People who relocated from your home town: Do you find the people different than back home?
Feb 8th, 2002, 12:24 PM
#41
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I just don't buy the theory that people in small towns chit chat people in big cities don't. I alos don't buy th theory that the reason people in the NE aren't as chitchatty is because everyone lives in such close proximity. I used to live in a large city in the south, I went to school at Emory in Atlanta and then lived in a different area of Atlanta for 5 years after I graduated. I moved to Chicago 2 years ago (supposedly the "friendly" big city) and I can see a complete difference in attitude. It is NOT the size of the city.
In the south (even in a city like Atlanta) everyone smiles at everyone else and small talks with people they don't know. People ask you how you are and chat about the weather etc. Men open doors for you, give up seats and so on.
I have not encountered this at all in Chicago. Not to say people are not friendly, I made made several friends with coworkers and such, but it seems if I try to strike up a converstion with the mailman, dry cleaner, cashier or whatever they look at me like I'm crazy and brush me off. If you know someone here they are friendly, if not they couldn't care less about having a conversation with you. You can just forget most guys stepping aside and opening doors for you or standing up when you get on the train.
I really like Chicago, but I long for the friendly mannerly ways of the south.
In the south (even in a city like Atlanta) everyone smiles at everyone else and small talks with people they don't know. People ask you how you are and chat about the weather etc. Men open doors for you, give up seats and so on.
I have not encountered this at all in Chicago. Not to say people are not friendly, I made made several friends with coworkers and such, but it seems if I try to strike up a converstion with the mailman, dry cleaner, cashier or whatever they look at me like I'm crazy and brush me off. If you know someone here they are friendly, if not they couldn't care less about having a conversation with you. You can just forget most guys stepping aside and opening doors for you or standing up when you get on the train.
I really like Chicago, but I long for the friendly mannerly ways of the south.
Feb 8th, 2002, 12:46 PM
#43
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Actually, I found that people in the South were nosy, talked to people but to find out stuff about them in order to gossip to friends.People in the NE seem to have more on their minds than who the neighbor is bonking so they might not be the chit chatty type, maybe they are more interested in real friendships not these shallow chats that some poeple think are so important in life.
Feb 8th, 2002, 01:07 PM
#44
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posted by Amanda - "I alos don't buy th theory that the reason people in the NE aren't as chitchatty is because everyone lives in such close proximity."
The best thing about a theory is that it invites people to throw darts at it, so I welcome the dissent. Perhaps what I meant to say is that it isn't just the size of the city, but the culture around which cities of a certain size developed.
For example, the south was largely rural until the early 20th century. Even Atlanta, which was only founded in the mid 1800's, was pretty much a sleepy smaller city until post-WW2. As a result, the south has held onto its more rural tendencies, small-town manners, importance of religion in the public forum, etc. So even though Atlanta is a fairly large place it has been built around a culture in which certain social conventions were practiced.
The north, on the other hand, has been largely industrial since the early/mid-1800's. Its cities have always been teeming with waves of newcomers piled 20 or 30 to a tenement who don't speak the previous wave's language or practice the same religion. There are just too many people squeezed into some places that it's hard to care about making eye contact with everyone you come across. The end result is that our small-town values have been replaced with "you talkin to me?"
Don't get me wrong, I am not condoning boorish behavior or say that one way is better than another. Merely posing a theory. Now, get those darts ready and throw away.
The best thing about a theory is that it invites people to throw darts at it, so I welcome the dissent. Perhaps what I meant to say is that it isn't just the size of the city, but the culture around which cities of a certain size developed.
For example, the south was largely rural until the early 20th century. Even Atlanta, which was only founded in the mid 1800's, was pretty much a sleepy smaller city until post-WW2. As a result, the south has held onto its more rural tendencies, small-town manners, importance of religion in the public forum, etc. So even though Atlanta is a fairly large place it has been built around a culture in which certain social conventions were practiced.
The north, on the other hand, has been largely industrial since the early/mid-1800's. Its cities have always been teeming with waves of newcomers piled 20 or 30 to a tenement who don't speak the previous wave's language or practice the same religion. There are just too many people squeezed into some places that it's hard to care about making eye contact with everyone you come across. The end result is that our small-town values have been replaced with "you talkin to me?"
