Agreed wholeheartedly about The Red Cat (Tenth above 23rd). Its sister restaurant, The Harrison (corner of Greenwich Street and Harrison), is also pretty good. And, one of our favorite Red Cat waiters, Kinston Rushing, has moved on to Market Table (corner of Carmine and Bedford), another good choice.

Quick note about Pearl Oyster Bar, 18 Cornelia Street: they don't take reservations or AmEx. Their lobster rolls and shoestring fries are to die for! Cornelia Street, one block long, is home to a number of notable places, including one called, natch, Home.

I don't want to quibble, but I thought the original question was
"1. Kosher/deli for someone who's never eaten good Jewish food."

And the lower budget was also an important factor.

I didn't expect a discussion on what deli has the BEST Jewish food -- but thought it was really about which would be the better bargain and which would be the best "experience" for a novice. I still maintain that someone who doesn't really know Jewish food would enjoy the TOTAL EXPERIENCE and the prices at Katz's more than at the Second Avenue Deli. But to each his own.

There are so few genuine Jewish delis left. I am assuming that the 2nd Ave fans like Katz's as well, just a shade less.

As for genuine, the atmosphere at Katz's is clearly more fun but when you add the side dishes (as described above) at 2nd Ave plus things like cholent, chicken fricassee, stuffed derma, and stuffed cabbage, you get true view of traditional Ashkenazi (Jewish Eastern European) cooking.

Yes 2nd Ave deli is expensive but we often share sandwiches and other portions and never leave hungry.

The two midtown delis Stage and Carnegie have saddly become tourist destination. The deabte when Koch was Mayor was which was the best in NYC.

I also think you are udners estimating at least some tourists who want to know the differences. When we travel, we always want to know about the local food. The first answer is do you want to go where the tourists go or where the locals go.

OK. So you're suggesting only locals go to 2nd Avenue and only tourists go to Katz? Say what?????

I understand your point, but let's face it, Katz's is NOT just a tourist destination, so I have no idea why you even bring that up here. I guess I could understand it if someone had suggested Stage or Carnegie. And I don't know what you mean by underestimating some tourists. I was only speaking to the original poster here who clearly said they have never had good Jewish food -- I missed her request for a finished education of the fine points of it, or any indication they were looking for unusual side dishes rather than probably ordering the very basics. Maybe I was wrong to assume they'd end up just ordering standards like pastrami, but I sincerly doubt that. And as you mention the atmosphere at Katz's is "more fun" -- by a long shot -- which I assumed was a BIG part of this particular search. Maybe not.

My end of the conversation is over. My words are being twisted and your premise has moved.

No. You are wrong. My premise has not moved. It just seemed that you failed to understand the reasoning for the original recommendation (since I didn't explain it then), so it seemed more explanation was in order. And now I have done that -- without changing the reasoning for recommending it! But then I realize you can never let any of my NYC recommendations go without trying to "correct" them or point out that I am a tourist not a local, even when it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.


And if it's "twisting your words" to indicate that you were suggesting Katz is more of a tourist place and 2nd Avenue is more of a locals' place, then why on earth would you have brought up the whole tourist/local issue anyway? Oh yes, I know why. Auduchamp you are amazingly good at recommending fantastic NYC places to eat and we all appreciate that, including some fantastic full lists of them -- but you really should get over the idea that anyone who doesn't live in NYC can't have a good idea as well or that everyone visiing NYC has the same goal in mind. What one might recommend for one person is not always the same as what you might recommend for another. I'm not sure why that is so hard to understand. Just like the time you called me a hypocrite, supposedly because I stirred one poster away from one restaurant and stirred another towards the same one just a few days apart. Their goals were totally different. While someone looking for the "best Italian in NYC" might be steered away from Carmine's, a person taking a group of hungry teens before a show with a very meager budget could well be steered towards it. Get it?

I am certainly not an expert, but we enjoyed these restaurants in NYC:

• Palma, 28 Cornelia Street, 212 691 2223, www.PalmaNYC.com. (I think we were still in Greenwich?) A friend who lives in Greenwich recommended it. We were able to get a table, because it was early in the evening. It's a very low-key elegant place, in a contemporary and minimalist style-- if that makes sense. We had a very nice dinner there.

