Holocaust Museum/Yes or No?
Jun 27th, 2001, 11:07 AM
#22
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But, ilisa, the USA is INNOCENT with regards to the Holocaust. Yes, it is true that the Roosevelt Administration kept their knowledge of the Holocaust close to the vest during the war. However, Germany would not have been defeated one second sooner if the FDR Administration had let it be known that Germany was exterminating as many Jews as it possibly could. Over 300,000 American men died defeating GERMANY'S evil regime in World War Two. America need not feel ANY shame for what the Germans perpertrated in World War Two.
Jun 27th, 2001, 11:16 AM
#24
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Maybe Germany would not have been defeated one second sooner, but maybe had the US done somethng, many of us would have our families. Also, shame? Honestly, did it ever occur to you that the museum exists as a learning tool? Fancy that. A museum which teaches something.
Jun 27th, 2001, 12:07 PM
#25
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OK, now I get it. For the U.S. to have a museum or exhibit, the U.S. must be GUILTY of something in connection with the subject matter. So a museum isn't a place of learning -- it is a national confessional.
So that means we could never have a museum examining, say, the use of atomic weapons in WWI against Japan because most Americans believe the U.S. did nothing wrong in using them. The Smithsonian recently killed an exhibit on the Enola Gay. Maybe Roger's logic had something to do with it.
And England had better clean out all that Egyptian nonsense from the British museum. Unless England is prepared to admit they are GUILTY of something, that is. Then they can keep it, I guess.
The museum biz is more complex than I thought. I always thought you could have a museum if you had something significant to display. Guess I was way off base there.
So that means we could never have a museum examining, say, the use of atomic weapons in WWI against Japan because most Americans believe the U.S. did nothing wrong in using them. The Smithsonian recently killed an exhibit on the Enola Gay. Maybe Roger's logic had something to do with it.
And England had better clean out all that Egyptian nonsense from the British museum. Unless England is prepared to admit they are GUILTY of something, that is. Then they can keep it, I guess.
The museum biz is more complex than I thought. I always thought you could have a museum if you had something significant to display. Guess I was way off base there.
Jun 27th, 2001, 12:13 PM
#26
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One of the reasons we have this museum in DC is the reality of Jewish politcial and social power and presence in the US, and the insistence that our country create ways for us never to forget what occurred in the 1930's and 1940's. Personally I do believe there are some who suggest a worldwide shame, which the US would share ... reflective of the world's inaction when reports of the Holocaust began. To have the museum in DC is important. How irrelevant the debate over the nationality of the dead and suffering. Personally, I think we ought to create a second memorial, to all who have died when powers sought to depopulate entire cultures. Ciao
Jun 27th, 2001, 12:25 PM
#27
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Back to travel tips.
There is a museum in Modoc national park chronicaling the disappearance of the Modoc indian tribe after its war with the US government. Fascinating and worth a visit.
There is a museum near Mammoth Lakes about the Japanese internment experience.
The best museum about the Indians is in Victoria, BC. It tells the history of the British Columbia indians before, during and after the arrival of the europeans. Totally awesome! This is a don't miss, cancel all other plans experience.
Are there any more that I should add to my museum tour?
Gerry
There is a museum in Modoc national park chronicaling the disappearance of the Modoc indian tribe after its war with the US government. Fascinating and worth a visit.
There is a museum near Mammoth Lakes about the Japanese internment experience.
The best museum about the Indians is in Victoria, BC. It tells the history of the British Columbia indians before, during and after the arrival of the europeans. Totally awesome! This is a don't miss, cancel all other plans experience.
Are there any more that I should add to my museum tour?
Gerry
Jun 27th, 2001, 01:33 PM
#28
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To Ilisa and the others who have responded to Roger/Steve (likely the same person), don't you get it? Roger/Steve is having a great time baiting you. There is no point debating this issue with him. Let's just stop responding so that this thread stops coming to the top and just disappears.
Jun 27th, 2001, 02:41 PM
#30
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The museum was great. The AAA book said to allow about 3 hours. We were lucky to get 10am tickets, and still hadn't seen everything when they closed down.
If nothing else, the museum serves to cause reflection on what the results of ignorance, hate, and bigotry can do. And it's also relevant to current events too, as there's a display on some of the man-made famine in Sudan right now, used as a form of genocide.
Maybe the Native American Museum will focus on the atrocities that European settlers caused on this continent? I've been to the one in NYC, but that seems to be focused more on N.A. art, rather than history.
Conclusion: yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
If nothing else, the museum serves to cause reflection on what the results of ignorance, hate, and bigotry can do. And it's also relevant to current events too, as there's a display on some of the man-made famine in Sudan right now, used as a form of genocide.
Maybe the Native American Museum will focus on the atrocities that European settlers caused on this continent? I've been to the one in NYC, but that seems to be focused more on N.A. art, rather than history.