Don't get me wrong, I am not condoning boorish behavior or say that one way is better than another. Merely posing a theory. Now, get those darts ready and throw away.
Feb 8th, 2002, 01:28 PM
#48
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Cathy, each area is a composite of many things that have influenced the area. What you like will be affected by where you came from and your own social nature. All have their pros and cons. Yes, the two areas can be that different - that's what makes the US so special. Do what one poster suggested and find something to join. Get involved. That should help considerably. Once you become familiar, you'll find the kids you know are respectful to their families (for the most part) and many of the people you see won't be strangers anymore. Good luck.
Feb 8th, 2002, 01:30 PM
#49
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Hey, not every city in the northeast has cold, unfriendly people. Last year, Buffalo was rated the friendliest city in America by USA Today. That's because they ARE friendly. Believe me, we have a lot of "howyadoin" types, but the "howyadoin" is usually followed by conversation - generally about the weather, the Sabres game, etc. You would think that the people here would be cold - we're a relic of the industrial/immigrant/tenement days, and the winters alone could make you tense. But despite our decline and our problems, the people are great!!!
Feb 8th, 2002, 01:45 PM
#50
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I moved to Montreal, where I lived for 5 years. It was not a city where people said "hi" to one another on the streets. Of course, French is spoken by about 65% of residents, English 15% and other 20%, so the question of being outwardly friendly in a midwest USA sort of way almost seems ludicrous, as you really don't know what language the people around you speak. (In smaller Quebec towns, people do make small-talk more...but in French.)
I found that people in Montreal were less social walking around than people in New York City even. Instead, there was a place and a time to socialize...going out dancing, at house parties, at neighborhood bars, at restaurants regularly frequented, getting a hair cut. People would meet one another at groups of common interest: a political party, a social issues group, a salsa/merengue dance class, etc... In these situations, I found people were incredibly friendly and were very open to foreigners as well as other ideas and world views. I find people in the major northeast cities (Phila., NYC, Baltimore, Boston) in my experience are pretty similar to Montrealers.
Incidentally, I made numerous Montrealer friends who are still my friends 2 1/2 years after I left. Have fun in Boston and join a group that interests you. DAN
I found that people in Montreal were less social walking around than people in New York City even. Instead, there was a place and a time to socialize...going out dancing, at house parties, at neighborhood bars, at restaurants regularly frequented, getting a hair cut. People would meet one another at groups of common interest: a political party, a social issues group, a salsa/merengue dance class, etc... In these situations, I found people were incredibly friendly and were very open to foreigners as well as other ideas and world views. I find people in the major northeast cities (Phila., NYC, Baltimore, Boston) in my experience are pretty similar to Montrealers.
Incidentally, I made numerous Montrealer friends who are still my friends 2 1/2 years after I left. Have fun in Boston and join a group that interests you. DAN
Feb 8th, 2002, 01:55 PM
#51
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About 7 years ago, when my family lived in a Houston suburb, my husband had a man visiting his office from Boston. My husband said something about National Night Outthat evening, and having to get home for it. The other guy said "You mean everybody is going home just to go outside and talk to their neighbors? Get outta heah!!"
Feb 8th, 2002, 02:13 PM
#52
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I congratulate everyone on keeping this thoughtful and mostly civil, and I strongly agree with those who have taken the time to look at factors that may explain differences in social patterns.
One problem here is the word "friend" and similarly "friendly, friendliness," etc. It means different things to different people from culture to culture. What Tulsans think is "friendly" to a Bostonian may seem like superficial pro forma niceties. What Bostonians think is "friendship" may be a level of intimacy that Tulsans might find way too intrusive.
I absolutely think density of population, age of community, degree of industrialization, etc. all have something to do with it. I also think the heritage of the area may be relevant so let me just toss this out as an idea:
Much of the South has a legacy of French or even Mediterranean culture, while the northeast tends to be more British isles. Think of a French garden: formal, inviting but with strict rules. The French love the presentation and style of things and disapprove of things without polish and politesse. Think of a British garden: informal with hidden nooks and crannies, natural but not easy to figure out sometimes. The Brits distrust form without content and sometimes avoid style in favor of something "honest."
