all of those suburbs have *larger* white populations than Seattle proper. Issaquah is the greatest of these at 88%, Bellvue the least at 75%. Further, Seattle has the *highest* percentage of African-American citizens at 8.4% , Issaquah the least at .8%. Asian-Americans in Seattle comprise 13%, roughly on par with Redmond and Shoreline. Bellevue, a particularly affluent suburb, is higher at 18%, and Issaquah, again, has the fewest at 6%.
I could continue, but I believe I've made my point, and refuted yours.
Now, you could perhaps do a demographic review of middle- to lower-middle-class neighborhoods and suburbs (White Center in particular comes to mind) and find a different mix, one that has higher percentages of non-white residents. However, given that (a) rising housing costs in Seattle are rapidly driving folks of lower economic means out of the city, and (b) most non-white minorities unfortunately are still economically disadvantaged in this country compared to most white citizens, then it seems to me that focusing on less affluent areas around Seattle might result in a skewed view of the overall picture.
As with all research, though, you picks yer data and you takes yer choice. Mark Twain said, "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damnable lies, and statistics."
All that aside: I believe the point has already been made at least a couple of times in this thread that the ethnic mix here is not as important how the city overall handles that mix. The fact is that racial tensions in Seattle are generally quite low, given the size of the city, and that non-white newcomers to this city can easily and completely acculturate, as long as they continue to contribute to the general well-being. In Seattle, as they say, the rain falls on every head equally.
No, Seattle not a 'big city' like Chicago, and I truly hope it never becomes one, as my experience tells me that great urban size often brings even greater problems.
Fritzrl
So, here are my findings. To be sure, and to give you due credit, Wikipedia states that, with whites making up 73.4% of the population, Seattle has "...one of the highest percentages of whites for a major American city." However, Wikipedia also states, "The city also has one of the nation's highest percentages of multiracial ancestry." This rings true with my own experience, and I view that as a good thing.
Now, as to your claim that Seattle's suburbs are somehow *more* diverse than the city, I'm afraid you're mistaken, at least for economically middle- and upper-class suburbs.
My own check of local suburban demographics in Wikipedia – including Issaquah, Kirkland, Redmond, Shoreline, and Bellevue – revealed that all of those suburbs have *larger* white populations than Seattle proper. Issaquah is the greatest of these at 88%, Bellvue the least at 75%. Further, Seattle has the *highest* percentage of African-American citizens at 8.4% , Issaquah the least at .8%. Asian-Americans in Seattle comprise 13%, roughly on par with Redmond and Shoreline. Bellevue, a particularly affluent suburb, is higher at 18%, and Issaquah, again, has the fewest at 6%.
I could continue, but I believe I've made my point, and refuted yours.
Now, you could perhaps do a demographic review of middle- to lower-middle-class neighborhoods and suburbs (White Center in particular comes to mind) and find a different mix, one that has higher percentages of non-white residents. However, given that (a) rising housing costs in Seattle are rapidly driving folks of lower economic means out of the city, and (b) most non-white minorities unfortunately are still economically disadvantaged in this country compared to most white citizens, then it seems to me that focusing on less affluent areas around Seattle might result in a skewed view of the overall picture.
As with all research, though, you picks yer data and you takes yer choice. Mark Twain said, "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damnable lies, and statistics."
All that aside: I believe the point has already been made at least a couple of times in this thread that the ethnic mix here is not as important how the city overall handles that mix. The fact is that racial tensions in Seattle are generally quite low, given the size of the city, and that non-white newcomers to this city can easily and completely acculturate, as long as they continue to contribute to the general well-being. In Seattle, as they say, the rain falls on every head equally.
No, Seattle not a 'big city' like Chicago, and I truly hope it never becomes one, as my experience tells me that great urban size often brings even greater problems.
Fritzrl
Jun 16th, 2006, 08:47 PM
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Fritzrl-I like how you only reference the tony Eastside suburbs of Bellevue, Redmond, etc as your argument for the suburbs. Not a good choice for an argument. although I have to say it was sigh of relief to walk into the Bellevue Crossrods mall and see all kinds of nationalities for the first time in Seattle: indian, middle eastern, asian, black, etc..
And obviously you are the one with the problem in living in such a homogenous white place. How can you deny such an obvious fact. this place is like Utah...white and homogenous. There are only a few pocket non-white areas...very segregated, which I was also very sad and disappointed to see in what is usually known as an open-minded liberal city. Yes, there are a few exceptions, like Columbia City...but who the hell hangs out in Columbia City?
And obviously you are the one with the problem in living in such a homogenous white place. How can you deny such an obvious fact. this place is like Utah...white and homogenous. There are only a few pocket non-white areas...very segregated, which I was also very sad and disappointed to see in what is usually known as an open-minded liberal city. Yes, there are a few exceptions, like Columbia City...but who the hell hangs out in Columbia City?
Jun 16th, 2006, 09:56 PM
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The reason why there are more "white" people in Seattle is because it is so cloudy there most of the year and people are not exposed to the sun very much. During the summer, there are more "black" people around. It's definitely a seasonal thing.
Seattle is a very tolerant city (not so much the suburbs). That's because there are so many Scandinavians living there.It's either the perpetual fish or the dill that they have in their diet that makes them so tolerant. I haven't figured out which yet.
Since slavery never quite spread to the West, most Westerners have a different view of blacks than those states where slavery flourished. Maybe I'm wrong about this, maybe it's just the great stretches of sand and beach which makes Westerners not care too much what the color of your skin is. Maybe I'm very wrong about this, maybe it's just the salmon that Pacific Northwesterners eat which makes them so tolerant. Maybe, maybe...
kvw: don't sweat it too much. Just come out here and have a good time in the West. Prejudice is in the eye of the beholder - it could be in your eye, so just don't bring it along.
Have a great time whichever city you choose, Seattle or Portland. You can't go wrong.
easytraveler
(who lives in California)
Seattle is a very tolerant city (not so much the suburbs). That's because there are so many Scandinavians living there.It's either the perpetual fish or the dill that they have in their diet that makes them so tolerant. I haven't figured out which yet.
Since slavery never quite spread to the West, most Westerners have a different view of blacks than those states where slavery flourished. Maybe I'm wrong about this, maybe it's just the great stretches of sand and beach which makes Westerners not care too much what the color of your skin is. Maybe I'm very wrong about this, maybe it's just the salmon that Pacific Northwesterners eat which makes them so tolerant. Maybe, maybe...
kvw: don't sweat it too much. Just come out here and have a good time in the West. Prejudice is in the eye of the beholder - it could be in your eye, so just don't bring it along.
Have a great time whichever city you choose, Seattle or Portland. You can't go wrong.
easytraveler
(who lives in California)