Conclusion: yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Jun 28th, 2001, 03:52 AM
#32
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ilisa,
How was the American government going to save Europe's Jewry without defeating those responsible for killing them? Fly thousands of 747s to Auschwitz and the rest, ask the Nazis to hand over the Jews, and then fly back home again? Come on. About the only thing FDR and Churchill could of, and I think should of done differently, is not have announced that unconditional surrender of Germany was the Allies' ultimate goal. If the German officer corps, many of whom despised Hitler, had thought that the Allies would be willing to accept a negotiated surrender, maybe a military coup would have been successfulpre-1945.
How was the American government going to save Europe's Jewry without defeating those responsible for killing them? Fly thousands of 747s to Auschwitz and the rest, ask the Nazis to hand over the Jews, and then fly back home again? Come on. About the only thing FDR and Churchill could of, and I think should of done differently, is not have announced that unconditional surrender of Germany was the Allies' ultimate goal. If the German officer corps, many of whom despised Hitler, had thought that the Allies would be willing to accept a negotiated surrender, maybe a military coup would have been successfulpre-1945.
Jun 29th, 2001, 08:08 AM
#33
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Everybody honest with themselves knows that Jews have an inordinate amount of power in this country. This is especially true with television, communications, Hollywood, politics, law and big education. We have a Holocaust museum solely on that basis. Americans Jews want a Holocaust museum so that they can brow beat American whites, especially Christians.
Jun 29th, 2001, 10:10 AM
#36
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This is in response to Emmy's comment earlier about the Japanese Internment. While it is true that it is not an entire museum, the Smithsonian has had a large permanent exhibit about this period of American history since about 5 years ago. It is a very well done exhibit that tries to make the point that we need to learn from our mistakes.
Jul 11th, 2001, 06:12 AM
#38
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There is something deeply bigoted about people who zero in on this issue as one worthy of extended discussion. Why even raise it unless you are hostile from the outset; Roger raised it to oppose it.
You can certainly note that Holocaust survivors and their descendants constitute a notable segment of the American population, just as the descendants of many other refugees are now Americans.
But yes, the US does deserve some shame regarding the Holocaust -- the US media were absolutely silent about the mounting atrocities in Germany until very, very late in the day, and one wonders if we would have entered the war at all without Pearl Harbor, or at least until a sub actually fired on Cape Cod.
We also deserve shame for complicity or malign neglect regarding several other kinds of holocaust, but that doesn't negate the merit of a Holocaust Museum (note it's a museum, not a memorial), just because it's specific to one example. If anything, it justifies it as a testament to the capacity of any group of humans for mayhem in the name of some obfuscatory "higher" ideal.
Having observed Roger's other posts, I would say his "ideals" are generally questionable anyway. He's not worth taking seriously, but this discussion has yielded some good points of debate. I'm just sorry that people get away with raising the question as if it's simply a neutral query. It's not and never will be.
You can certainly note that Holocaust survivors and their descendants constitute a notable segment of the American population, just as the descendants of many other refugees are now Americans.
But yes, the US does deserve some shame regarding the Holocaust -- the US media were absolutely silent about the mounting atrocities in Germany until very, very late in the day, and one wonders if we would have entered the war at all without Pearl Harbor, or at least until a sub actually fired on Cape Cod.
We also deserve shame for complicity or malign neglect regarding several other kinds of holocaust, but that doesn't negate the merit of a Holocaust Museum (note it's a museum, not a memorial), just because it's specific to one example. If anything, it justifies it as a testament to the capacity of any group of humans for mayhem in the name of some obfuscatory "higher" ideal.
Having observed Roger's other posts, I would say his "ideals" are generally questionable anyway. He's not worth taking seriously, but this discussion has yielded some good points of debate. I'm just sorry that people get away with raising the question as if it's simply a neutral query. It's not and never will be.
Jul 11th, 2001, 07:59 AM
#40
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Dear Testament,
Had you lived back in the 40s, would you have volunteered to lay down YOUR life on a suicidal attack on Nazi Germany in, say, 1942 before the USA was prepared to make a thrust into Germany? Germany was defeated and the concentration camps were liberated in 1945 because a lot of men laid down their lives to defeat an incredibly evil but militarilly strong regime. Nazi Germany would not have been defeated one second sooner if the American government and media had revealed what was happening in the concentration camps. Grow up, Testament.
Had you lived back in the 40s, would you have volunteered to lay down YOUR life on a suicidal attack on Nazi Germany in, say, 1942 before the USA was prepared to make a thrust into Germany? Germany was defeated and the concentration camps were liberated in 1945 because a lot of men laid down their lives to defeat an incredibly evil but militarilly strong regime. Nazi Germany would not have been defeated one second sooner if the American government and media had revealed what was happening in the concentration camps. Grow up, Testament.