I've spent a lot of time in the midwest and south, grew up in the northeast. I'm culturally northeastern so I'm used to expecting friends to be close, sincere, honest, loyal, in it for the long haul, and able to tolerate and share opinions and transgressions.
I found midwesterners preferring conversation that didn't rock the boat, that was optimistic and booster-ish, nothing too intimate, nothing too opinionated, nothing too "pretentious." Friends had lunch together and provided hot dishes on the right occasions. (BTW Bennie -- some people have explained midwestern news patterns in terms of the need for pioneering communities to survive, so the news has to be all positive and "booster"-ish to keep the town going.)
I find southerners largely concerned about greasing the social wheels, but a great deal goes on behind closed doors. For them, that's where a lot of that stuff belongs. But they let off social steam through "Steel Magnolia" kinds of ploys -- backhanded compliments, snubs, blackballing the ones who just are "one of us."
I now talk easily to baggers in the grocery store in the south, where it's expected; and I like the idea that I may have cheered up someone, even when I'm in the north. But then, after I've been back in the north for a while, I remember how I felt when a stranger spoke to me in NYC or Boston. I got nervous: "what does he want? Is he alright? Maybe he's a little unbalanced."
Suzy, I applaud YOUR honesty in expressing the northern impatience with chitchat. It feels like I'm in a banana republic when I have to shmooze a southern hardware store clerk before I ask for a kind of valve for something, lest he'll think I'm a pushy northern bitch and purposely give me the wrong one -- all with a smile as RX describes.
But then I can feel very isolated in a northern hardware store when someone just throws the right valve at me with a frown as if I'd wasted his time even asking.
This behavior -- please note -- isn't a matter of friendship. And "manners" is just a word that means rules for behavior. No one area's rules are the standard against which to judge other areas.
The trick, Cathy, is to figure out the rules, appreciate what you've gained in the new set of rules, and try not to be too sensitive about what you've lost.
And don't take every instance of bad behavior as further proof of the awfulness of Boston unless you also add up all the instances of niceness as proof that you've found some new friends.
One problem here is the word "friend" and similarly "friendly, friendliness," etc. It means different things to different people from culture to culture. What Tulsans think is "friendly" to a Bostonian may seem like superficial pro forma niceties. What Bostonians think is "friendship" may be a level of intimacy that Tulsans might find way too intrusive.
I absolutely think density of population, age of community, degree of industrialization, etc. all have something to do with it. I also think the heritage of the area may be relevant so let me just toss this out as an idea:
Much of the South has a legacy of French or even Mediterranean culture, while the northeast tends to be more British isles. Think of a French garden: formal, inviting but with strict rules. The French love the presentation and style of things and disapprove of things without polish and politesse. Think of a British garden: informal with hidden nooks and crannies, natural but not easy to figure out sometimes. The Brits distrust form without content and sometimes avoid style in favor of something "honest."
I've spent a lot of time in the midwest and south, grew up in the northeast. I'm culturally northeastern so I'm used to expecting friends to be close, sincere, honest, loyal, in it for the long haul, and able to tolerate and share opinions and transgressions.
I found midwesterners preferring conversation that didn't rock the boat, that was optimistic and booster-ish, nothing too intimate, nothing too opinionated, nothing too "pretentious." Friends had lunch together and provided hot dishes on the right occasions. (BTW Bennie -- some people have explained midwestern news patterns in terms of the need for pioneering communities to survive, so the news has to be all positive and "booster"-ish to keep the town going.)
I find southerners largely concerned about greasing the social wheels, but a great deal goes on behind closed doors. For them, that's where a lot of that stuff belongs. But they let off social steam through "Steel Magnolia" kinds of ploys -- backhanded compliments, snubs, blackballing the ones who just are "one of us."