• I think two women would be comfortable at the Knickerbocker Bar and Grill, 33 University Place, at 9th and University, 212 228 8490. We would have stayed for dinner, as the menu looked great and the atmosphere was cozy, but we weren't hungry yet. Very nice place.

• Look for little restaurants in the Time Square area, by walking a few blocks west from the Marriott, on West 46th Street and vicinity. It's close enough to Rockefeller Center to walk there from Top of the Rock.

There are restaurants in every doorway, and each looked great. Very nice looking Italian and French restaurants on that block. (Don't choose Danny's Grand Sea Palace, at 346-348 West 46th Street, though. It was just ok.)

• Sushi Samba 7, on 7th Avenue at Barrow Street. http://www.sushisamba.com/top.html
A fun vibe and good food. Sushi with a twist.

mclaurie and nytraveler:

You're right; it is a hostel. We stayed here before, which is the one reason we're going back. We're used to hostelling (we both lived in Europe for a long time), so we're okay with the idea. It was a decent enough place--I found that most of the comments on the website were just that: people who hadn't done the hostelling thing before and didn't know what to expect. We had a very friendly staff who provided us with locked storage and a free room upgrade when our room wasn't ready, so we figured one more go wouldn't hurt. Thanks for looking out for us! We'll keep everyone posted on the trip's end (if I can ever find the time to get together a triplog)

PamSF: Great suggestion! I'm the teacher of the two of us and your suggestion is right up my alley. My unfinished doctoral dissertation is on urban communities and their roles in Modernist literature, so this is just the thing I'm looking for. Best friend is a former history major, so it would be in keeping with her interests, as well. I might be able to bring back some more information for my English classes.

Best Friend is the novice when it comes to Jewish food; that's why I was looking for something that would get the point across. We like to look for where the locals go, especially since we trust locals' judgement. We've got enough time and meals to eat that we could probably hit both!

Thanks to everyone for the gustatory reviews. We appreciate it greatly. We'll do the same in return if anyone's ever, for God knows what reason, interested in coming down to the greater Harrisburg, PA metropolitan area!

One more thing: I've been trying to find the M & I grocer with the international food selection, but can't seem to locate directions or further information. Basingstoke2 (or anyone), where do we go/how do we get there?

M&I International Foods is in Brighton Beach, Brooklyn in the Little Odessa neighborhood. If you care to visit the area, take the B line of the subway and get off at the Brighton Beach station. It is about an hour from Manhattan. I suggested the Little Odessa area because you say that you will be in NY for a week so most likely you will have the time, and this is a truly ethnic neighborhood with food that you are not too likely to find elsewhere. I believe it may be the largest Russian community outside of Russia itself. If not the largest, it is one of the largest and IMO very interesting and a lot of fun.

The idea of the Tenement Museum is brilliant. It not a museum in the usual sense. Rather there are tenement tours having different themes, so you can go several times without seeing the same thing twice.

The Katz vs 2nd ave deli debate has been going on for years among New Yorkers, (I was born, raised, and attended University there, but haven't lived in the city for many years although I visit very often). My own preference is 2nd ave for the reasons given by Aduchamp, but I would suggest that you just go to the one that is most convenient to where you happen to be when you want lunch. Really, you can't go wrong with either one. Also as mentioned, Sammy's Rumanian also has fans.

Hey everyone--

We're just back as of yesterday and, after much cleaning up, unpacking, prepping something to teach tomorrow and doing a little work in general, I'll try to get a trip report posted on here. But we had a GREAT time and I just wanted to take a minute to thank everyone for the suggestions you provided us. We took you up on so many of them and our experience was that much more rewarding. We even left with a 'things to do when we go back' list, which is a wonderful thing, IMO.

But just to give you a taste of what's to come, we were too stuffed to finish our positively delicious Socarrat paella, we will have to go back to take the remaining three tours at the Tenement Museum, we ended up at Katz because it was closest (and became fans of Reubens, which we NEVER thought would happen), discovered the beauty of the 6 Local, walked the Brooklyn Bridge just as the sun came out and spent too much time at Ellis Island. And that was in addition to some fantastic shopping deals, a deep fried Mars bar that we haven't had since grad school in Glasgow and discovering we prefer McNally Jackson to Shakespeare and Co.