I now talk easily to baggers in the grocery store in the south, where it's expected; and I like the idea that I may have cheered up someone, even when I'm in the north. But then, after I've been back in the north for a while, I remember how I felt when a stranger spoke to me in NYC or Boston. I got nervous: "what does he want? Is he alright? Maybe he's a little unbalanced."
Suzy, I applaud YOUR honesty in expressing the northern impatience with chitchat. It feels like I'm in a banana republic when I have to shmooze a southern hardware store clerk before I ask for a kind of valve for something, lest he'll think I'm a pushy northern bitch and purposely give me the wrong one -- all with a smile as RX describes.
But then I can feel very isolated in a northern hardware store when someone just throws the right valve at me with a frown as if I'd wasted his time even asking.
This behavior -- please note -- isn't a matter of friendship. And "manners" is just a word that means rules for behavior. No one area's rules are the standard against which to judge other areas.
The trick, Cathy, is to figure out the rules, appreciate what you've gained in the new set of rules, and try not to be too sensitive about what you've lost.
And don't take every instance of bad behavior as further proof of the awfulness of Boston unless you also add up all the instances of niceness as proof that you've found some new friends.
outhern blackballing, of course I mean someone who just is NOT "one of us."
Feb 9th, 2002, 12:25 AM
#56
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Cathy; I'm from the Northeast and have lived out west for 20 years. My partner of the past several years is a southerner from Memphis. We've had a lot of counseling about our two different ways of communicating. Even after 20 years in the west--and I have mellowed, A LOT-- I can still be blunt and impatient with absolutely no time for sensitivity when I'm busy. He, on the other hand takes an hour to finish a sentence (exaggeration, but you get the point) . To make a long story short, I have learned to listen better and have patience with him and he has come to understand that sometimes I can be too blunt and he knows that it's just geo-cultural. (I just made that word up)
Also, and I know this is going to sound odd, but I moved to Santa Fe from Southern California and had a difficult time with the people here at first. Californians,at least the ones I ran in to are very friendly--perhaps a bit superficial--but I liked it. Especially compared to the northeast. In Santa Fe, a small town, people are gossipy but not as friendly and sociable as you would think. Kind of klicky. In other words, I understand your problem. I think it can happen anywhere when you move from one location to another. But, frankly, someone else said this too, my friends from Boston are true blue. Give them some time. They have a different "style" of communicating and after awhile you'll get used to it and you might even like it better!
Also, and I know this is going to sound odd, but I moved to Santa Fe from Southern California and had a difficult time with the people here at first. Californians,at least the ones I ran in to are very friendly--perhaps a bit superficial--but I liked it. Especially compared to the northeast. In Santa Fe, a small town, people are gossipy but not as friendly and sociable as you would think. Kind of klicky. In other words, I understand your problem. I think it can happen anywhere when you move from one location to another. But, frankly, someone else said this too, my friends from Boston are true blue. Give them some time. They have a different "style" of communicating and after awhile you'll get used to it and you might even like it better!
Feb 9th, 2002, 05:29 AM
#57
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Well, Nostress, yes, small talk does cause me stress. Not the extreme sort of stress, but more the annoyance level. I wrote the sentence you quoted, in response to a poster who asserted that small talk and other such "niceness" was emotionally nourishing, and I just wanted to point out that such was not the case for everyone, that some of us find it draining rather than positive.
So, when the guy who is bagging my groceries starts to chat instead of bagging the damn groceries, when he comments on what I'm wearing (see above comment from Southerner Molly, who actually took such a compliment seriously and it even made her day better, yikes!), then yes, that's something I'd rather not have to cope with. I deeply and truly do not care what the grocery bagger thinks of what I'm wearing (why would I?) and don't want to hear from them. Just shut up and do your job so I can get my frozen food home before it thaws.
As "Transplant" so eloquently pointed out, here in Boston we have our own concepts of "nice" and "friendly", which happen to not include nonsense banter between strangers. I do think that a store clerk who treats a customer sullenly and throws valves at them has overstepped even the Bostonian standards of reserve, however.
So, when the guy who is bagging my groceries starts to chat instead of bagging the damn groceries, when he comments on what I'm wearing (see above comment from Southerner Molly, who actually took such a compliment seriously and it even made her day better, yikes!), then yes, that's something I'd rather not have to cope with. I deeply and truly do not care what the grocery bagger thinks of what I'm wearing (why would I?) and don't want to hear from them. Just shut up and do your job so I can get my frozen food home before it thaws.
As "Transplant" so eloquently pointed out, here in Boston we have our own concepts of "nice" and "friendly", which happen to not include nonsense banter between strangers. I do think that a store clerk who treats a customer sullenly and throws valves at them has overstepped even the Bostonian standards of reserve, however.
Feb 9th, 2002, 06:04 AM
#59
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This is a great exchange. "Transplant" you hit a number of really good points.
Let me add just one more. No matter what part of the country (or the globe) you are talking about, it takes a while for a newcomer or "outsider" to be drawn into the "original" community, so that the place feels like home. The more stable population of the place (the fewer transients), the harder it may be to develop connections - not necessarily because people are hostile but because they have already got a system of friends and habits with those friends. And it takes a newcomer a while to get their bearings, not just where the grocery store is, but what it carries (which differs around the country), where the grocery carts go, and how the baggers are going to behave.
The time it takes to get acclimated and integrated into the social patterns is really variable, but a year has always been the very, very minimum -- more like 2-5 years before you feel that this is home and these people are your community, and they feel like you've "always" been there, like them.
Cathy -- 8 months is way too soon for you to make up your mind, because you and the people around you are really not used to each other yet. You're at the tough, not-a-tourist-anymore but not-a-local-either stage.
You haven't even gone through all 4 seasons yet, and for New Englanders, season is an important part of life. You've been through fall and winter, when it's cold and dark and people huddle close to hearth and home and get cranky because of slush and cold. I'll bet you're cranky partly because of that too. Hang in there, give it a chance, spring is coming.
And if after another year or so, you still feel the Tulsa in you makes Boston the wrong place for you to live, then fair enough - don't try to stay there if you have a choice. "Home" is definitely a matter of the heart and it's hard to "remake" your heart.
But be wary of deciding the "problem" is with everyone else around you and finding all kinds of fault with them. As I have learned the hard way from several moves over my life, it's me/you who are different from all of them. What will it say about you if you just rant at the people around you for all the ways they aren't what you are used to, and decide it's because a whole region of the country is just a crummy place with crummy people?
Let me add just one more. No matter what part of the country (or the globe) you are talking about, it takes a while for a newcomer or "outsider" to be drawn into the "original" community, so that the place feels like home. The more stable population of the place (the fewer transients), the harder it may be to develop connections - not necessarily because people are hostile but because they have already got a system of friends and habits with those friends. And it takes a newcomer a while to get their bearings, not just where the grocery store is, but what it carries (which differs around the country), where the grocery carts go, and how the baggers are going to behave.
The time it takes to get acclimated and integrated into the social patterns is really variable, but a year has always been the very, very minimum -- more like 2-5 years before you feel that this is home and these people are your community, and they feel like you've "always" been there, like them.
Cathy -- 8 months is way too soon for you to make up your mind, because you and the people around you are really not used to each other yet. You're at the tough, not-a-tourist-anymore but not-a-local-either stage.
You haven't even gone through all 4 seasons yet, and for New Englanders, season is an important part of life. You've been through fall and winter, when it's cold and dark and people huddle close to hearth and home and get cranky because of slush and cold. I'll bet you're cranky partly because of that too. Hang in there, give it a chance, spring is coming.
And if after another year or so, you still feel the Tulsa in you makes Boston the wrong place for you to live, then fair enough - don't try to stay there if you have a choice. "Home" is definitely a matter of the heart and it's hard to "remake" your heart.
But be wary of deciding the "problem" is with everyone else around you and finding all kinds of fault with them. As I have learned the hard way from several moves over my life, it's me/you who are different from all of them. What will it say about you if you just rant at the people around you for all the ways they aren't what you are used to, and decide it's because a whole region of the country is just a crummy place with crummy people?
!
